Ephesians 2 is not preaching faith alone.

[legion]

1 John 5:20 King James Version
20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

So eternal life is being in the Son, and we know we are in the Son if we keep his words (1 John 2:5), therefore someone must keep his words to have eternal life. According to John, just believing the gospel is not enough.

Jesus said, “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day” (John 6:40 NASB)

 

[mailmandan]

If you read Jesus' words carefully in Matthew 7 you will see he is telling people you must do the will of the Father to enter into the kingdom of heaven, and that he is correlating the will of the Father with his sayings.

Matthew 7:21-24 King James Version
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

The will of the Father is his will over how we live, as is evidenced by it being correlated to his sayings. It's not simply to "believe in Jesus" (like you said when you interjected John 6:40 here). John 6:40 is the Father's will, that those who believe on Jesus may have everlasting life - it's not his will for us.

When I say there are works that have to do with my faith this is what I'm taking about, living in a way that coincides with the will of the Father. As someone who believes in Jesus I recognize that the onus is on me to follow through on Jesus' words here.

You continue to confuse God's will for us in order to become saved (John 6:40) with God's will for us after we have been saved. Matthew 7:24 -Therefore, whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: - descriptive of believers (the righteous). Matthew 7:27 - But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. - descriptive of unbelievers (the unrighteous). Again, you need to read Matthew 7:24 in context, beginning in verse 15 where Jesus is addressing false prophets and goes on to contrast good trees (believers) that bear good fruit with bad trees (unbelievers) that bear bad fruit. (Matthew 7:17-20) In Matthew 7:22, we see that these many people were trusting in their works for salvation instead of Jesus Christ alone, which is not the will of the Father. Jesus never knew these many people which means they were never saved. (vs. 23)

I'm not saved by simply believing the gospel: if that were true I could do whatever I wanted after believing and still be saved.

So, you reject Romans 1:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. You seem to have more faith in your behavior to save you than you do in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Moral self-reformation is not a substitute for regeneration.

This isn't true though, the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God. It takes an effort on my part to live righteously, in line with what Jesus preaches. I can't just do whatever I want.

The unrighteous is descriptive of unbelievers who practice sin. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21) The righteous (children of God) are those who practice righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9-10) Lifestyle or bent of life.

Furthermore, I take believing in Jesus to mean believing in his teachings too. So yes, of course we are saved by believing in Jesus, but this can't be separated from following through on his teachings, because if we aren't following his teachings then what exactly are we believing about him? Believing the gospel and just having this huge blind-spot where his teachings are I believe will lead someone to damnation on the basis of Matthew 7:21-24 alone.

Are you believing in Jesus for salvation? (trusting in Him alone as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation) or are you believing in self (trusting in your best efforts to obey all of His teachings as the means of your salvation? The answer seems obvious.

So, from what I can surmise, salvation comes through belief in Jesus, which leads to obedience with regards to what he preached. This also includes belief in the gospel, through which we are justified. Both things have to be happening in unison or there is no salvation. God will not be mocked, whatever a man sows that he shall reap.

So, salvation by faith and works. This is what you believe whether you realize it or not. See Romans 4:5-6.

Hebrews 12:14-17 King James Version
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Are you implying that Hebrews 12:14 teaches that if we are not "holy enough" IN ADDITION to having placed our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Ephesians 2:8) then we will not see God? That would imply works righteousness. The NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. To be sanctified is to be "set apart, made holy." Without justification, there is no sanctification.

Those who are sanctified have been "set apart" or "made holy" in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. Those who are justified are also sanctified and will be glorified. (Romans 8:30)

In the very next verse (Hebrews 12:15) we read - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God. (NASB) The ESV reads - fails to obtain the grace of God. That puts things into perspective here.

CONTINUED..

 

[mailmandan]

I know you read these verses completely differently, because we went over them before, but it says to take heed lest any man fail of the grace of God. These are written after Hebrews 10:26-31 where we're warned that if any man sins willfully they will have no sacrifice for their sins. So from these verses it can be taken that how someone lives does indeed impact their salvation. We must follow Jesus' teachings.

Again, see to it that no one comes short of the grace of God. (NASB) The ESV reads - fails to obtain the grace of God. Not fails to maintain the grace of God. In Hebrews 10:26, to sin willfully carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows willful, habitual, continuous action. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God. (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9)

Now if the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation and became unsanctified, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14) So, in Hebrews 10:10, we clearly read ..WE have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. In Hebrews 10:14, we read - For by one offering He has perfected for all time THOSE who are sanctified. So, to go from sanctified back to un-sanctified would be in contradiction here.

*NOWHERE in the context does it specifically say the person who "trampled underfoot the Son of God and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant" was "saved" and/or "lost their salvation." The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't always necessarily refer to salvation.

Strong's Concordance
hagiazó: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Original Word: ἁγιάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hagiazó
Phonetic Spelling: (hag-ee-ad'-zo)
Definition: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Usage: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.

Strong's Greek: 37. ἁγιάζω (hagiazó) -- to make holy, consecrate, sanctify (biblehub.com)

In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses the term "sanctified" to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "set apart" by their believing spouse (and by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul explained. So, the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved in every case, then you would have to say that the seventh day was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), Moses saved the people after coming down off the mountain (Exodus 19:14), the priests and the Levites saved themselves (1 Chronicles 15:14), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36), the Son saved Himself (John 17:19) and many other things that do not line up with Scripture.

In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to "nominal" Christians (make believers) and not saved people: But WE are not OF THOSE who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

So, after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a professing believer in this Hebrew Christian community of believers, but later renounces his identification with these believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received and trampling underfoot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with these Hebrew Christians was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.

 

[LeeLoving]

Jesus said, “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day” (John 6:40 NASB)

What you can infer from John's writings in 1 John is that "believing in him" includes believing his words, which would necessitate following them.

Jesus wasn't contradicting himself when he said later on in John:

John 8:51 King James Version
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Now if the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation and became unsanctified, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14) So, in Hebrews 10:10, we clearly read ..WE have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. In Hebrews 10:14, we read - For by one offering He has perfected for all time THOSE who are sanctified. So, to go from sanctified back to un-sanctified would be in contradiction here.

Hebrews 10:14 is talking about the efficacy of Jesus' sacrifice (that he doesn't have to keep repeating it), it's not saying someone is "saved" forever if they believe. It says by his one offering he has perfected for ever them that are sanctified, for ever in that he doesn't need to repeat it.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Consider all 5 verses together, especially with verses 11 and 12 in mind.

I don't fully understand the difference you make between prescriptive and descriptive. All of Jesus' words seem to be prescriptive, whether or not it describes someone who believes in him.

I just don't see how someone could be saved if they didn't follow Jesus' teachings. That's all. I made some points but you seem to have a response for every point and don't see the case I'm making. I'm kind of baffled how you don't see what is written in Hebrews 12:14-17. Whether or not it is pursue holiness or pursue the sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord, it is a warning. It doesn't hold that this sanctification is something that is just "applied" to us when we believe, it's something we have to pursue, or else why is there a warning here and why does the warning talk about Esau, who did not inherit the blessing? Hebrews is written to believers, so it doesn't make sense that it would be saying "pursue the sanctification that happens when you believe" here.

Yes I am saying you have to live in a certain way in order to be saved after you believe, that is what Hebrews 12:14 is saying.

 

[Wansvic]

Jesus said, “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day” (John 6:40 NASB)

Obedience is not optional.

"Though he (Jesus) were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" Heb. 5:8-9

 

[legion]

What you can infer from John's writings in 1 John is that "believing in him" includes believing his words, which would necessitate following them.

Jesus wasn't contradicting himself when he said later on in John:

John 8:51 King James Version
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.



Hebrews 10:14 is talking about the efficacy of Jesus' sacrifice (that he doesn't have to keep repeating it), it's not saying someone is "saved" forever if they believe. It says by his one offering he has perfected for ever them that are sanctified, for ever in that he doesn't need to repeat it.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Consider all 5 verses together, especially with verses 11 and 12 in mind.

I don't fully understand the difference you make between prescriptive and descriptive. All of Jesus' words seem to be prescriptive, whether or not it describes someone who believes in him.

I just don't see how someone could be saved if they didn't follow Jesus' teachings. That's all. I made some points but you seem to have a response for every point and don't see the case I'm making. I'm kind of baffled how you don't see what is written in Hebrews 12:14-17. Whether or not it is pursue holiness or pursue the sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord, it is a warning. It doesn't hold that this sanctification is something that is just "applied" to us when we believe, it's something we have to pursue, or else why is there a warning here and why does the warning talk about Esau, who did not inherit the blessing? Hebrews is written to believers, so it doesn't make sense that it would be saying "pursue the sanctification that happens when you believe" here.

Yes I am saying you have to live in a certain way in order to be saved after you believe, that is what Hebrews 12:14 is saying.

Anything beyond the verse I quoted is reading it into the text or you were technically saying the verse I quoted is invalid

 

[legion]

Obedience is not optional.

"Though he (Jesus) were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" Heb. 5:8-9

I obey him by loving God and loving my neighbor and I do the will of the father by believing in Jesus if you're adding anything else to it you're adding to the basic gospel message and promoting a heretical view

 

[legion]

Obedience is not optional.

"Though he (Jesus) were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" Heb. 5:8-9

Yeah obedience is optional we are not slaves and we are allowed to make bad decisions it's called freedom of choice

 

[legion]

I obey him by loving God and loving my neighbor and I do the will of the father by believing in Jesus if you're adding anything else to it you're adding to the basic gospel message and promoting a heretical view

Second is that the verse you quoted it says nothing about us being obedient

 

[Wansvic]

Yeah obedience is optional we are not slaves and we are allowed to make bad decisions it's called freedom of choice

You may want to read the scripture once more, obedience is not optional. It is those who obey Jesus that receive the eternal salvation He died to provide:

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY him;" Heb. 5:9

Another scripture that confirms obedience is essential:
"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32

 

[Wansvic]

I obey him by loving God and loving my neighbor and I do the will of the father by believing in Jesus if you're adding anything else to it you're adding to the basic gospel message and promoting a heretical view

Jesus gave the keys to the kingdom to Peter and told him to feed His sheep (2x) and feed his lambs as well. Peter presented the keys, that pertain to the foundation required of all. The Jews were given instructions first, afterward the Samaritans (half Jew-half Gentile) and lastly the Gentiles. Everyone throughout every generation is a descendant of one of these groups and as such what applied to them applies to all. Jesus said unless a man is reborn he cannot SEE the kingdom, and unless he is born of water and Spirit he cannot ENTER the kingdom. The initial conversion experiences recorded in the Word for each group include both water and Spirit:

Believers in Jesus asked Peter what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. Acts 2:36-42

Acts 8:12-17 (Samaritans-half Jewish-half Gentile)
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:43-48 (Gentiles)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

 

[Wansvic]

Anything beyond the verse I quoted is reading it into the text or you were technically saying the verse I quoted is invalid

Believing involves far more than just a mental acknowledgement. Scripture reveals this over and over.

Jesus said unless a person repents they will perish
Jesus said he who believes and is baptized shall be saved
Jesus said the Heavenly Father will be the Holy Ghost to those who ask

Jesus words parallel what Peter said was required of everyone in Acts 2:36-42.

 

[legion]

You may want to read the scripture once more, obedience is not optional. It is those who obey Jesus that receive the eternal salvation He died to provide:

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY him;" Heb. 5:9

To All Who Obey Him": This obedience refers to having faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior.

Another scripture that confirms obedience is essential:
"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32

This does not say anything about obedience. It simply states that those who are true disciples will continue in his word... and since the Gospels had not been written at this point we only have what he has verbally told us that has been recorded later in the gospels it is what he is often said love God and love your neighbor abstain from sin

In the New Testament, the "will of the Father" primarily entails believing in Jesus Christ for salvation and eternal life. Jesus defines this as the central "work" God desires—that people believe in the one He sent. It also involves obeying God’s commands, living in sanctification (avoiding sexual immorality

 

[legion]

You may want to read the scripture once more, obedience is not optional. It is those who obey Jesus that receive the eternal salvation He died to provide:

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY him;" Heb. 5:9

Another scripture that confirms obedience is essential:
"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32

There's one overriding factor that you seem to not really understand and that is if there is anything that we do that maintains our Salvation or gets us salvation it is no longer Grace by which we are saved it would be Grace plus Works which we know to be a heretical Doctrine and so far as Protestant Christianity is concerned

 

[legion]

You may want to read the scripture once more, obedience is not optional. It is those who obey Jesus that receive the eternal salvation He died to provide:

Blah blah blah.... here's is about 150 verses you can lookup yourself about salvation by faith alone through the grace of God.

Luke 7:48-50 | 8:12 | 18:42

John 1:7, 12 | 2:23 | 3:15, 16, 18, 36 | 4:39 | 4:41-42 | 5:24, 45-47 | 6:29, 35, 40, 47 | 7:38-39 | 8:24, 29-30 | 9:35-38 | 10:24-26 | 11:15, 25-26, 41-42 | 12:36, 46 | 13:19 | 17:20-21 | 19:35 | 20:29, 31

Acts 3:16 | 4:4, 32 | 8:12, 37 | 9:42 | 10:43, 45 | 11:17, 21 | 13:21, 39 | 14:1, 23, 27 | 15:7, 9 | 16:31 | 17:4-5, 11-12 | 18:8, 27 | 19:4 | 20:21 | 21:25 | 26:18

Romans 1:16-17 | 3:22, 25-28, 30 | 4:3, 5, 9, 11, 13, 16, 23, 24 | 5:1-2 | 9:30-33 | 10:4, 6, 9, 10 | 11:20, 30-32 | 15:1

1 Corinthians 1:21
2 Corinthians 4:4

Galatians 2:16, 20 | 3:2, 5-9, 11, 14, 22, 24, 26 | 5:5

Ephesians 1:13, 19 | 2:8 | 3:17
Philippians 1:29 | 3:9

1 Thessalonians 1:7 | 2:1 | 4:14
2 Thessalonians 1:10 | 2:12-13 | 3:2
1 Timothy 1:16 | 3:16 | 4:3, 10
2 Timothy 1:12 | 3:15
Hebrews 4:2-3 | 6:12 | 10:39 | 11:6-7, 31
James 2:23
1 Peter 1:21 | 2:6-7
1 John 5:1, 5, 10, 13
Jude 1:5

when you rationalize your way all of these verses two things will become apparent one you're wrong and two for you to be right you have to ignore over 150 verses in the Bible in the New Testament referring to salvation by faith alone which of course is denying the text of the Bible and ignoring 2,000 years of biblical knowledge research and tradition

 

[legion]

Believing involves far more than just a mental acknowledgement. Scripture reveals this over and over.

No it doesn't, your reading a presupposition into the text.

Jesus said unless a person repents they will perish.

Yes we must acknowledge we are sinners in need if a savior.. this isn't a work...

Jesus said he who believes and is baptized shall be saved
Jesus said the Heavenly Father will be the Holy Ghost to those who ask

Jesus words parallel what Peter said was required of everyone in Acts 2:36-42.

Quoting another author who answers this:

Someone asked if I could address the relationship between salvation and baptism in Scripture, because they have a friend who believes that you cannot be saved unless you are baptized. In this person’s view (and they are part of a denomination that believes this), the physical act of baptism washes you from your sin. They cite Acts 2:38: “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

For years I taught biblical interpretation at a Bible college. One of the things we discussed is that Scripture must always be compared with other Scripture. God doesn’t contradict Himself. The Bible is its own best interpreter. If a particular text, in this case Acts 2:38, seems to violate what many other texts teach, we need to question our interpretation of that text.

The many biblical texts insisting that we are not saved by works, but by faith, should lead us to seriously question an interpretation that says being baptized—or any other external act we can do—is part of what saves us. Our salvation is by God’s grace through faith alone (Romans 3:22-30; Romans 4:5; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; Philippians 3:9). Note that our faith is not a work, as some people wrongly state. A work is an external action, such as praying, giving, evangelizing, attending church, or getting baptized. Salvation should result in these works, but it never is caused by them.

Acts 10:44-48 is a key text because it’s so clear that these people were saved first, had already received the Holy Spirit, and only THEN were baptized. The order is critical. Please read that text to see what I mean.

First Corinthians 1:14-17 ends with “Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel...” This demonstrates that baptism is not necessary to salvation, because if it were, Paul would not separate it from the gospel message.

Acts 2:38 makes it clear that baptism is vitally important, and it certainly is. But other passages show repentance involves placing saving faith in Christ. The same Peter who spoke the words of Acts 2:38 also preached a gospel message in the temple (Acts 3:12-26). In these fifteen verses, Peter makes no reference to baptism but says this: “Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord” (Acts 3:19). What wipes out sin? Repentance, which in the larger context involves turning to Jesus as our Redeemer to save us from the condemnation of our sins.

If baptism is necessary for our sins to be forgiven, why didn’t Peter say so in Acts 3? Why didn’t Luke, who recorded these words, add that baptism is essential to being saved

 

[mailmandan]

Hebrews 10:14 is talking about the efficacy of Jesus' sacrifice (that he doesn't have to keep repeating it), it's not saying someone is "saved" forever if they believe. It says by his one offering he has perfected forever them that are sanctified, forever in that he doesn't need to repeat it.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Consider all 5 verses together, especially with verses 11 and 12 in mind.

Hebrews 10:10-14 is not only about Jesus' sacrifice that does not need repeating but also being sanctified, which is a continuous and permanent state. These passages of scripture emphasize that Jesus' single offering is sufficient for the sanctification of believers, marking a permanent state of being sanctified/set apart for God. This is once for all/perfected forever.

Romans 8:30...and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty.

1 Corinthians 6:11 - And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

I don't fully understand the difference you make between prescriptive and descriptive. All of Jesus' words seem to be prescriptive, whether or not it describes someone who believes in him.

Prescriptive is in order to obtain salvation. Descriptive is a description of those already saved.

I just don't see how someone could be saved if they didn't follow Jesus' teachings. That's all.

If someone doesn't follow Jesus' teachings, then they demonstrate they are not saved. How could someone be born of God, yet never follow the teachings of Jesus? That would be an oxymoron.

I made some points but you seem to have a response for every point and don't see the case I'm making.

I see the case you are making which culminates in salvation by works. Been there, done that back when I was still a Roman Catholic.

I'm kind of baffled how you don't see what is written in Hebrews 12:14-17. Whether or not it is pursue holiness or pursue the sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord, it is a warning.

I see what is written in Hebrews 12:14-17. Pursue holiness/sanctification does not mean pursue personal holiness based on works until you are finally "holy enough" in order to merit eternal life. It is a warning for those who fail to pursue and end up falling short/failing to obtain the grace of God. (Hebrews 12:15) Your interpretation of Hebrews 12:14 sounds similar to what I was taught while still attending the Roman Catholic church. The process of becoming holier and holier (holier than thou) through time until you are finally ready to meet the Lord at the end of our life based on finally being "holy enough."

It doesn't hold that this sanctification is something that is just "applied" to us when we believe, it's something we have to pursue, or else why is there a warning here and why does the warning talk about Esau, who did not inherit the blessing? Hebrews is written to believers, so it doesn't make sense that it would be saying "pursue the sanctification that happens when you believe" here.

In Hebrews 12:14, the NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. Those who have been justified by faith are also sanctified/set apart/made holy before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Yet we also have progressive or ongoing sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.

So, becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one-time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one-time event. The believer possesses a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, a remaining active pursuit in practical, progressive holiness, in regard to our ongoing sanctification.

*So, without justification, there is no sanctification. Our ongoing sanctification has no bearing on our justification. That is, even if we don't reach entire sanctification/sinless perfection in this lifetime (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ (Romans 5:1). Those who do not pursue sanctification is descriptive of those who fall short/fail to obtain the grace of God.

Yes I am saying you have to live in a certain way in order to be saved after you believe, that is what Hebrews 12:14 is saying.

Those who are saved will live in a certain way or else they end up demonstrating they are not children of God. (1 John 3:10) Now good luck with being "holy enough" to merit eternal life. God's standard is perfection and only Jesus Christ has met that standard (2 Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 14:15; 1 Peter 2:22) but none of us have. (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:10-12; 23; 1 John 1:8-10)

 

[mailmandan]

There's one overriding factor that you seem to not really understand and that is if there is anything that we do that maintains our Salvation or gets us salvation it is no longer Grace by which we are saved it would be Grace plus Works which we know to be a heretical Doctrine and so far as Protestant Christianity is concerned

In regard to Hebrews 5:9, I often hear works-salvationists cite this verse in an effort to try and support salvation by works/works righteousness. Now only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by practicing righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9,10) In either sense, only believers obey Him.

Unbelievers/make believers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith it's impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers/make believers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up from an unregenerate heart in a vain effort to receive salvation by works. (Matthew 7:22-23) In either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

In John 8:31, we read - If you continue in My word, then you are truly My disciples. (NASB 1995) Those who continue in His word demonstrate they truly are disciples of Jesus. Those who do not continue demonstrate otherwise.

 

[mailmandan]

There's one overriding factor that you seem to not really understand and that is if there is anything that we do that maintains our Salvation or gets us salvation it is no longer Grace by which we are saved it would be Grace plus Works which we know to be a heretical Doctrine and so far as Protestant Christianity is concerned

Amen! Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise, grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise, work is no longer work.

From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS.

 

[memberofthebride]

Obedience is not optional.

"Though he (Jesus) were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" Heb. 5:8-9

You are correct, those that obey Christ will be given the Gift of eternal life.

"Why call ME Lord Lord and do not the things I say?"

If a person "believes" Jesus, they will do all He tells them they must do.
Do folks "believe" their doctors -- do they do what their doctors tell them.

It appears to me the many over look most of the words from the mouth of Jesus found in the four Gospels.
Here is one where Christ teaches His disciples to obey the Law i.e. the Torah.

1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 ""All"" therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, ""observe and do"" but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

The scribes and the Pharisees ruled by the Torah, but as Christ said, they themselves did not obey the Torah.