Dominionism and the NAR

eternally-gratefull · Jul 6, 2011

zone said:

hey sis, I am not saying this to be mean. I am saying this because this is what I think is happening.

You said you read everything carefully. Yet you still believe I believe in something I do not. I do not believe in a literal kingdom for the Jews. This just just not true. The kingdom is Gods. And the whole world will share in this kingdom. I have never stated this kingdom would be for the Jews.

What I think is happening is you have read people like scofield and others who believe in this doctrine you reject. So when you read what I write you look for key words or phrases and say "yep, he is one of them" It is what catholics, and as I am learning. Scott as an EO does.

Yes they were in unbelief. So what did God do? he did exactly what he promised he would do if they were disobedient to them. Just as I posted yesterday. But what about the part he said would happen if they repented and returned to him? Do we reject his? If they as a nation repents and Come to God is his covenant made with them now invalid? Why would it be invalid? You have not explained this to me yet.

1. I have never stated they would. This is what you think I believe? This is just another example of what I said. You are looking for key words and you believe I believe as all dispensationalists believe. Just like Catholics look for key words and think all protestants believe they way they are taught we do. This is just not so sis. I am suprised you can read what I post and believe I think this way

2. According to scripture. The ones who go to the kingdom are those who "endure to the end" and live through the great tribulation. This would be both jew and gentile. No one is going to be raised and given a second chance. There are no second chances on earth. or purgatory. This is a false teaching.

I never stated there was. And am saddened you think I have ever said or thought this. This may be taught by some who call themselves dispensationalist. But I do not believe it. And to be honest. have never even heard it taught. so i am not sure where you even get this thought. (Not saying it is not there, it would not surprise me with the many beliefs out there.

The temporal land, nation and city promises are still valid. God never said in any of his promises he would at any point of time consider these promises null and void and no longer honor them even if Israel repented. In order to say this you would have to totally reject the last part of Lev I posted. which stated point blank., If Israel, (even if dispersed all over the Earth) repents. God will again honor his covenant he made with them. Again, try reading what I wrote sis. I don't think you have .

Land covenants were not types. They have nothing to do, nor do they even typify our eternal life. Our life on earth, or our entrance into heaven.

Again, there are many aspects to mosaic law. Not all of them deal with Gods dealing with the sin of man and restoring us to him. I don't know how I can get you to see this.

Sorry. But you said davids wants and desires and what he prayed did not matter. You did not say why. So you did not answer these questions I asked. You might think you did. But you did not explain why context means nothing. and why we should disregard context. again. I have seen you discuss other things with people and demand context be taken into account (because it is a must0 so why do we disregard context here?

Yes he has, we agree. And if and when Israel repents. he will keep his promises to them again. To say he will not is to make him out to be a liar. I can see it no other way sis. if God does not keep his word. he is a liar.

I don't teach, nor do I believe in this doctrine. Israel had nothing to do with my salvation other than to give the seed from which God promised which lead to Christ. And this is not saying very much about them. because God did it. Not them.

Yes, And I said I can not agree. Daniel asked for something. He was making intercession for HIS PEOPLE. God sent gabriel to answer Daniels prayer. So to interpret what gabriel said, We must look at it from the context of what Daniel was praying for because it was Gods answer to Daniel's prayer. To remove this context from the interpretation is to take it out of context. Even you know this is wrong. At least I hope you do sis!!

How would you feel if God gave you a verbal answer to what you were praying for, and said this is what is going to happen to answer your prayer. Then you later found it his answer had nothing to do with your prayer. You would be a little ticked wouldn't ya? As well you should be, because God decieved you. and did not answer your prayer at all. He just said some words to shut you up.

Yet this is not what scripture says. Yes we can look at this further.

I never stated they were exempt from Wrath Zone. Where do you get this is what I believe? I don't understand!! Just because some people might believe this does not mean I do.

Paul stated that the gentiles would have a time. Then after their time is complete. Isreal will repent. Your timeline is backwards. Paul did not say, nore was he talking about who got an opportunity to get the gospel and when. He was talking about those who recieved it. He said Isreal would reject it and be blind. They were when paul wrote it. And have been ever sense. But Paul made it clear. They will at some point repent. This has not yet happened now has it??

See this is what I am talking about. does it matter that peter started the Church in Jerusalem with a few Jews? Was the nation of Israel receiving thiry Messiah, or had they rejected him?

When daniel was praying. He and many others followed God. Just like Peter and the few Jews who chose to accept Christ. yet the nation was under devine discipline at the time of Daniel because as a nation they rejected Gods commands. Just like when the jews started the church. the nation as a whole rejected their messiah. In doing such they broke their part of the ocvenant. And God did what he said he would do under his covenant with them. and scattered them over the earth and destroyed their city and sanctuary.

It is national, not induvidual. we can't look at Gods covenant with isreal and assume because a few people followed God he would not punish the nation. any more than we can think God would punish the nation when MOST people are following him, and a few have rejected him. These are national covenants, not induvidual.

Well evidently the type of dispensationalism you have studied (which I do not believe in as we just saw) is not the type I have placed my faith in (believe as true) I guess I will have to study what you think it is. But I already know from what we have discussed here I will not agree with it

Only studied scofield minimly (I use one of his bibles, but do not look at everything he says) And I Disagree with much he says. As for Darby. Never studied him. So am not even sure what he believes in. so I can not respond to what he believes in.

I asume you mean if it has NOT been fullfilled.

We are not in trouble. Because it does not even concern us. it was god's answer to Daniels prayer concerning his people. Why some want to take it out of context I do not know. Why some want to distort what he said (such as scofieled) I do not know. I can only try to learn what it is God has said. and try to find outr what it means. Which I have spent years doing.

will answer the rest later.

zone · Jul 6, 2011

ok EG.
take it easy brother

...we're just finding out what goes where, right?

i KNOW you don't really run all the way with dispensationalism, just trying to find out where it starts and stops.

.

just one question then, for now:

is there to be a future 1,000 kingdom on earth after the Second Advent, and if so, what is the purpose of it?

love ya
zone

eternally-gratefull · Jul 6, 2011

zone said:

Lets not go there right yet. Lets figure out what God promised to the nation of Israel in lev. and see how these promises have been kept. (even to the point of AD 70 as a result of their unbelief) And why we would think if Israel repented God would not reafirm his covenant with them. (Since this covenant was not a salvic covenant. but a national covenant). Just as he promised. For this is the starting point by which I base my belief in this subject.

zone · Jul 6, 2011

eternally-gratefull said:

ok.
i understand.
if we could just bring the PROMISES into focus, we'll be on our way.

i say let's start from here...after all, we have an Hebrew of Hebrews, of the Tribe of Benjamin telling us about the promises:

The Law and the Promise
15 Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.

21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Sons of God
26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

~

The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ

~

so, i guess i would need to keep this in mind always, as the Plan of Redemption is Christo-centric only.

love zone.
(it is possible, also, to keep Revelation 20 always in mind....the only place a "millennium" is mentioned...if the futurist/dispensationalist interpretation fails, we have another problem)

zone · Jul 6, 2011

and secondly, again, Paul is telling everybody something about the Covenants:

Galatians 4
Example of Hagar and Sarah
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23 But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written,

“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”

28 Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30 But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31 So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

eternally-gratefull · Jul 6, 2011

zone said:

This is fine. if we are talking about the "REDEMPTIVE aspect of Gods covenants. But we are NOT TALKING ABOUT REDEMPTION. We are talking about Gods covenant with the children of Isreal which has nothing to do with redemption. This aspect of the covenants did not promise or assure or even mention redemption. so it is not in context.

Lev 26 did not promise redemption to anyone, It was a promise that if you do this I will bless you (as a nation) if you do not I will curse you (as a nation) this is context I am using to base my belief. This is the starting point of what I believe. so we must look at this before we move on.

people were cursed eternally even though the nation was blessed. People were redeemed eternally even while the nation was being cursed because of this covenant. Eternal life and the salvation of any person or group is not in question here.

If we can't get past this point. you will never understand the way I believe and why.

Still love ya.

eternally-gratefull · Jul 6, 2011

zone said:

and secondly, again, Paul is telling everybody something about the Covenants:

Galatians 4
Example of Hagar and Sarah
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23 But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written,

“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”

28 Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30 But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31 So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

Again, This is redemptive. Talking about those enslaved to sin, And those who have been made alive in Christ. This is not what we are talking about here. Sorry sis.

zone · Jul 6, 2011

eternally-gratefull said:

yes i understand what you are saying, brother.

i want to see the details of the argument, i promise i am paying attention and am absolutely open and appreciative of your teaching EG. in all sincercity i respect you immensely, i think you know that, bud.

i'm actually learning more from you lately than you know

~

so, let's completely lay aside the redemptive promise (Christ) for now and deal strictly with the land promise(s).

i guess i do need to go back over JUST the land promises, but with precision (i.e: how can they be severed from the obedience to the first Covenant if anyone who denies the Son doesn't have the Father either

i guess this is where the Romans 11 blindness in part comes in - but this is tied to Christ, so not sure where it fits in the land promises)...can you lay it out again in condensed form EG (sorry..please one more time, just short - just the land).

love you, truly EG.
zone

(also, at some point i guess we need to address the physical reality that there is indeed an actual nation state called israel in the middle east today, and determine if this a (the) genuine fulfillment of a (the) land promise, and where it can be seen written as going down this way....but this can come later)

eternally-gratefull · Jul 6, 2011

zone said:

lol, It took me almost 20 years to figure this out the way I believe it today. I bought into some of the scofield and other theology which now I reject totally (i Assume it is scofield since you keep bringing him up). I will try to condense it in a way which might help you understand why I believe I do. I will need a little time and I think we should open another thread for this. Since this is not the topic of this thread.. Agree??

zone · Jul 6, 2011

eternally-gratefull said:

lol, It took me almost 20 years to figure this out the way I believe it today. I bought into some of the scofield and other theology which now I reject totally (i Assume it is scofield since you keep bringing him up). I will try to condense it in a way which might help you understand why I believe I do. I will need a little time and I think we should open another thread for this. Since this is not the topic of this thread.. Agree??

PERFECT.
thanks EG. i love you.

zone · Aug 12, 2011

Bickle and Engle are hard-core dominionists who believe they are ushering in a new Christian church which will take its rightful place of dominion over every aspect of government and society.

Seven Mountains

Set To Go VIRAL

"In the mid 90s the idea of societal transformation and social entrepreneurship began to emerge when Bob Buford, author of Halftime began to voice the need for social impact through one’s workplace call. Other groups like Pinnacle Forum, a ministry to key influencers and our own ministry, Marketplace Leaders and International Coalition of Workplace Ministries (ICWM) was birthed.

"As we entered the new millennium Christian leaders like Billy Graham, Ed Silvoso, Henry Blackaby, and Peter Wagner became powerful voices to validate God’s move in the workplace....

"Today, a new trend is emerging in the faith at work movement.... the idea that the culture is shaped by seven mind-molders, or mountains, in society. They include business, government, media, arts and entertainment, family, religion and education. If we, as workplace believers, can influence each of these areas for Christ, we will win the culture of our nation.

"Reclaiming the 7 Mountains of Culture," Os Hillman[1]

This blog has recently been the focus of controversy[2] for publishing a series of articles about a May Day event at the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, D.C. in which prayers invoking the Seven Mountains were recited.[3] Our articles expressed concern that this radical mandate for Dominionism, and the leaders of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) which birthed it, were becoming part of the political Right and evangelical mainstream.

We are now convinced that the 7 Mountains theme is about to go viral. The 7 mountains mandate is already becoming a unifying rally point among evangelicals from many diverse theological camps and from some very unexpected quarters. The May Day event served as a launching platform to give credibility to this agenda and to exalt key New Apostolic Reformation leaders promoting Dominionism. In the crisis to "restore America," Christian Right leaders have already shown that they aren't too finicky about theology, nor picky about their political bedfellows.

How far can this go? Is the 7 Mountains strategy about to become a political slogan for the Christian Right? The list of partners who have already aligned themselves with this agenda is far-reaching. Below is but a brief list, just barely scratching the surface, of who's who associated with the 7 mountains theology and its mandate to take dominion over the "spheres" ("mountains") of the culture, the country, and the world. Follow the footnotes to see the extensive lists of bedfellows

C. Peter Wagner, Let's Take Dominion Now!"[4]
Restore America Conference 2008[5]
Os Hillman, Reclaim 7 Mountains Conferences 2008 and 2009[6]
Dr. Bruce Cook: The Kingdom Keys[7]
Pinnacle Forum[8]
Lance Wallnau[9]

On June 16, 2010 Cindy Jacobs, head prophetess of the New Apostolic Reformation, issued a political statement, an "Urgent Call to Prayer Concerning California's Proposition 8 and Defense Of Marriage Act." Written on the letterhead of her "United States Reformation Prayer Network" it has all of the hallmarks of a political action alert. This is a major first for the woman who has been associated with all sorts of strange doctrines and wacky practices.[10] By taking a political position on these high-profile issues Jacobs is obviously attempting to enter the Christian Right mainstream as an ally. Just this week she and fellow "apostle" Chuck Pierce have actually spoken out about the Gulf Oil Spill.[11]

This is an increasingly common tactic of the NAR - taking a politically popular Christian Right position and then using it as a basis upon which to gain greater credibility and garner access to the evangelical mainstream. It also gives them a chance to broaden their base of operations, spreading the word about the 7 mountains of culture and the agenda to mold minds, shape institutions, and take over governments.

Latter Rain "Kansas City Prophet" Rick Joyner set up his Oak Initiative, which this Spring was issuing political alerts and taking actions on a prolife bill in the Georgia legislature. An April 20, 2010 alert from the Oak Initiative titled "IMPORTANT GEORGIA PRO-LIFE BILL STUCK IN COMMITTEE" began in classic alert fashion:

As members and friends of The Oak Initiative, we want to make you aware of an urgent call to action in the U.S. State of Georgia as well as interventional prayer for the Body of Christ world-wide. This standard could be raised in every state and country and have great impact on Roe-v-Wade.

Please read the following letter from Dean Nelson, Executive Director, Network of Politically Active Christians. We ask that you respond in any manner you are able - be it prayer, phone calls, and forwarding to your friends for the same.

Justice at the Gate, a lesser known group, opposes abortion and human trafficking - wonderful ideals. But it is also headed by Alice Patterson, an "apostle" listed under C. Peter Wagner's International Coalition of Apostles which supports the 7 mountain agenda. Just today this group issued an alert calling for its "praying friends" to support Texas Governor Perry's "Proclamation" for a "Day of Prayer" for the Gulf Coast oil spill. Note: Prayer is the foot in the door, a strategic maneuver to rally everyone around a cause (who can be against prayer?). This formula inevitably leads to indoctrination in the Seven Mountain mandate.

A book could be written about Lou Engle of TheCall, and his extensive outreach into the politics of the Christian Right. He is directly tied to the Mountain Mandate movement in many ways. We wrote of his disturbing "God's Dream" Nazarite-youth Washington Mall event in 2008:

God's Dream is the theme of an upcoming pseudo-patriotic event scheduled in Washington, D.C. on the Mall sponsored by TheCall, an organization linked to Mike Bickle, Lou Engle and many other New Apostolic Reformation leaders, including many of the old “Kansas City Prophets.” But this is no fringe operation. TheCall... is interconnected with many mainstream evangelical organizations, including Campus Crusade for Christ.[14]

Herescope: Seven Mountains

~

oh GOODY.
violent extremists posing as apostles and prophets.

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Dominionism and the NAR

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zone

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