Does the bible teach that Jesus is God?

[williamjordan]

For brevity sake, I'm not going to bother addressing the portions you've written concerning the Sabbath, or Easter for that matter simply because doing so would go outside the scope of the primary discussion.

But that being said, before I continue I would like to share with you a bit of my background. My family was not of the religious kind. In fact, my interest in the NT (which later resulted to my fathers interest in the NT) came abruptly in my life. I began studying the NT around the age of 20, and it wasn't until the age of 25 that I really started to favor the Trinitarian position. Prior, I was of the Unitarian (of the Modalistic kind)/Sabbatarian mindset. Over the span of 10 years no other topic has interested me more than that of Christology.

It is very apparent that you come from a Binitarian background. So I think it's critical that as this discussion ensues that others are able to recognize the differences between Binitarianism/Trinitarianism. Whether Jesus is divine or not is not the issue here. The heart of the issue is centered around the Holy Spirit. Unlike Trinitarians, Binitarians do not believe the Holy Spirit to be a person.

You seem to delve off into this "God family" language which some may find strange, because it's something they've never encountered. But as it relates to the topic, this is really only a side issue which stems from the teachings of H.W. Armstrong. The heart of the issue that I think needs to be focused upon has to do with the Holy Spirit. After we get that covered then we can talk more in-depth about this idea of a "God family."

 

[DiscipleDave]

I'm Trinitarian, I do not believe the Father, or Jesus are created/came into existence. What John says in v 1.3 is that Jesus is not apart of the created order. Jesus didn't come after the Father, nor did the Father created Him... He was already there with the Father prior to creation. I don't recall ever discussing with you anything about the Father. You need to reread everything I've written in response to you, because it seems like you didn't read a bit of it.

The mere fact that Jesus is the Son, and Jesus Himself says He has a Father, teaches that the Father created the Son. Jesus Himself testifies that His Father is greater than Himself, why is He Greater than Jesus Christ? Because the Father is the Father of Jesus Christ. The Father created Jesus Christ. Tell me, did your father create YOU? or did you create your Father? If then we are sons of our Father, and that is how it has always worked, why would the Son of God, say that He has a FATHER, why call Him FATHER, if He was not His FATHER?
i know the Truth, and have been taught this Truth by the Son of God. Jesus Christ has a Father in Heaven, who no man has ever seen at any time. We do see Jesus, the Son of the Father. But no man has ever seen the Father in Heaven, we only see the Son of that Father in Heaven. The Father sits on the center of the Throne of God, Jesus the Son sits on the right side of the Father who is in the center of the Throne, and the Holy Spirit is present on the left side of the Father which is in the center of the Throne. Those Three are ONE, and not only those three, but all those who will be Saints are ONE with them. The Father took of Himself, and formed and made His Son, which HE called His SON. That same Son that the Father born, we call Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ created all things that were made ie. The universe and every thing in it. The Son did not create the Father, if Jesus did create the Father, i assure you with no doubts whatsoever that Jesus would be greater than the Father. But Jesus Himself testifies and does not lie and teaches us that His Father in Heaven is greater than the Son of God.

^i^ Responding to Post # 156

 

[DiscipleDave]

The Bible says in Isaiah 42:8: “I am the LORD; that is my name my
glory I give to no other…”

We find God breaking that rule unless Jesus is the same one God. We read is 2 Peter 1:17 says: "For he (Jesus) received honor and glory from God the Father when these words from the Majestic Glory were spoken about him: “This is my Son, whom I love. I am pleased with him.”

We read in Exodus 20 :3-5 - You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not BOW down to them or worship them.

Again, God violates this one unless Jesus is the same one God! We in read Phi. 2: 9-10 says: At the name of Jesus every knee should BOW, in heaven, on earth, and under the earth. Jesus must be God!

Jesus is my God, this does not mean the Father does not exist in Heaven. me being a human man will only bow down to Jesus, the Son of the Father, because i, being a man, could not be in the presence of the Father. No man has seen the Father at any time, because no man could live in His presence, if they have ever committed sin. All humans will bow down and serve only one God and that is Jesus Christ, Because we can't possibly bow down and worship the Father, when we can't even be within a mile of Him, without dieing.

In Isaiah 42:8 Jesus was plainly talking to humans, and to humans He most certainly would not give His Glory to another. This has nothing to do with His Father that was in Heaven at the time He said that to humans.

in Exodus 20 :3-5 - You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not BOW down to them or worship them. This is also True, Jesus was telling Humans that they (HUMANS) were to only bow down to Him, the Lord, their ONLY God. This does not mean that the Lords Father was not in Heaven at that time. Jesus was telling humans that they were only to bow down and worship Him, The Lord thy God, which is Jesus Christ. Remember, no person ever knew about the existence of the Father until Jesus told us about Him. Even now we are not to bow down and worship the Father, we can't do that, because we are in our sinful flesh, but when we receive our Glorified Bodies, then and only then will we be able to see the Father with Jesus standing or sitting next to Him on the Throne. NO MAN (Human) has ever seen the Father, EVER, NEVER, Nor ever will. NO sinful flesh shall ever be in the presence of the Father, in the presence of Jesus the Son of that Father, sure. But NOT the Father.

in Phi. 2: 9-10 it says: At the name of Jesus every knee should BOW, in heaven, on earth, and under the earth. Jesus must be God!

Jesus is God, but He is NOT the Father that is in Heaven. Every knee in Heaven shall bow down to Jesus, but do not forget, the Father does not have any knees, God the Father is Spirit, He is not physical at all, and does not have any knees. Unlike Jesus and all the inhabitants of Heaven, they all have knees to bow to Jesus with. The Father does not bow to Jesus, He is His Father. does that which is Greater, bow down to that which is less great? Jesus testifies and is True, that His Father is Greater than He is, why? Because His Father in Heaven is indeed Greater than He is, Who is Jesus Christ's Father, the Father in Heaven is who.

Jesus is God, Jesus is NOT the Father.
Now here is where it is a little confusing for many. Jesus is my Everything. Jesus is Almighty Father to me, Jesus is my Mother, Jesus is my God, Jesus is my Sister, Jesus is my Brother, Jesus is my Master, Jesus is my Life. Jesus is Everything to me, BUT HE IS NOT THE FATHER IN HEAVEN.

^i^ Responding to Post # 163

 

[williamjordan]

The mere fact that Jesus is the Son, and Jesus Himself says He has a Father, teaches that the Father created the Son. Jesus Himself testifies that His Father is greater than Himself, why is He Greater than Jesus Christ? Because the Father is the Father of Jesus Christ. The Father created Jesus Christ. Tell me, did your father create YOU? or did you create your Father? If then we are sons of our Father, and that is how it has always worked, why would the Son of God, say that He has a FATHER, why call Him FATHER, if He was not His FATHER?
i know the Truth, and have been taught this Truth by the Son of God. Jesus Christ has a Father in Heaven, who no man has ever seen at any time. We do see Jesus, the Son of the Father. But no man has ever seen the Father in Heaven, we only see the Son of that Father in Heaven. The Father sits on the center of the Throne of God, Jesus the Son sits on the right side of the Father who is in the center of the Throne, and the Holy Spirit is present on the left side of the Father which is in the center of the Throne. Those Three are ONE, and not only those three, but all those who will be Saints are ONE with them. The Father took of Himself, and formed and made His Son, which HE called His SON. That same Son that the Father born, we call Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ created all things that were made ie. The universe and every thing in it. The Son did not create the Father, if Jesus did create the Father, i assure you with no doubts whatsoever that Jesus would be greater than the Father. But Jesus Himself testifies and does not lie and teaches us that His Father in Heaven is greater than the Son of God.

^i^ Responding to Post # 156

Again, I do not believe that the Father is created, yet you insist that I do. Nor do I believe that Jesus is the Father. If you think this is what I believe then you have imposed your own ideas into what I have written. The only way you could reach such conclusions is if you skipped over every other word in my post while reading it backwards... with one eye closed.

I concede the point that Jesus sits on the great white throne with God the Father, but there is no text in the NT which says that the Holy Spirit sits at the left hand of God the Father. You have imposed this onto the text.

John 1.3 makes it abundantly clear that Jesus is eternal. You didn't interact with what I had to say on the passage at all. Instead, you impose ideas into the Father/Son relation which I find unconvincing.

We can talk more at a later point, but for now it's time for bed.

By the way, are you LDS?

 

[84Niner]

There is no doubt whatsoever that the scriptures reveal to us that Jesus...is....God. Having that fact settled once and for all does not require that all questions relating to that one divine revelation will cease. There are many, and no doubt you will see many versions of commentary let loose in this forum. It is an ongoing debate that will probably never be over until His return.

Jesus, a man, yet also God, is nearly impossible to adequately dissect and explain in such a way as to leave one with the thought; "Oh okay, I get it now. Why didn't you just say that in the first place." There is no such answer. The Word being God and the Word becoming flesh in the person of Jesus, is the most profound and mysterious revelation in the NT. And just because we may not be able to fully grasp it (some will say they do), we can appreciate it and even experience it.

Biblical truths such as Jesus being God are no doubt the kind of truths that require spiritual discernment. Before one attempts to fully grasp and digest all the scriptures pointing us to say amen to the truth that Jesus is God, it would behoove them to first pray over and come to an understanding of verses such as John 4:24 "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truthfulness". Spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

That's why one intellectual person can study the word earnestly and come away with simply a lot of bible knowledge and have absolutely no revelation of salvation, to say nothing of the revelation that Jesus is God. Another person can come to the word with an open heart, read just a few passages and be convicted of the Holy Spirit and get saved, coming into a spiritual union with God. Thus, that one now has the spiritual faculty to receive the revelation that Jesus is God.

This principle applies throughout the bible.

 

[DiscipleDave]

DiscipleDave said:

The mere fact that Jesus is the Son, and Jesus Himself says He has a Father, teaches that the Father created the Son. Jesus Himself testifies that His Father is greater than Himself, why is He Greater than Jesus Christ? Because the Father is the Father of Jesus Christ. The Father created Jesus Christ. Tell me, did your father create YOU? or did you create your Father? If then we are sons of our Father, and that is how it has always worked, why would the Son of God, say that He has a FATHER, why call Him FATHER, if He was not His FATHER?
i know the Truth, and have been taught this Truth by the Son of God. Jesus Christ has a Father in Heaven, who no man has ever seen at any time. We do see Jesus, the Son of the Father. But no man has ever seen the Father in Heaven, we only see the Son of that Father in Heaven. The Father sits on the center of the Throne of God, Jesus the Son sits on the right side of the Father who is in the center of the Throne, and the Holy Spirit is present on the left side of the Father which is in the center of the Throne. Those Three are ONE, and not only those three, but all those who will be Saints are ONE with them. The Father took of Himself, and formed and made His Son, which HE called His SON. That same Son that the Father born, we call Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ created all things that were made ie. The universe and every thing in it. The Son did not create the Father, if Jesus did create the Father, i assure you with no doubts whatsoever that Jesus would be greater than the Father. But Jesus Himself testifies and does not lie and teaches us that His Father in Heaven is greater than the Son of God.

^i^ Responding to Post # 156

Again, I do not believe that the Father is created, yet you insist that I do. Nor do I believe that Jesus is the Father.

Where have i stated that you williamjordan believes this? You say that you do not believe Jesus was created, that is what i am responding to. If i have insisted that i believe you think the Father is created then please show where i have insisted that is what you believe. Friend you do misunderstand.

If you think this is what I believe then you have imposed your own ideas into what I have written.

Have you not imposed that i think that? when i have not thought that, or implied that?

The only way you could reach such conclusions is if you skipped over every other word in my post while reading it backwards... with one eye closed.

i have never reached such conclusions, you have reached such conclusions that i have done this. you are in error.

Please reread post 182. i am responding to what you clearly said:

i have reread post 182, now will you do likewise? Post 182 is response to what you said in post 156. You said

Jesus didn't come after the Father, nor did the Father created Him..

Everything i said in post 182, is in response to your above statement. That Jesus did not come after the Father, and you said that the Father did not create Jesus. Therefore to that statement i responded to you everything that i wrote in post 182.

i hope that helps you to understand better.

I concede the point that Jesus sits on the great white throne with God the Father, but there is no text in the NT which says that the Holy Spirit sits at the left hand of God the Father. You have imposed this onto the text.

Tell me something, if God tells me something, and i tell you what He has told me, is that then me imposing or merely relaying what God told me? Please don't give me credit for knowing who sits to the right of the Father, as if from my own thinking or from my own studies i have come up with this conclusion, as if from my own intelligence i have gained that knowledge. Let us give credit where credit is due for that knowledge and that is God.

John 1.3 makes it abundantly clear that Jesus is eternal. You didn't interact with what I had to say on the passage at all. Instead, you impose ideas into the Father/Son relation which I find unconvincing.

Sorry brother, it is not my place to convince you of the Truth, i never tried convincing you of anything. i am not called to convince anyone of the things God had told me, revealed to me, or otherwise. i am only called to tell people the Truth, what you do with it is on you. If you don't believe it, then don't believe it, i will not try to convince you one way or the other, that is not my calling. Now if you say something that is not True, such as your statement that the Father did not create Jesus, i am obligated to correct that false doctrine. That i have done. The Father did create Jesus Christ, who then created all things that were made. i am not going to try to convince of the Truth. You either believe it when you hear it or you don't.

We can talk more at a later point, but for now it's time for bed.

By the way, are you LDS?

Had to think for a moment what LDS stood for, That is Latter Days Saints i believe. No, i don't belong to any denomination. i believe the Truth, not interpretations of men. We Christians are instructed to have ONE mind to think the same things, we are so divided it is a pathetic site. there is only ONE Truth and that Truth is the Truth God gives not what men interpret to be the Truth.

^i^ Responding to Post #184

 

[valiant]

There is a distinction made between Jesus and God in the New Testament. No one can get around that. Certainly his ties to God are very close, closer than our ties to God. So it could be argued that he is fundamentally God. However, there will always be a difference. I believe he is something more, not in the sense of something greater but something not purely God. So he is called the Son of God. I think the closest he can become to being God is summed up in a popular phrase: Like father, like son.

So if He is of the same nature and being as the Father He is GOD

 

[valiant]

DiscipleDave said:



Where have i stated that you williamjordan believes this? You say that you do not believe Jesus was created, that is what i am responding to. If i have insisted that i believe you think the Father is created then please show where i have insisted that is what you believe. Friend you do misunderstand.



Have you not imposed that i think that? when i have not thought that, or implied that?



i have never reached such conclusions, you have reached such conclusions that i have done this. you are in error.



i have reread post 182, now will you do likewise? Post 182 is response to what you said in post 156. You said



Everything i said in post 182, is in response to your above statement. That Jesus did not come after the Father, and you said that the Father did not create Jesus. Therefore to that statement i responded to you everything that i wrote in post 182.

i hope that helps you to understand better.



Tell me something, if God tells me something, and i tell you what He has told me, is that then me imposing or merely relaying what God told me? Please don't give me credit for knowing who sits to the right of the Father, as if from my own thinking or from my own studies i have come up with this conclusion, as if from my own intelligence i have gained that knowledge. Let us give credit where credit is due for that knowledge and that is God.



Sorry brother, it is not my place to convince you of the Truth, i never tried convincing you of anything. i am not called to convince anyone of the things God had told me, revealed to me, or otherwise. i am only called to tell people the Truth, what you do with it is on you. If you don't believe it, then don't believe it, i will not try to convince you one way or the other, that is not my calling. Now if you say something that is not True, such as your statement that the Father did not create Jesus, i am obligated to correct that false doctrine. That i have done. The Father did create Jesus Christ, who then created all things that were made. i am not going to try to convince of the Truth. You either believe it when you hear it or you don't.



Had to think for a moment what LDS stood for, That is Latter Days Saints i believe. No, i don't belong to any denomination. i believe the Truth, not interpretations of men. We Christians are instructed to have ONE mind to think the same things, we are so divided it is a pathetic site. there is only ONE Truth and that Truth is the Truth God gives not what men interpret to be the Truth.

^i^ Responding to Post #184

Well you have clearly slipped up in your search for truth for there is no suggestion in Scripture that Jesus Christ is a created being. 'In the beginning that Word already existed --- and He was of the very nature of God' (John 1.1)

He is the image (full revealer) of the invisible God (Col 1.15) and the express image of His substance (Heb 1.2).

But of course if the god of this world has blinded your mind so that 'the light of the Good News of the glory of Christ Who is the image of God' fails to penetrate, we can do nothing to help you (2 Cor 4.4).

 

[DiscipleDave]

There is no doubt whatsoever that the scriptures reveal to us that Jesus...is....God. Having that fact settled once and for all does not require that all questions relating to that one divine revelation will cease. There are many, and no doubt you will see many versions of commentary let loose in this forum. It is an ongoing debate that will probably never be over until His return.

Jesus is God according to the Scriptures. The devil is also called a god in the Scriptures. Jesus Himself said "ye are Gods" If then we are children of God, what does that make us?

Jesus, a man, yet also God, is nearly impossible to adequately dissect and explain in such a way as to leave one with the thought; "Oh okay, I get it now. Why didn't you just say that in the first place." There is no such answer.

There is such an answer, it is called the Truth, the problem is, people reject the Truth, or do not want to believe the Truth, therefore won't accept it as Truth. The Truth is easy, believing it, is where people have trouble.

Jesus Christ existed before the Earth was ever created. Every single one of us, has an immortal spirit within us. Our Bodies without that spirit would cease to live. Our Flesh will never enter into Heaven, our flesh is flesh and will return back to dust. What is left, what remains? The Spirit. The spirit that is in you right now, will either go to Heaven for all eternity, or will forever be separated from Heaven. The Spirit that is within you, was not created at the time your mom and dad conceived you. it existed before the Earth was ever created. Please read The Meaning of Life for more information about that. The Spirit that was in the man called Jesus Christ was the same spirit that created all things that were made, the same entity that walked in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve, it is the same Spirit that all of the Old Testament refers to as the Lord thy God. That same Spirit entered into Jesus the man that was born via the woman called Mary. We are born flesh, and we have a Spirit in us. Jesus was born flesh, and that man had a Spirit also, and that Spirit was the Son of God, the only beloved of the Father in Heaven. He was in the man called Jesus Christ. When that man was crucified and buried and risen, that man that was risen was the Son of God that has always existed, He was in His Normal Body, the same body He was when He walked in the Garden of Eden. Simple Truth, believing it is the problem for this generation. It's not a mystery, if it is revealed to you.

The Word being God and the Word becoming flesh in the person of Jesus, is the most profound and mysterious revelation in the NT. And just because we may not be able to fully grasp it (some will say they do), we can appreciate it and even experience it.

Jesus Christ who created the Earth and the universe became a Spirit who entered into the man born of Mary, called Jesus Christ. Simple, no longer a mystery. We are human, and have a Spirit also. Why is it so difficult for this generation to believe that the MAN Jesus Christ had a Spirit as well? He did, and that Spirit was the same Spirit that created everything that was made, the Spirit was the beloved of the Father, that Spirit was the Son of God.

How can a Man be both man and God? i have just told you the Truth. The Man Jesus Christ had a Spirit inside of Him, that was the Son of God, the beloved of the Father in Heaven. He became flesh, by entering into the fetus in Mary. The Spirit that was in Jesus Christ was the Son of God, the same who was with God even before Angels were created, even before Heaven was created. Please read The Meaning of Life to get a better understanding of the Truth.

^i^ Responding to Post # 185

 

[secularhermit]

The bible teaches that God is not his creation. He is the creator, and we are the created. Big distinction. Big difference. Jesus was unique. He (being eternally God) took on a human body, entered into our dimensional reality, while simultaneously maintaining his divinity. He prayed to the Father, and performed the miracles he did in the power of the Holy Spirit. The trinity in action. But we are not God, neither are angels, demons, or any other of Gods creations. There is only one God.

It is easier to understand evolutionists...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YatS114FNg


Yes!

There is only one God.

 

[DiscipleDave]

The bible teaches that God is not his creation. He is the creator, and we are the created. Big distinction. Big difference. Jesus was unique. He (being eternally God) took on a human body, entered into our dimensional reality, while simultaneously maintaining his divinity. He prayed to the Father, and performed the miracles he did in the power of the Holy Spirit. The trinity in action. But we are not God, neither are angels, demons, or any other of Gods creations. There is only one God.

It is easier to understand evolutionists...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YatS114FNg


Yes!

There is only one God.

There is only ONE God that we can be Saved by, that is True, however there are many gods, as even Scriptures plainly teach.

2Co_4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Clearly there is more than only ONE God, if the Holy Scriptures plainly says there is.

Psa_82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Isa_41:23 Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.

Joh_10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Clearly there are more than one God. However we Christians are to believe in only ONE God, that is the God that consists of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, That ONE God. That does not mean there are not other gods. ye are gods.

^i^ Responding to Post # 190

 

[Jeff_56]

money is the god of most americans, and probably of most people in the world.

religion is the god of many here, and throughout the whole world too.

politics is a god for many, they have not rejected MOSES, but YAHWEH and YAHSHUA the MESSIAH.

sports is a god for many, they don't even realize the idolatry and wickednesses involved at all.

entertainment is a god for many, and has produced a lackadaisical attitude and very false view of life in multitudes.

telephones are a god for many, they can't go part of a day without them.

sex is a god for many, they excuse themselves because "it feels good" ...

and on and on and on it goes -- the world's biggest religions are false gods for billions of people -- muslim and rcc and buddhist and jws and freemasons and hairy krishnas and on and on and on the list goes....

--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[valiant]

The mere fact that Jesus is the Son, and Jesus Himself says He has a Father, teaches that the Father created the Son.

No, what it shows in fact is that the Son is of the same nature as the Father. 'In the beginning was the Word, and the words was face to face with God and the Word was of the nature of God.' (John 1.1). The Father is God and the Son is God.

Jesus Himself testifies that His Father is greater than Himself, why is He Greater than Jesus Christ? Because the Father is the Father of Jesus Christ.

Not at all. His father was greater than He while He was on earth. Being in form as God He had 'emptied Himself' and taken on Himself the form of a servant (Phil 2.5 ff). Thus He had optionally taken a lower place. But as the Son He was equal and of the same nature as the Father. Thus He would later be glorified with the glory which He had had with the Father before the world was (John 17.5). He would be restored to equal glory with the Father. As He had said in John 5.23, He was worthy of equal honour with the Father.

The Father created Jesus Christ.

You will not find any Scripture that says that.

Tell me, did your father create YOU? or did you create your Father?

Neither. God created me, my father only begat me, thus making me of the same nature as him. I am the equal of my father. Indeed in many ways I was superior to my father, as in some ways he was superior to me. But we are of equal standing and nature.

If then we are sons of our Father, and that is how it has always worked, why would the Son of God, say that He has a FATHER, why call Him FATHER, if He was not His FATHER?

Because Jesus never came into existence. He always WAS (John 1.1; 8.58; Col 22.15 ff). Father and son are earthly terms. They picture human relationships. On earth a son is born long after his father. The terms are applied to God to bring out certain truths, such as that the One Who came into the world as 'the Son' was of the same nature as 'the Father'. The terminology is for our benefit. It must not be applied too literally. There was never a time when the Son was born. He was 'eternally begotten'.

i know the Truth, and have been taught this Truth by the Son of God.

That's a change from those who say that it was by the Holy Spirit, implying that they are the recipients of truth in a special way. ALL true Christians are taught by the Son (Matt 11.25-27). All are taught by the Spirit. But because of what we are we only receive partial truth. We are incapable of comprehending the whole truth.

Jesus Christ has a Father in Heaven, who no man has ever seen at any time.

Except when the FATHER liked to reveal Himself in various forms, such as to Abraham in human form, Jacob in human form, Moses as His glory, Israel as burning fire, Moses as fire in a bush, and so on.

You may not have noticed but Jesus Christ is also in Heaven. He is on the Father's throne ('in the midst of the throne' - Rev 5.6; compare also Rev 3.21) although in His human Messiahship He sits at His right hand. Father and Son are united in glory..

We do see Jesus, the Son of the Father. But no man has ever seen the Father in Heaven, we only see the Son of that Father in Heaven.

I have already shown that the Father appeared to people as YHWH in the Old Testament in many forms. Few have SEEN the Son. The three apostles saw Him at the Transfiguration. But all others only saw Him in His human form as Jesus Christ.

The Father sits on the center of the Throne of God, Jesus the Son sits on the right side of the Father who is in the center of the Throne, and the Holy Spirit is present on the left side of the Father which is in the center of the Throne.

You have not a single shred of evidence that the Holy Spirit sits at the Father's left hand. That comes from your imagination for the convenience of your theories. As we saw in Rev 5.6 the Lamb is in the midst of the throne. It is only when He is revealed as the human Messiah that He is depicted at the right hand of the throne. So your whole thesis is incorrect.

Those Three are ONE,

Yes they are of one nature and one Being. They can never act alone. When the Father works, the Son works (John 5.17). When the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within us the Father and Son come to dwell within us (John 14.16, 18, 23). They are inseparable.

and not only those three, but all those who will be Saints are ONE with them.

But not in the same way in which they are One with each other. In Matthew Jesus always speaks of 'My Father' and 'your Father', NEVER of OUR Father (it is WE who pray our Father). Whilst we will be made one with the Father and Son it is never a unity of BEING as it is with the Father and the Son..

The Father took of Himself, and formed and made His Son, which HE called His SON.

That comes from your imagination not from Scripture. Jesus Christ always existed as 'the Son'. He was not 'formed' except as a servant. He always had the form of God.

That same Son that the Father born, we call Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ created all things that were made ie. The universe and every thing in it. The Son did not create the Father, if Jesus did create the Father, i assure you with no doubts whatsoever that Jesus would be greater than the Father.

Neither created the other. They are of one Being. But only those who have had it revealed to them by the Son will know it (Matt 11.5-27)

But Jesus Himself testifies and does not lie and teaches us that His Father in Heaven is greater than the Son of God.

No He tells us that He was 'greater' in status than the Son when the Son had taken the form of a servant and had been made man. But He was not greater than the Son when the Son had been restored to the glory of the Father. They were of equal honour (John 5.23)

 

[DiscipleDave]

DiscipleDave said

The mere fact that Jesus is the Son, and Jesus Himself says He has a Father, teaches that the Father created the Son.

No, what it shows in fact is that the Son is of the same nature as the Father. 'In the beginning was the Word, and the words was face to face with God and the Word was of the nature of God.' (John 1.1). The Father is God and the Son is God.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Here is what it means, NO interpretation needed.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word (Jesus) was with God (Father), and the Word (Jesus) was God. (Godhead, Son of the Father) Joh 1:2 The same (Jesus) was in the beginning with God (the Father).

It does NOT mean what people in this last days generation teaches. in the Beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with the Father, and Jesus was God (part of the Trinity) Jesus was in the beginning with the Father.

Joh 1:14 And the Word (Jesus) was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His (Jesus) glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, (That is in Heaven),) full of grace and truth. Scriptures plainly teach that Jesus was begotten of the Father, came out from the Father, was in the beginning with the Father. Jesus plainly teaches us that He has a Father in Heaven, that all that He taught came from His Father. Believe Scriptures not the interpretations of men which teach that Jesus is the Father.

Woe to this generation that does not believe the Word of God and what it plainly teaches. Jesus Himself told us about His Father in Heaven. Jesus revealed to us, that there was a Father in Heaven. Woe to those who teach things contrary to the Word of God. If what you believe contradicts even one verse in Scriptures, then what you believe is WRONG. Believe the Word of God, not the interpretations of corrupt men.

^i^

 

[p_rehbein]

Jesus taught us the He is God, does that count?

 

[DiscipleDave]

DiscipleDave said

Jesus Himself testifies that His Father is greater than Himself, why is He Greater than Jesus Christ? Because the Father is the Father of Jesus Christ.

Not at all. His father was greater than He while He was on earth. Being in form as God He had 'emptied Himself' and taken on Himself the form of a servant (Phil 2.5 ff). Thus He had optionally taken a lower place. But as the Son He was equal and of the same nature as the Father. Thus He would later be glorified with the glory which He had had with the Father before the world was (John 17.5). He would be restored to equal glory with the Father. As He had said in John 5.23, He was worthy of equal honour with the Father.

i totally agree with every thing you say above. Please reread what you have wrote above. Jesus is not the Father. Even your own statement above shows that Jesus and the Father are separate, NOT the same.

DiscipleDave said

The Father created Jesus Christ.

You will not find any Scripture that says that.

You will not find any Scriptures that mention abortion, millionaire, pizza, or watermelon, This does not mean it is not True.

DiscipleDave said

Tell me, did your father create YOU? or did you create your Father?

Neither. God created me, my father only begat me, thus making me of the same nature as him. I am the equal of my father. Indeed in many ways I was superior to my father, as in some ways he was superior to me. But we are of equal standing and nature.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Does this not teach that the Father begat Jesus? yes it does. You say your father begat you, therefore you are his son, The Father begat Jesus, therefore Jesus is His Son. Jesus is NOT the Father, Jesus is separate from the Father, True even as you have said that because you are the son of your father, that you are equal, this is True. Just as Jesus is God, because He is the Son of the Father, they too are equal. Just as we are equal with them. just as we are ONE with THEM (Plural)

DiscipleDave said

If then we are sons of our Father, and that is how it has always worked, why would the Son of God, say that He has a FATHER, why call Him FATHER, if He was not His FATHER?

Because Jesus never came into existence. He always WAS (John 1.1; 8.58; Col 22.15 ff). Father and son are earthly terms. They picture human relationships. On earth a son is born long after his father. The terms are applied to God to bring out certain truths, such as that the One Who came into the world as 'the Son' was of the same nature as 'the Father'. The terminology is for our benefit. It must not be applied too literally. There was never a time when the Son was born. He was 'eternally begotten'.

apparently you do not know what the word begotten means. If Scriptures plainly teach that Jesus was begotten of the Father, it would behoove you to know the meaning of the word, if you did, then you would not be confused as you are now. As for me, i will continue to believe the teachings of Jesus Christ who plainly taught that He had a FATHER, even calling Him as such, even praying to Him as such, and even His Disciples tell us that Jesus is in Heaven sitting to the right of His Father. Believe Scriptures not the interpretations of men.

DiscipleDave said

i know the Truth, and have been taught this Truth by the Son of God.

That's a change from those who say that it was by the Holy Spirit, implying that they are the recipients of truth in a special way. ALL true Christians are taught by the Son (Matt 11.25-27). All are taught by the Spirit. But because of what we are we only receive partial truth. We are incapable of comprehending the whole truth.

The Holy Ghost speaks to people vie a small voice, you know the voice that is in your head that tells you "YOu should not be doing that sinful thing" and the such, or an overwelming feeling that causes you to turn one way or do something, this too is the Holy Spirit. But an audible voice that startles you. For example one day driving home from work, i heard "David" and i jumped, looked in the back seat because i thought someone was there. Then i realized it was the Lord. He then told me audibly "To turn left at the next road" to make a long story short, i turned and 20 minutes later i saw a girl who was going to kill herself fixing to jump off a bridge. Her boyfriend and four of his friends Raped her. Anyways, Jesus told me to tell her to join the military. when i told her what He told me to tell her, she thought that was the dumbest thing she ever heard, and continued crying asking me to leave her alone. Anyways getting to the end of that long story, she jioined the military the very next day, fast forwarding two years, she found me after searching for over two years to thank me for her life, She is now married to a wanderful Christian man and is about to have their second child together. i told her she had wasted her time in thanking, but should thank God, and told her it was God who told me to tell her to join the military, not me. But she said she wanted to thank me anyways. my point is, i know to whom has been communicating with me my whole life, teaching me the Scriptures and opening them up to me, and that is Jesus. The Holy Spirit convicts me of sin. Jesus taught me many things, telling me that i must teach a generation that will refuse to hear what i teach them, i even asked Him, why teach them then, if you already know they will not listen to or believe me. He then told me, when they stand before me on Judgment Day, they will not be able to plead ignorance, for through you, they will hear the Truths that i tell you to teach them. And i am telling you the Truth now. Jesus Christ has a Father in Heaven, He is Spirit and not flesh, not physical at all, He sits in the center of the Throne of God, and Jesus sits to His right, and the Holy Spirit sits to His left. I know this is True, because God told me it is so. Jesus created all things physical, HE did NOT create His Father, His Father created Him, the Father begotten Jesus Christ, HIs ONLY begotten Son. No man has ever seen the Father at any time, but man has seen Jesus, and Jesus teaches us that He has a Father, Jesus teaches us that He is the SON of that very same Father, He is the only begotten of that Father. When Jesus was being baptised, that voice that came out of Heaven was the voice of the FATHER in Heaven, the Same Father that created Jesus Christ.

DiscipleDave said

Jesus Christ has a Father in Heaven, who no man has ever seen at any time.

Except when the FATHER liked to reveal Himself in various forms, such as to Abraham in human form, Jacob in human form, Moses as His glory, Israel as burning fire, Moses as fire in a bush, and so on.

You do error not understanding the Truth. NO MAN has seen the Father at any time, EVER. As Scriptures confirms. The Lord thy God of the old Testament, was all Jesus. The God of the Old Testament was Jesus Christ. God walking in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve was Jesus Christ. When God spoke to people in the Old Testament, it was Jesus Christ doing the speaking. It was Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost that created the entire planet Earth, NOT the Father. It was Jesus and the Holy Spirit that said "Let US make man in OUR image" NOT the Father, the Father has no image, He is Spirit. The Holy Spirit can take on images.

DiscipleDave said

We do see Jesus, the Son of the Father. But no man has ever seen the Father in Heaven, we only see the Son of that Father in Heaven.

I have already shown that the Father appeared to people as YHWH in the Old Testament in many forms. Few have SEEN the Son. The three apostles saw Him at the Transfiguration. But all others only saw Him in His human form as Jesus Christ.

You have not SHOWN that the Father appeared to people as YHWH in the Old Testament, this is only something that YOU believe is True, you have NOT shown that it is True. Jesus Christ no where in the Old Testament reveals to His creation that there is a Father. Jesus while on Earth in the flesh, revealed this knowledge to us. At the transfiguration, the three Apostle did not see the Father, they saw Jesus in His Glorified body, the same Glorified Body that He has always had prior to becoming a human being on the Earth. You believe it was the Father, NOT because that is what Scriptures teach, but because that is what you believe.

DiscipleDave said

The Father sits on the center of the Throne of God, Jesus the Son sits on the right side of the Father who is in the center of the Throne, and the Holy Spirit is present on the left side of the Father which is in the center of the Throne.

You have not a single shred of evidence that the Holy Spirit sits at the Father's left hand. That comes from your imagination for the convenience of your theories. As we saw in Rev 5.6 the Lamb is in the midst of the throne. It is only when He is revealed as the human Messiah that He is depicted at the right hand of the throne. So your whole thesis is incorrect.

Have i not plainly told you where this information comes from? If i told you again, would you believe it, or ignore it as you have done? It is NOT from my imagination, it is what God told me. The problem is you do not believe God speaks to people any more. It is not my thesis, it is the Truth.

God told me it is not my place to convince you of the Truth, i am only called to present it to you, what you do with it is up to you. If you don't believe what i have told you, then don't believe it. But i will leave you with this, You will not find one SCripture that contradicts anything that i have said, it only contradicts your belief of what you THINK the Truth is.

Now granted i teach things contrary to what you believe is True, but show me one (1) verse that teaches contrary to what i have told you. Do you know why you can't find even one verse? Because what i teach lines up with Scriptures perfectly.

God told me one day "If what you believe contradicts even one verse in Scriptures, then what you believe is wrong"
So then that applies to me and to you as well. i can show you many verses that contradict what you believe, Can you show me one verse that contradicts what i teach?

Want Scriptural proof that Jesus is not the Father, then read Is Jesus the Father which shows MANY Scriptures, Even the Apostles of Jesus Christ after they were filled with the Holy Ghost, taught the Father and Jesus were NOT the same.

Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

What a STRANGE thing to say. The Apostle Paul must have been ignorant to the Truth about Jesus being the Father. Or Does valiant think he has special knowledge that even the Apostle Paul did not have? Not only Paul teaches there is a FATHER AND Jesus, but other Apostles teach that same thing. So then should i believe valiant and think Jesus is the Father, or should i believe the Apostles who plainly teach that Jesus Christ has a Father. Jesus even instructed us how to pray, He instructs us to pray to His Father, NOT to Him, NOT to the Son, but to the Father, in His name. i have told you the Truth, discard it if you will, but i have not failed to reveal to you what He has told me. If then i merely repeat what He has told me, and you disagree, who are you disagreeing with, me or Him who told me these things?

^i^

 

[dcontroversal]

Jesus is my God, this does not mean the Father does not exist in Heaven. me being a human man will only bow down to Jesus, the Son of the Father, because i, being a man, could not be in the presence of the Father. No man has seen the Father at any time, because no man could live in His presence, if they have ever committed sin. All humans will bow down and serve only one God and that is Jesus Christ, Because we can't possibly bow down and worship the Father, when we can't even be within a mile of Him, without dieing.

In Isaiah 42:8 Jesus was plainly talking to humans, and to humans He most certainly would not give His Glory to another. This has nothing to do with His Father that was in Heaven at the time He said that to humans.

in Exodus 20 :3-5 - You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not BOW down to them or worship them. This is also True, Jesus was telling Humans that they (HUMANS) were to only bow down to Him, the Lord, their ONLY God. This does not mean that the Lords Father was not in Heaven at that time. Jesus was telling humans that they were only to bow down and worship Him, The Lord thy God, which is Jesus Christ. Remember, no person ever knew about the existence of the Father until Jesus told us about Him. Even now we are not to bow down and worship the Father, we can't do that, because we are in our sinful flesh, but when we receive our Glorified Bodies, then and only then will we be able to see the Father with Jesus standing or sitting next to Him on the Throne. NO MAN (Human) has ever seen the Father, EVER, NEVER, Nor ever will. NO sinful flesh shall ever be in the presence of the Father, in the presence of Jesus the Son of that Father, sure. But NOT the Father.

in Phi. 2: 9-10 it says: At the name of Jesus every knee should BOW, in heaven, on earth, and under the earth. Jesus must be God!

Jesus is God, but He is NOT the Father that is in Heaven. Every knee in Heaven shall bow down to Jesus, but do not forget, the Father does not have any knees, God the Father is Spirit, He is not physical at all, and does not have any knees. Unlike Jesus and all the inhabitants of Heaven, they all have knees to bow to Jesus with. The Father does not bow to Jesus, He is His Father. does that which is Greater, bow down to that which is less great? Jesus testifies and is True, that His Father is Greater than He is, why? Because His Father in Heaven is indeed Greater than He is, Who is Jesus Christ's Father, the Father in Heaven is who.

Jesus is God, Jesus is NOT the Father.
Now here is where it is a little confusing for many. Jesus is my Everything. Jesus is Almighty Father to me, Jesus is my Mother, Jesus is my God, Jesus is my Sister, Jesus is my Brother, Jesus is my Master, Jesus is my Life. Jesus is Everything to me, BUT HE IS NOT THE FATHER IN HEAVEN.

^i^ Responding to Post # 163

Jesus said, "If you have seen me, you have SEEN THE FATHER"

Hebrews states clearly that JESUS is the express ICON (IMAGE) of the invisible FATHER.....

 

[Bassey]

 

[fredjames]

The bible teaches that God is not his creation. He is the creator, and we are the created. Big distinction. Big difference. Jesus was unique. He (being eternally God) took on a human body, entered into our dimensional reality, while simultaneously maintaining his divinity. He prayed to the Father, and performed the miracles he did in the power of the Holy Spirit. The trinity in action. But we are not God, neither are angels, demons, or any other of Gods creations. There is only one God.

Therefore does the HOLY BIBLE teach JESUS is God?

When you say, 'we are not God', but JESUS said to the Jews who accused HIM of 'blasphemy' for claming Himself equal to GOD, that;

"Isn't it written in your Scripture that, you are gods."

As it is also written in the beginning;

"Lets create men and women in our image."

Also it is written;

"HE was in the fullness and likeness of GOD."

Therefore HIS church/Body of CHRIST, his own body still here on earth?

 

[Richie_2uk]

The bible teaches that God is not his creation. He is the creator, and we are the created. Big distinction. Big difference. Jesus was unique. He (being eternally God) took on a human body, entered into our dimensional reality, while simultaneously maintaining his divinity. He prayed to the Father, and performed the miracles he did in the power of the Holy Spirit. The trinity in action. But we are not God, neither are angels, demons, or any other of Gods creations. There is only one God.

John 10: 30. For I, and the father are one. "I" meaning Jesus. In the bible, Jesus is called many names, he is known as the word. So if you look back to the beginning of time. In John 1: 1. says In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So in the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God? So think about it, Jesus was there in the beginning of time of our creation. There are some scriptures to support that Jesus is God.

Many people think why can't we see God's face, well if you think about it, we did, when God sent his son to die on the cross for us. So therefore we saw God. If we believe that Jesus is God, then we have seen God.