Does God love all mankind and does He wish to save everyone
- Thread starter Slayer
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Back in the old testament God changed Jacob's name to be called Israel (Gen 35:10). The nation of Israel was God's chosen nation up to this point (Rom 11:32). Jacob, whose name is now Israel, is representative of God's chosen people (the elect). The "ALL" in Rom 11:32 is all of God's chosen people as represented by Jacob who is now called Israel. Not all mankind! Gen 49:2 further indicates that Jacob's name is Israel. Deut 32:9, For the Lord's portion is his people, Jacob is the lot of his inheritance. Only the elect (sheep) have eyes to see and ears to hear, not the natural man described in 1 Cor 2:14.
Red herring. Gods love for fallen man far exceeds mans comprehension. For while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
Jude 1 ¶ Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
Preserved in Christ which is saved then called which is elect. You continue to foolishly place election before salvation. The saved are elect but not all will be saved by their choice. These prefer sin over righteousness as John 3:20.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Jude 1 ¶ Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
Preserved in Christ which is saved then called which is elect. You continue to foolishly place election before salvation. The saved are elect but not all will be saved by their choice. These prefer sin over righteousness as John 3:20.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
reneweddaybyday,
re: "Please read through the whole thread, rstrats. That way you will understand what it is that I believe and what it is that Slayer believes."
My question is not about what Slayer believes. It's about how you know that he had the ability to consciously choose to believe or not believe what is written in Romans 1.
And with regard to what you believe, I'm simply asking if you believe you have the ability to consciously choose to believe things? That's a yes or no question which shouldn't require a reading of 423 previous posts.
re: "Please read through the whole thread, rstrats. That way you will understand what it is that I believe and what it is that Slayer believes."
My question is not about what Slayer believes. It's about how you know that he had the ability to consciously choose to believe or not believe what is written in Romans 1.
And with regard to what you believe, I'm simply asking if you believe you have the ability to consciously choose to believe things? That's a yes or no question which shouldn't require a reading of 423 previous posts.
Again incorrect comprehension of biblical doctrine on your part. God foreknew Esau and Jacob but God did not compel Esau to make the choice that he made.
You confuse foreknowledge with election. Correlation is not causation. Elephants are grey and mice and grey but mice are not elephants just because they are grey.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
You confuse foreknowledge with election. Correlation is not causation. Elephants are grey and mice and grey but mice are not elephants just because they are grey.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The "ALL" in Rom11:32 refers to how the entire chpts 9-11 is contrasting "Israel [singular nation]" and "Gentiles [plural nations]".
Then look in Deut32:36-43, especially the phrase "his people" in verses 36 and 43, and note that in verse 43 it says, "Rejoice, O ye nations [plural / Gentiles], with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people." This is an eschatological context (like in Romans 11:15,25-29 regarding "Israel's" future [i.e. which is earthly; the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom]).
Then look in Deut32:36-43, especially the phrase "his people" in verses 36 and 43, and note that in verse 43 it says, "Rejoice, O ye nations [plural / Gentiles], with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people." This is an eschatological context (like in Romans 11:15,25-29 regarding "Israel's" future [i.e. which is earthly; the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom]).
rstrats,
You first responded to Post #410 submitted by me on 9/4/2018. Slayer started this thread on 7/27/2018. He and I have been discussing for over a month and now you want to insert yourself into an ongoing conversation. It would be better for you to go back through those 423 previous posts you don't want to bother with in order to understand both sides of the discussion.
However, the short answer to your question "with regard to what [ I ] believe" is as follows:
From Post #367:
God gives every man, woman, and child what is needed in order to not reject Him.
Those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness and reject in spite of God having given to him or her what is needed will have no excuse when they find themselves cast into the lake of fire.
From Post #371:
I have stated over and over in this thread (and many others) that I believe God allows mankind to reject Him. You cannot deny that some reject God. I have shown you how those who reject God reject ... they suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18). God allows this to occur and those who reject will be dealt with as, how, and when God determines.
God tells us that it is the goodness of God which leads to repentance (Rom 2:4). The goodness of God is on display for all mankind to see and hear and smell and taste and touch. God's love is all encompassing and it is revealed throughout all of His creation. Some reject God and turn from His goodness and they remain unrepentant.
It is your claim that those who remain unrepentant remain so because God did not give them what is needed to repent.
It is my claim that God does give what is needed in order to repent and those who do not repent remain unrepentant because they reject God's goodness as they suppress the truth in unrighteousness. When they suppress the truth in unrighteousness, they are without excuse because God's eternal power and Godhead is fully on display throughout His creation.
If you want to join the discussion between Slayer and me, please review the prior posts beginning on page 1 of this thread. Thank you.
You first responded to Post #410 submitted by me on 9/4/2018. Slayer started this thread on 7/27/2018. He and I have been discussing for over a month and now you want to insert yourself into an ongoing conversation. It would be better for you to go back through those 423 previous posts you don't want to bother with in order to understand both sides of the discussion.
However, the short answer to your question "with regard to what [ I ] believe" is as follows:
From Post #367:
God gives every man, woman, and child what is needed in order to not reject Him.
Those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness and reject in spite of God having given to him or her what is needed will have no excuse when they find themselves cast into the lake of fire.
From Post #371:
I have stated over and over in this thread (and many others) that I believe God allows mankind to reject Him. You cannot deny that some reject God. I have shown you how those who reject God reject ... they suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18). God allows this to occur and those who reject will be dealt with as, how, and when God determines.
God tells us that it is the goodness of God which leads to repentance (Rom 2:4). The goodness of God is on display for all mankind to see and hear and smell and taste and touch. God's love is all encompassing and it is revealed throughout all of His creation. Some reject God and turn from His goodness and they remain unrepentant.
It is your claim that those who remain unrepentant remain so because God did not give them what is needed to repent.
It is my claim that God does give what is needed in order to repent and those who do not repent remain unrepentant because they reject God's goodness as they suppress the truth in unrighteousness. When they suppress the truth in unrighteousness, they are without excuse because God's eternal power and Godhead is fully on display throughout His creation.
If you want to join the discussion between Slayer and me, please review the prior posts beginning on page 1 of this thread. Thank you.
Actually, Jacob did more bad things than Esau. As for God's foreknowledge goes, we all would have gone to hell, if God had not intervened. Ps 53:2-3, God looked down from heaven on the children of men to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back; They are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
It amazes me how you can read 1 Cor 2:14 and say that the natural man, void of the Spirit, can understand spiritual things, when it factually states that the natural man can not discern spiritual things. The natural man can not suppress the truth if he does not understand the truth, which is spiritual. You must harmonize "ALL" of the scriptures.
I, also, have told you many times that the natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14 can not understand or make a connection of an "eternal power and Godhead" by the natural, physical realm of God's creation. On the other hand, God's children who have been shown some truths by the revelation of the Spirit can, indeed, suppress those truths they have been shown, in unrighteousness. You do not understand how depraved by nature that the children of God can be.(ps 53:2-3). If it was my belief that I would have to let God save me eternally by my good works, I would be trying to give the natural man the ability to believe in a spiritual God. I am so thankful that God has revealed to me that his Son finished his work on the cross to save all of those that he choose before the world began and gave them to Jesus to be their sacrifice.
Then you reject what is written in Scripture.
Even Calvin acknowledged that Rom 1:20 speaks of God being revealed through the natural, physical realm.
Here is what Calvin wrote in his Commentary on Romans [bold, underline mine]:
Even Calvin acknowledged that Rom 1:20 speaks of God being revealed through the natural, physical realm.
Here is what Calvin wrote in his Commentary on Romans [bold, underline mine]:
God is in himself invisible; but as his majesty shines forth in his works and in his creatures everywhere, men ought in these to acknowledge him, for they clearly set forth their Maker: and for this reason the Apostle in his Epistle to the Hebrews says, that this world is a mirror, or the representation of invisible things. He does not mention all the particulars which may be thought to belong to God; but he states, that we can arrive at the knowledge of his eternal power and divinity