Does man have a freewill ?
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I directly quote Scripture very frequently and it gets ignored, contradicted, and outright denied.
You make it sound like you do not even read my posts. And it sounds like that is what you are doing because you
favour the man made tradition and vain philosophy of free will for which there are zero verses. Check yourself.
You make it sound like you do not even read my posts. And it sounds like that is what you are doing because you
favour the man made tradition and vain philosophy of free will for which there are zero verses. Check yourself.
God tells us we are laborers together with Him ... that is one of God's chosen means from time of Adam to today and in the future ... I'm not just making stuff up, Cameron143.
God uses the believer to reach the unbeliever.
The believer is free to keep his or her mouth shut ... if this occurs, nothing for God to increase.
The unbeliever is free to suppress the truth in unrighteousness when a believer speaks the truth of God's Word ... if this occurs, nothing for God to increase.
The unbeliever who does not suppress the truth in unrighteousness when a believer speaks the truth of God's Word ... God can bring increase. After hearing the Word of truth, trust blossoms as God brings increase [In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise - Eph 1:13] ... hear – trust – believe – sealed ... that's the sequence.
The point is that God's Word spoken from the lips of the believer is one of the means God uses to draw people to Himself.
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God uses the believer to reach the unbeliever.
The believer is free to keep his or her mouth shut ... if this occurs, nothing for God to increase.
The unbeliever is free to suppress the truth in unrighteousness when a believer speaks the truth of God's Word ... if this occurs, nothing for God to increase.
The unbeliever who does not suppress the truth in unrighteousness when a believer speaks the truth of God's Word ... God can bring increase. After hearing the Word of truth, trust blossoms as God brings increase [In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise - Eph 1:13] ... hear – trust – believe – sealed ... that's the sequence.
The point is that God's Word spoken from the lips of the believer is one of the means God uses to draw people to Himself.
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God doesn't use people to draw men to Himself. He employs human agency to share the gospel. God uses the word to produce hearing, and hearing to produce faith...faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Individuals may share the gospel, but it is the word of God, hence God, who produces faith. That is why the one who waters and plants are nothing. God does the work that yields faith.
And I never said you were making anything up. I've only said man's part in salvation is insignificant. God doesn't need us to save anyone.
Like many here, you believe salvation is a choice. An individual audibly hears the gospel and chooses whether they want to believe it or not. This is not what the word of God teaches. Scripture teaches that faith comes when the Spirit of God employs the word of God and faith is birthed in an individual. That's what it means by faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Word of God produces hearing.
Hearing produces faith.
The work that produces salvation is the work that God does. As His people, He welcomes us into a love relationship with Him, and then invites us to join Him in the work He is doing. But the work that yields faith is all God.
And I never said you were making anything up. I've only said man's part in salvation is insignificant. God doesn't need us to save anyone.
Like many here, you believe salvation is a choice. An individual audibly hears the gospel and chooses whether they want to believe it or not. This is not what the word of God teaches. Scripture teaches that faith comes when the Spirit of God employs the word of God and faith is birthed in an individual. That's what it means by faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Word of God produces hearing.
Hearing produces faith.
The work that produces salvation is the work that God does. As His people, He welcomes us into a love relationship with Him, and then invites us to join Him in the work He is doing. But the work that yields faith is all God.
It depends on what you mean by Free will.
I would say no we do not, but my definition of free will is very Pelagian in that we can will ourselves to do anything like perfect memory recall, choose to be unaffected by emotions, choose to act without compulsion or restraint of any ability, etc. when people say free will they believe they mean that we have some, though not all, agency, which I coined as limited moral agency. We can choose some things but we cannot choose all things. I cannot choose my family, my genetics, my race, my gender, etc
I would say no we do not, but my definition of free will is very Pelagian in that we can will ourselves to do anything like perfect memory recall, choose to be unaffected by emotions, choose to act without compulsion or restraint of any ability, etc. when people say free will they believe they mean that we have some, though not all, agency, which I coined as limited moral agency. We can choose some things but we cannot choose all things. I cannot choose my family, my genetics, my race, my gender, etc
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Please provide the post where I said you did.
Do you agree that the natural man is a slave to sin? A lover of darkness? Refusing to come into the light
because his deeds are evil? That his heart is incurably wicked? That he suppresses the truth in unrighteousness?
That he is hostile toward God? You almost made it sound like you disagree with people being born as children of
wrath as a result of being born after Adam. And we are not talking to unbelievers right now.
Do you agree that the natural man is a slave to sin? A lover of darkness? Refusing to come into the light
because his deeds are evil? That his heart is incurably wicked? That he suppresses the truth in unrighteousness?
That he is hostile toward God? You almost made it sound like you disagree with people being born as children of
wrath as a result of being born after Adam. And we are not talking to unbelievers right now.
Before regeneration, which I believe is how men are set free by Christ,, we are slaves to sin. Paul indicates that here Rom 6:20
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
The words Ye were both times are in the imperfect tense, it was a continuous repeated state, you couldnt do any righteousness while in that state.
So a person wouldn't be able to stop being a slave to sin, and start doing righteous, like turning by his or her own freewill and repent towards God and put Faith in Jesus Christ. If you can do that, congratulations, you set your own self free and started doing righteous. 2
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
The words Ye were both times are in the imperfect tense, it was a continuous repeated state, you couldnt do any righteousness while in that state.
So a person wouldn't be able to stop being a slave to sin, and start doing righteous, like turning by his or her own freewill and repent towards God and put Faith in Jesus Christ. If you can do that, congratulations, you set your own self free and started doing righteous. 2
So he employs love when he refuses to allow a non elect person even the possibility to recieve him?
Again, If his grace is irrisistable ( we have no choice) then he forces people.
On chose to believe, one chose to remain in unbelief.
Context is Jesus telling Nicodemus and us how to be born again
He used Moses and the bronze serpent as an example. we should heed
1. The bronze serpent was there for all
2. The offer of salvation was there for all
3. Those who chose to obey God (look) in faith lived
4. Those who chose not to look in faith (unbelief) died.
choice is in the whole passage.
there is no faith without repentance. Those who believe have repented. Those who do not believe have failed to repent.
The gospel sent to the world is a gospel of repentance and forgiveness of sin. they are intertwined
Luke 24:47
and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Jesus even said, he did not come to call the righteous (religions people who think they are righteous. ie pharisees and others) but sinners to repentance
Mark 2:17
When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”
The bible also said you could have remained in unbelief and rejected the savior
Whether you believe it or not. You chose to say yes to God as apposed to choosing to say no
most people do not see it that way, but sadly with Calvin or fatalistic theology, we are forced to bring choice into the conversation. if it was not that, it would not even be a question (in my view)
Again, If his grace is irrisistable ( we have no choice) then he forces people.
On chose to believe, one chose to remain in unbelief.
Context is Jesus telling Nicodemus and us how to be born again
He used Moses and the bronze serpent as an example. we should heed
1. The bronze serpent was there for all
2. The offer of salvation was there for all
3. Those who chose to obey God (look) in faith lived
4. Those who chose not to look in faith (unbelief) died.
choice is in the whole passage.
there is no faith without repentance. Those who believe have repented. Those who do not believe have failed to repent.
The gospel sent to the world is a gospel of repentance and forgiveness of sin. they are intertwined
Luke 24:47
and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Jesus even said, he did not come to call the righteous (religions people who think they are righteous. ie pharisees and others) but sinners to repentance
Mark 2:17
When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”
The bible also said you could have remained in unbelief and rejected the savior
Whether you believe it or not. You chose to say yes to God as apposed to choosing to say no
most people do not see it that way, but sadly with Calvin or fatalistic theology, we are forced to bring choice into the conversation. if it was not that, it would not even be a question (in my view)
If God does not give them a chance. they do have an excuse.
You can't blame a person if you did not give them an out. while you give others an out.
If two people commit murder. and stand before a judge with a death penalty. and the judge gives one the ability to repent and be set free. But does not give the other the option.
is that a righteous judge?
The answer is no..
You can't blame a person if you did not give them an out. while you give others an out.
If two people commit murder. and stand before a judge with a death penalty. and the judge gives one the ability to repent and be set free. But does not give the other the option.
is that a righteous judge?
The answer is no..
This is a quote taken from Malachi,
Mal 1: “I have loved you,” says the Lord.
“Yet you say, ‘In what way have You loved us?’
Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?”
Says the Lord.
“Yet Jacob I have loved;
3 But Esau I have hated,
And laid waste his mountains and his heritage
For the jackals of the wilderness.”
The context are two nations.
Jacob = the nation of Israel (in the text. God confronted them, and said they asked in what way have you loved US . not him (Jacob the baby)
Esau = the nation of Edom - God laid waste the nation because they turned from God. and they went after his people Israel.
the prophet was not talking about 2 babies in the womb before they were even born, he was talking about 2 nations who came out of those babies.
this is but one of many hugely misinformative interpretation of Romans 9 from the fatalistic point of view.
Yes, that's exactly what God does. you have to look at the text quoted to get context of what was said before you can determine what the author who is using the words is saying
yeah he can, and he has determined, it is not his please to slay the wicked. or put them to death
It is his will that whoever sees and believes will not be judged, and pass from death to life (john 5 with John 6)
again, i repeat.
so God holds one up.
and tears the other down..
is this a God of love?
The answer is no
Mal 1: “I have loved you,” says the Lord.
“Yet you say, ‘In what way have You loved us?’
Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?”
Says the Lord.
“Yet Jacob I have loved;
3 But Esau I have hated,
And laid waste his mountains and his heritage
For the jackals of the wilderness.”
The context are two nations.
Jacob = the nation of Israel (in the text. God confronted them, and said they asked in what way have you loved US . not him (Jacob the baby)
Esau = the nation of Edom - God laid waste the nation because they turned from God. and they went after his people Israel.
the prophet was not talking about 2 babies in the womb before they were even born, he was talking about 2 nations who came out of those babies.
this is but one of many hugely misinformative interpretation of Romans 9 from the fatalistic point of view.
Yes, that's exactly what God does. you have to look at the text quoted to get context of what was said before you can determine what the author who is using the words is saying
yeah he can, and he has determined, it is not his please to slay the wicked. or put them to death
It is his will that whoever sees and believes will not be judged, and pass from death to life (john 5 with John 6)
again, i repeat.
so God holds one up.
and tears the other down..
is this a God of love?
The answer is no
Jesus said I did not come to call the righteous (in context the pharisees) to repentance but sinners, those who are dead. slaves to sin.
Being a slave to sin does not mean a person can not see their sin, in fact the same passage in romans 1 you quoted says they do not there sin and they are rightely judged.. Which is why they suppress the truth.
which is why God has to come to us.. to draw us. to save us. which he came to do.. he came to save the world. not judge it.. He came that it "MIGHT BE SAVED"
there is nothing in the text that says those he came to save would be saved. the Aorist Passive Subjunctive. It speaks of a possibility, not a direct reality. he did not say he died for the word so they will be saved, but that they might be saved.
Being a slave to sin does not mean a person can not see their sin, in fact the same passage in romans 1 you quoted says they do not there sin and they are rightely judged.. Which is why they suppress the truth.
which is why God has to come to us.. to draw us. to save us. which he came to do.. he came to save the world. not judge it.. He came that it "MIGHT BE SAVED"
there is nothing in the text that says those he came to save would be saved. the Aorist Passive Subjunctive. It speaks of a possibility, not a direct reality. he did not say he died for the word so they will be saved, but that they might be saved.
Those who believed God that by looking at the serpent would heal them looked at the serpent. They did make a choice to look based on whether they believed or not. But their belief came when God spoke.
Faith isn't dependent upon repentance. Repentance is born out of faith.
I chose to repent and be baptized as a result of faith. I didn't choose to believe; that was birthed in me by the Spirit and the word.
Faith isn't dependent upon repentance. Repentance is born out of faith.
I chose to repent and be baptized as a result of faith. I didn't choose to believe; that was birthed in me by the Spirit and the word.
That's because you misrepresent what I said. I didn't say God doesn't use people. I said He doesn't use people to draw an individual to Himself. He uses people to share the gospel. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation; not people.
And we don't produce fruit. It's called the fruit of the Spirit, not the fruit of the believer. We are branches. We merely bear fruit.
And we don't produce fruit. It's called the fruit of the Spirit, not the fruit of the believer. We are branches. We merely bear fruit.
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