DRINKING AND THE SCRIPTURES
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you don't say "how strange it is that you've saved the best for last"
when you start serving unfermented grape juice to people who have been drinking wine all day (if not for many days).
you say "how strange it is that you've saved the best for last"
when you bring out the best, highest proof wine to serve to people whose palates are already numbed by much drinking.
there is no need to go into lexicographical study here -- the Word gives enough information as it is in plain speech.
Jesus at Cana turned water into better wine than what had been served already at the wedding. "better wine" does not equate with "weaker." no person in their right mind would taste a bunch of merlots, sangrias and chardonnays, savor them, then have a glass of watered down grape kool-aid and say "my but you've saved the best for last"
they would say "this isn't wine at all."
another point to make is that some have mentioned that yeast is used a symbol of sin in the bible --
many wines are made without yeast. yeast is a fermenting agent, but grapes (and some other berries) will ferment on their own. compare the verse quoted several times in this thread from Isaiah - new wine found on the grape cluster. there is no yeast in the grape cluster, as it hangs on the vine, yes?
i don't know the specifics of how wine was normally made in Israel back then, so i may be just talking into the wind here, but it's entirely possible to have wine without using yeast at all.
many wines are made without yeast. yeast is a fermenting agent, but grapes (and some other berries) will ferment on their own. compare the verse quoted several times in this thread from Isaiah - new wine found on the grape cluster. there is no yeast in the grape cluster, as it hangs on the vine, yes?
i don't know the specifics of how wine was normally made in Israel back then, so i may be just talking into the wind here, but it's entirely possible to have wine without using yeast at all.
Not criticizing anyone...............BUT........are we not to strive to LIVE CHRIST LIKE?
Matthew 26:27) And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 .) For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
29 .) But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
30 .) And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
This pretty much says it all for me................
Matthew 26:27) And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 .) For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
29 .) But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
30 .) And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
This pretty much says it all for me................
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
People who think they did not drink alcoholic wine at communion, or even during supper. have not remembered a passage Paul wrote concerning this.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper, [SUP]21 [/SUP]for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. [SUP]22 [/SUP]What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you.
The lord supper was not a wafer and a small cup of wine, It was a huge meal and drinking wine. In this, Paul was chastening people who would come and eat and drink everything before the people who were poor even had a change to eat and drink.
Church has not only made a legalistic view of communion. But made a religion out of it, instead of what it actually was. A great meal, breaking bread, And they did it often. At their house church, and whenever they came together.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper, [SUP]21 [/SUP]for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. [SUP]22 [/SUP]What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you.
The lord supper was not a wafer and a small cup of wine, It was a huge meal and drinking wine. In this, Paul was chastening people who would come and eat and drink everything before the people who were poor even had a change to eat and drink.
Church has not only made a legalistic view of communion. But made a religion out of it, instead of what it actually was. A great meal, breaking bread, And they did it often. At their house church, and whenever they came together.
I guess my point is this: I would never, ever push anyone to have a drink. so why can't my brothers and sisters in Christ who chose to 100% abstain or have had problems in the past and now are free of addiction simply not let those of us who chose moderation have our freedom of choice and not try to make us out as sinners because we do not do this their way.
The problem is not whether one drinks or not, but do the two opposing forces respect each others beliefs and opinions. I'm not an alcoholic but I know people who can drink an ocean. I however, am not better because I do not drink, nor are they the wiser because they choose to.
All things are lawful unto us, though not expedient. I'm not a drinker. One cup and I'm at least buzzed, therefore it would be unwise for me to drink as much as the people I know who can handle it.
In other words, every man should know their limits and boundaries.
All things are lawful unto us, though not expedient. I'm not a drinker. One cup and I'm at least buzzed, therefore it would be unwise for me to drink as much as the people I know who can handle it.
In other words, every man should know their limits and boundaries.
P
phil112
Guest
Originally Posted by gb9
you have it right. but many people want to tell you what you limits and boundaries should be instead of that being between you and God.
Sometimes people say the most outrageous things. For instance: "women preaching is between you and God". Ludicrous. God has already made His decision about how it is to be. Why do you insist on telling God He got it wrong? How arrogant is that for you to present yourself as a higher authority than God?
There are some gray areas, the ones between you and God, but if God has a decision recorded in His word, it is no longer a gray area.
So God has no respect of persons...... EXCEPT when it comes to females? It is in contradiction and therefore it is not God who is at fault, but how we view it.
The whore in Revelation is an example of women who is NOT silent in the church. What that means is that again, our own individual wisdom with its limits and boundaries are being pushed onto another.
To God on a global and spiritual scale, all of mankind (males and females) are named ADAM. They collectively are the MALE child in the flesh.
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But this is recorded in God's Word...
1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
Nice reasoning, but I gotta go with scripture on this one.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
some people remove historical context out of hermeneutics.
they ignore the fact Paul mentioned women, and call them elders in other passages. and that women today teach and are used by God in massive ways.. If it was a sin for a woman to teach, God certainly would not use them!
K
Kerry
Guest
If I went to church with yall. Could I tell the difference of it was a bar? I meant some do have bars in the basement. Y'all should read Habakkuk. Then read where Paul say's that those that condone are worse than those that do? Understand the difference of the times.
The Kennedy's made their money off of prohibition. He knew that liquor was gonna be made legal and ships waiting of shore full off liquor and beer. They day it passed, he became extremely rich, but at what cost? Alcohol is a spirit and not a good one.
The Kennedy's made their money off of prohibition. He knew that liquor was gonna be made legal and ships waiting of shore full off liquor and beer. They day it passed, he became extremely rich, but at what cost? Alcohol is a spirit and not a good one.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Yeah ya could.
People do not drink at church. That is not what church is for.
but to condemn someone for having a drink when Jesus obviously did. Well thats just wrong. and not of God.
Revelation 17:1-4;18
17 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
This "woman" reigns over the kings of the earth. How should a "woman" act?
Proverbs 8:1-2;14-16
8 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
[SUP]2[/SUP]She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
[SUP]16[/SUP]By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
By this "woman", it is kings that rule as to the "woman" in Revelation that rules OVER kings. That "woman" is not silent. Now tying this in to the subject matter at hand;
Luke 7:33-35
[SUP]33[/SUP]For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
[SUP]35 [/SUP]But wisdom is justified of all her children.
In the case of John the Baptist and the Son of man, it is the "woman" in Revelation. She rules over a male and a female in intruding their limits and boundaries onto others. They obviously thought something was wrong with John for his preference of food because he didn't eat what they ate. Likewise with the Son of man who was called a drunk because He drank and they did not.
But Godly wisdom does not act like this. She remains silent in that she does not push her boundaries onto others. She lets the male have authority in the opinions, likes and beliefs of all her children.
K
Kerry
Guest
You can drive down the highway with your feet if you want to. But, that don't mean it's a good idea.