For me, the easiest route for the stop sign, is when someone says that scripture does not say what it actually does say
Perhaps the ad hominem is you with regards to scripture. That ole ploy in the garden still works so easy
Doesn't Living Like the Devil After Being Saved Disprove Once Saved Always Saved?
- Thread starter Musicmaster
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For me, the easiest route for the stop sign, is when someone says that scripture does not say what it actually does say
Perhaps the ad hominem is you with regards to scripture. That ole ploy in the garden still works so easy
NO , IM NOT 100% SURE IF ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED - I KNOW NOONE CAN TAKE YOUR SALVATION BUT GOD GIVES US CHOICE SO IM ALSO NOT SURE WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU WALK AWAY FROM GOD BY CHOICE AND NOT RETURN - BE ON SAFE SIDE AND ASK GOD IN JESUS NAME TO FORGIVE YOUR SINS AND TRY WITH HIS HELP TO LIVE IN HIS WILL - (JOHN 3:16) FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON JESUS THAT WHO SOEVER BELIEVES ON HIM AND IS SAVED SHALL NOT PERISH IN HELL BUT SHALL HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE IN HEAVEN
@Musicmaster Said~~
Eternal security, then, for those who believe the gospel, is completely intact but with far too many confusing the continuance of sin affecting salvation versus reward in Heaven. To my students I argue that human pride and self-righteousness are the main obstacles to accepting grace. I routinely clarify common misunderstandings and demonic fabrications (such as equating grace with license to sin), and explain to them how joy and assurance are grounded in God’s promises rather than fluctuating emotions, with works of the flesh effecing rewards only.
Great post all the way around, but this is a KEY in the Christian way of life.
Eternal life is secured and assured at the moment of believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 16:31,John 3:16.
The issue of eternal life is settled and DONE. No longer are we to question our eternal life. Saved is saved.
And here we are debating loss/forfeit/walking away from eternal life........This is arguably the WORST position a Christian can live in. The losers will never advance in the TRUE Christian way of life, if they believe their eternal life is at stake.
We are not filled with Spirit and walking in the Spirit if we think our "seal" is at stake. It is a self-righteous lifestyle, not a Spirit led lifestyle.
You never heard that from me, but it's also true that I don't accept what others inject into the scriptures what they don't say, and claim rejection of that as allegedly rejecting scripture...THEIR made-up scripture.
It doesn't sound like you know what ad hominem really is.
MM
Well said, which is why the claim for the potential of salvational loss is still a works-based system of belief that its followers try to escape through rejecting initial salvation being by faith alone. When they try to couple that latter truth with the falsehood of salvational loss, that's where their case unravels without most of them even being aware of the dichotomy in their beliefs.
MM
And lordship salvation, "If, if and if then you were really never saved." All based on a subjective observation of a persons sin,works and lifestyle.
When the true tares take knowledge and truth to discern, they act as the light.......the subjective "sin meter" won't find them.
I read MacArthur's book on that way back when it first came out, not knowing much and not yet having formulated the proper pathway for proving all things, I didn't realize back then how works-based salvation oriented he really was in his theology. I realize he has many followers who don't like any measure of criticism of that man, but he was fallible, which is something he also understood.
MM
I've noticed that the argument against OSAS substantially amounts to an argument against OBAB == Once a Believer Always a Believer.
That's indeed what a couple in here have posited as their defense against someone who once claimed faith and then who walked away or slid downward or backward...however they may state the alleged phenomenon. Even children, when trained up in the gospel, he shall not depart from it:
Proverbs 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
There's effective and ineffective training up, which sets the stage for who will turn aside from it later and who will not. Proverbs in instructive, stating the result of the effect. That doesn't take away freedom to choose, but it does show to us that such a one who was under effective training up, he will never forget what he was taught, and THAT is the basis for his being without excuse whether he ever had faith or not. The one who had faith, his works will be burned and he be saved. The one did not have faith, he too will be held to account although in a different judgement.
However, those who go to the nonsensical extreme to claim that all who turn aside were therefore never men of faith, that's foolishness, otherwise who can be said to have ever built with hay, wood and stubble to be burned?
MM
Thank you for that clarification. I share with you the frustration of having so little time to proof read posts for correction later on.
Um, if I may, how did you draw that connection between the Judaizers who had gone out on their own to preach the Kingdom Gospel to the churches Paul had planted under the Gospel of Grace among the Gentiles, with the later writings of John to Israeli believers in the outlying provinces? If we look at what the contention was over in Acts 15 as Paul's charge against the message of the Judaizers, it had to do with circumcision and following the Law, which the twelve obviously still preached years after the Ascension, which the twelve also still preached as the Kingdom Gospel among believing Jews years after the fall of Israel. James made that abundantly clear in Acts 21:
Acts 21:20-22
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
Notice that James was speaking in positive tones, of praise, rather than criticism for the many thousands of Jews in Jerusalem who were still zealous of the Law and of circumcision requirements. I think we can both agree that would not have at all been the case had the twelve been opposed to following the Law AND the requirement for circumcision, which is precisely the charge Paul leveled against the Judaizers in Acts 15, with Peter saying that no such burdens should be placed upon the Gentiles, and James later speaking of only four moral items the Gentiles should observe.
I definitely agree with you here.
Yes indeed.
I've seen that debate many times, with neither side decisively winning the debate, so it's a moot point here.
Dave, if I were generalizing about you, I would not have asked questions about your position. When I speak expansively and generally, I'm not addressing you personally. I may not specifically state that I'm speaking generally, but I thought it would be clear where I was speaking generally across a broader audience on some things, but perhaps I wasn't as clear as I should be. Maybe I should enlist AI to proof read my posts for those kinds of weaknesses since my typing time is quite limited.
Thanks for the exchange.
MM
Can ya just answer no? Does not disprove osas nor you can lose your salvation. If its by works your saved.. maybe.. or you have no control over the fact God is faithful to what Christ did not what you do. There is much more to this but.. He died already for the sin of the world. How were the Corth.. any different? No telling them "your gonna go to hell if you don't..." kinda talk like "some" do today talk.
Yeah, the key point is that everyone is a sinner, before being born again and after. Therefore a Christian who is wayward after salvation isn't something to be surprised by.
God will discipline them, rebuke their ways. So they wouldn't usually stay in those ways, but that's not a guarantee.
Comes down to what Jesus forgives a person at salvation. He says its all sufficient.
Salvation by Grace Alone through Faith Alone (Not by Works)
Let's look more closely at what that means.
- Definition and Basis of Grace and Faith
- Salvation is by grace through faith, not of ourselves; it is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8–9). Faith is a choice—an act of the will of the inner person; it’s not a strenuous, herculean effort. One decides what to believe and chooses to have faith, thereby accessing grace.
- “Not of works, lest any man should boast” confronts human self-righteousness. People commonly cite works—baptism, church membership, moral behavior, or good deeds outweighing bad—as reasons to enter heaven. Scripture rejects these as insufficient because salvation is a gift, earned by nothing. Therefore, how many people are actually unsaved because of them believing in works...?
- Universality of Need and Scope of Christ’s Atonement
- All have sinned and fall short of God’s glory; His standard is perfection, not “better than average.” Christ died for all, shedding His blood for all, and God is willing to save all. The only requirement is faith in Paul's gospel. Faith entails rejecting self-righteousness, which is why many resist it.
- Romans 3:24—Justification Freely
- “Being justified freely” signifies no human contribution to justification. The term “freely” underscores that justification is completely without cost or merit on our part.
- Romans 11:6—Grace and Works Are Mutually Exclusive
- Justification must be either by grace alone or by works alone. Adding even “one drop” of works to grace nullifies grace, and vice versa. World religions offer various “flavors” of works-based salvation (“Baskin Robbins of works”), allowing people to feel self-justified—but such systems are empty and vain (both proud and empty), and those immersed in those cannot be saved by or through them.
- Common Objection Refuted (“Say a prayer, then rob a bank?”)
- The objection that grace permits lawlessness mistakes the breadth of sin. All unrighteousness is sin, not merely a few notorious crimes. Grace does not endorse sin; rather, it saves apart from works and later instructs believers to deny ungodliness. The notion that some minimal work (e.g., a $1 donation) could save everyone reveals human pride seeking to “earn” salvation.
MM
Eternal Security and Assurance
- Romans 5:1—Justified and at Peace Now
- “Being justified by faith, we have peace with God” indicates a present, completed status: believers are already declared righteous and have peace with God. Assurance should be grounded in objective truth, not fluctuating emotions or modern emotionalism. Happiness depends on happenstance; Scripture instead commands “Rejoice evermore” (1 Thessalonians 5:16), tying joy to the expectation of eternal good.
- Even amidst life’s worst events (bankruptcy, divorce, death, imprisonment, torture), the everlasting outcome renders present troubles insignificant after “the first ten seconds of eternity.” Joy is non-forfeitable due to the secure, eternal relationship with God established by justification.
- Ephesians 1:13–14—Sealed by the Holy Spirit as Earnest
- Upon believing the gospel, believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is the earnest (down payment) of the inheritance. If God failed to fulfill His promises, He would forfeit the earnest—His own Spirit—an impossibility—thus the seal guarantees the completion of God’s promise and provides assurance.
- 2 Timothy 2:19—Contents of the Seal
- The divine seal states: “The Lord knoweth them that are his” and “Let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” God’s knowing is definitive and unfailing; once a person believes, they are transferred from “in Adam” to “in Christ,” and God will not forget or lose them. The seal also exhorts godly living.
- Romans 8:35–37—Inseparability from Christ’s Love
- Nothing—tribulation, distress, persecution, famine, nakedness, peril, sword—can separate believers from Christ’s love. Historically, the body of Christ has suffered (martyrdom, state persecution). Even so, believers are “more than conquerors” through Christ. Martyrdom cannot touch salvation or take away spiritual blessings; faithful unto death yields the “crown of life” (concept referenced as found in James).
- 2 Timothy 2:11–13—Denying, Reigning, and Belief
- If believers suffer, they will reign with Christ. “If we deny him, he also will deny us” refers to denial of the right to reign, not loss of salvation. Even if a believer were to “believe not,” God remains faithful and “cannot deny himself.” Salvation loss would require God to deny Himself—impossible. Hypothetical scenarios of apostasy are strongly discouraged, but they do not overturn the theological point of God’s faithfulness.
MM
Works, Rewards, and the Judgment Seat of Christ
- 1 Corinthians 3:10–15—Foundation and Building Materials
- Paul, as a wise master builder, laid the only valid foundation: Jesus Christ. The twelve built upon the foundation of Christ and the Law, which is also what Jesus laid down for Israel. Building upon the foundation of Christ alone, with our being dead to the Law, this foundation is the only meaningful grounding upon which we build with gold, silver, precious stones (enduring under fire) not wood, hay, stubble (consumed by fire). The “fire” tests the sort of each work, likely by comparison to God’s Word (Jeremiah 23 likens God’s word to fire).
- If one’s work abides, they receive reward. If all work burns (because it was wood, hay, stubble), the believer “shall suffer loss” of reward, yet “he himself shall be saved.” Salvation is secure even when works fail, yet the passage underscores taking the Christian life seriously, studying as a “workman” (2 Timothy 2:15), and building in conformity to Scripture for eternal rewards.
MM
Distinguishing Saved and Lost on the Basis of Ethical/Moral Lists
- Ephesians 5:3–5; Colossians 3:5–6; 1 Corinthians 6:9–11
- Ethical/Moral lists (fornication, uncleanness, covetousness, idolatry, etc.) warn that those identified by such unrighteousness “shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” These refer to the lost (“children of disobedience”) under wrath.
- “And such were some of you; but ye are washed, sanctified, justified” (1 Corinthians 6:11) clarifies that believers, though formerly characterized by such sins, are no longer what they were. Human society may forever label someone by past crimes (e.g., murder), but spiritually, believers are cleansed by Christ’s blood and made complete in Him (Colossians 2).
- Therefore, the inheritance warnings target unbelievers; assurance passages apply to the saved. Believers are exhorted to holy living, but their salvation status rests on grace through faith.
MM
Didn't mean to load up this thread with what some may consider excessively boring posts, but these points are good armament for going into scripture and verifying for yourself what scripture says rather than to follow blindly what some assumed spiritual leader claimed that is contrary to scripture.
Those who lapse into version wars, there's no remedy other than to go to the manuscripts from which the KJV and some others were translated and seek it out yourself.
If one chooses to stick to the more modern versions, known to be grounded in the five most corrupt, altered and untrustworthy manuscripts stacked up against more then 6000 other texts, only because of an appeal to antiquity, that's cause for concern, but each one of us will give account for where he placed his trust...either in liberal translations or in the preserved translations that point to God's trustworthiness for having preserved His word to us all these centuries, allegedly only to reveal His truth in these latter days with all others deceived... That's such a sludge pit of nonsense hoisted up the flag poles of fleshly pride in modern scholarship gone awry.
MM
Those who lapse into version wars, there's no remedy other than to go to the manuscripts from which the KJV and some others were translated and seek it out yourself.
If one chooses to stick to the more modern versions, known to be grounded in the five most corrupt, altered and untrustworthy manuscripts stacked up against more then 6000 other texts, only because of an appeal to antiquity, that's cause for concern, but each one of us will give account for where he placed his trust...either in liberal translations or in the preserved translations that point to God's trustworthiness for having preserved His word to us all these centuries, allegedly only to reveal His truth in these latter days with all others deceived... That's such a sludge pit of nonsense hoisted up the flag poles of fleshly pride in modern scholarship gone awry.
MM
Some have claimed a lack of adherence to scripture for this topic they tend to label as OSAS. For the sake of productive discussion, I'd very much like to hear what it is that those individuals think is the grounding for such a claim; with quotes from whatever version(s) they're utilizing along with the dictionary definition their version claims to be relevant to the manuscripts.
That's not to say that everyone will depart on the same page as all others, but at least we can get it out in the open for all to see and consider for themselves; those who only read without engagement. Were all on the same playing field here, with none above any other.
I'm calling out on this because there are slavation loss people who still hold to their beliefs about that, which has a high degree of risk involved if it's found to be false in relation to scripture because of it potentially being a non-operative gospel for our time given that there is only one Gospel that can save in this day and age within which we find ourselves. The danger in following any other is indeed a problem given that the preachers of such to us today are to be accursed.
MM
That's not to say that everyone will depart on the same page as all others, but at least we can get it out in the open for all to see and consider for themselves; those who only read without engagement. Were all on the same playing field here, with none above any other.
I'm calling out on this because there are slavation loss people who still hold to their beliefs about that, which has a high degree of risk involved if it's found to be false in relation to scripture because of it potentially being a non-operative gospel for our time given that there is only one Gospel that can save in this day and age within which we find ourselves. The danger in following any other is indeed a problem given that the preachers of such to us today are to be accursed.
MM
I always return to the parable of the soils. In Jesus’ parable of the soils, the varied grounds picture the varied responses of those who hear the word: some receive it with initial joy yet, like rocky or thorn‑choked soil, fall away when pressure, persecution, or competing desires expose the shallowness of their commitment. Only the cultivated soil—the heart God Himself has prepared—perseveres, bearing fruit with patience. The farmer is not a passive observer but the divine cultivator who breaks the ground, removes the stones, and clears the thorns so that His word can take root and endure. This is the distinguishing mark of true discipleship: not momentary belief, but Spirit‑enabled perseverance.