I like how you understand everything your own way.
It's kind of nice, too bad it's not true.
Fran
Eternal Security You CANNOT lose your salvation! by David J. Stewart | January 2004
- Thread starter kevan1234
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
- Status
I like how you understand everything your own way.
It's kind of nice, too bad it's not true.
Fran
Jesus said that nobody can take you out of His hand. That includes yourselves. If you are the elect of God.
"Be sure to make your calling an election sure" Do not doubt. If any of you lacks faith, ask the father who will give liberally without guilt or any strings attached.
Faith is a free gift from God. When we are faithless, He remains faithfull.
Then build yourselves up in the faith! In Jesus name, Amen.
Hallelujah, Praise God, Thank you, Lord!
"Be sure to make your calling an election sure" Do not doubt. If any of you lacks faith, ask the father who will give liberally without guilt or any strings attached.
Faith is a free gift from God. When we are faithless, He remains faithfull.
Then build yourselves up in the faith! In Jesus name, Amen.
Hallelujah, Praise God, Thank you, Lord!
M
MattTooFor
Guest
OK so...you're agreeing with me that people can be mistaken about what they believe. OK then. So far, so good.
So, the people who stand before the Lord and say "Lord, Lord, in Your name we have done many miracles..." and Jesus says "depart from me"...they were mistaken about their belief in their own salvation. Like I said, people who mistakenly believe they are saved...are a dime a dozen.
Well...I would say you're having some interpretation problems I'm not going to just now sort out for you. Suffice it to say, if one portion of that passage says Jesus WILL deny us...and another portion says God will "remain faithful"...then the passage has canceled itself out...as far as your hopes of using it for proof that every single soul who ever said "Lord, Lord" is saved.
This makes no sense.
We are saved because of our faith and repentance before God.
The above concept suggests a dead relationship can be brought to life.
But let me suggest a conversation
"Hi Bill, this is Jesus" "B***** off"
The reality is people will come claiming a lot before Jesus and He will
reject them.
Grace,
How I hate going to the Greek. Do you think only people who know Greek can understand the New Testament?
Or do you think EVERYONE should be allowed to understand it and be saved?
If the translators, who are pretty smart, meant something other than DENY, wouldn't they have written what the MEANT?
So, in 2 Timothy 2:12 DENY means DENY.
For anybody interested, following is a Whole and complete explanation in Greek of 2 Timothy 2:12 and the word DENY.
BOTH Deny 533 and Deny 720.
THEY BOTH MEAN DENY. And even worse...
Fran
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
2 Timothy 2 Interlinear
12 1487 [e]
12 ei
12 εἰ
12 if
12 Conj
5278 [e]
hypomenomen
ὑπομένομεν ,
we endure
V-PIA-1P
2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
also
Conj
4821 [e]
symbasileusomen
συμβασιλεύσομεν* ;
we will reign together [with him]
V-FIA-1P
1487 [e]
ei
εἰ
if
Conj
720 [e]
arnēsometha
ἀρνησόμεθα ,
we will deny [him]
V-FIM-1P
2548 [e]
kakeinos
κἀκεῖνος
he also
DPro-NMS
720 [e]
arnēsetai
ἀρνήσεται
will deny
V-FIM-3S
1473 [e]
hēmas
ἡμᾶς ;
us
PPro-A1P
Strong's Concordance
aparneomai: to deny
Original Word: ἀπαρνέομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: aparneomai
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ar-neh'-om-ahee)
Short Definition: I deny, disown, disregard
Definition: I deny, disown, repudiate (either another person or myself), disregard.
HELPS Word-studies
533 aparnéomai (from 575 /apó, "from" which intensifies 720 /arnéomai, "deny") – properly, to deny, looking back to what was originally refused (rejected, forsaken). Note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó ("away from").
720 (arneomai) already means "deny," so 533 (aparnéomai) suggests "strongly reject" (especially the source). That is, utterly refusing to recognize the original source involved. Hence 533 (aparnéomai) can imply "ignore, disown, or repudiate" (Abbott-Smith, so also in Herodotus, Thucydides).
Strong's Concordance
arneomai: to deny, say no
Original Word: ἀρνέομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: arneomai
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-neh'-om-ahee)
Short Definition: I deny, repudiate
Definition: (a) I deny (a statement), (b) I repudiate (a person, or belief).
HELPS Word-studies
720 arnéomai – properly, deny (refuse); hence, contradict, refuse to affirm or to confess (identify with); disown (repudiate). See also 4716 /staurós ("cross").
Fran..I already addressed in a former post your quotes from guys like Irenaeus who said that they stop being sons of God. That is a bunch of complete foolishness. Can you stop yourself from being a child of your father?
They are not scripture. They are opinions and some of them are people "reading" into the things they have said and saying it means - they go to hell now. It's a bunch of religious garbage.
All your points have been addressed by many people. You are free to believe whatever you want but I do not for a minute believe that Jesus is a liar. He said that He would never leave us nor forsake us and that the Holy Spirit is with us forever. No one can pluck them out of My hand nor My Father's hand. Did Jesus all of a sudden become a used car dealer and do a "bait and switch" on us with some fine print?
To water down the gospel because some are afraid they might do whatever they want is actually nullifying the very grace that they need to live by faith in what our Lord has done for them.
Yes, there are many warnings in scripture about living from the flesh and from not growing in grace and faith in what Christ has done. If you read all those to mean that we go to hell because of it - it is a bunch of nonsense and anti-Christ in it's very nature.
The teaching of people losing salvation as in not being with the Lord is without a doubt the #1 worst destructive false doctrine that the devil has ever put into the mind of man to nullify the very love and grace of God from operating in our lives. It undermines the whole "why" of the gospel in the first place.
If you do not hold on to the faith that Christ has brought us peace - then you will not experience that peace in this life. You will not experience the kingdom of God in your life in that area while on this earth. It will bring destruction in your life. When you die - do you go to hell now because of it? of course not.
I have not found one scripture that says we go to hell after we become a believer in Christ - sealed with the Holy spirit. NOT ONE!
There is not one scripture that says once you are sealed with the Holy Spirit and joined as one spirit with the Lord - that He leaves you. The whole thought is so anti-the gospel and anti-Christ - I can't fathom people even considering it to be really frank.
People can believe whatever they want about this subject but I for one do not believe the Lord Jesus Christ is a liar. I'm a believer and so I will continue to preach and teach the grace and love of God. It's the goodness of God that brings us to repentance.
The gospel ( which ironically means "good news" ) is the power of God for salvation.
Last edited:
This is the entire post:
Originally Posted by PrynceNY View Post
Yea as Paul stated in 2 Timothy 4:7 - I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
eternally-gratefull replies:
Paul was not talking about how he saved himself. He was talking about how he let God sanctify him, And he congtinued to run the race.
Eternally-gratefull
What does I HAVE KEPT THE FAITH mean?
It's Paul's last words in 2 Timothy 4:7
§Fran
Aorist Tense.
Strong's.
It's too much and a lot of nonsense. That we should think we could come up with Greek meanings.
The New Testament is a Whole book. It's not a bunch of words put together.
I happen to have a friend who taught theology and knows 6 or 7 languages including Koinè Greek.
He thinks it's a lof of nothing when we discuss this stuff between ourselves.
The bible is for everyone, not just those who want to push around some words here and there.
Is anyone here a speaker of Koinè Greek? No. Then we shouldn't even bring it up.
It seems to me the bible is clear enough.
It's when we need it to mean what WE want to that the twisting of words begins.
Oh. And BTW. He believes one could lose their salvation, just like Jesus and the Writers taught.
Fran
There's a really big communication gap between us.
WHAT FEAR?
I don't know what you're speaking of up above.
I'd be happy to answer if I only knew about what...
Fran
Grandpa!
I taught the above. Including the Covenants.
PLEASE STUDY UP.
Then come back and we could talk.
Fran
M
MattTooFor
Guest
People who aren't saved, face God's fiery judgment. (??)There's a really big communication gap between us.
WHAT FEAR?
I don't know what you're speaking of up above.
I'd be happy to answer if I only knew about what...
Fran
I'm sorry Grandpa,
Maybe I'm tired and should quit.
There are three parts to the Law in the Old Testament.
THIS IS TRUE. Please find out for yourself.
Please find out WHICH of the LAWS Jesus abolished and which He kept.
The ceremonial laws were abolished, and the civil laws were abolished.
The Moral Law is not a dirty word and it was NOT abolished.
I think you're calling the moral law, the "spiritual law".
Please study this on your own and don't trust me. Be like the Bareans. Acts 17:11
Fran
Grandpa,
There's a difference between KNOWING something and BELIEVING in it.
There's another person on these forums that believes as you do.
I understand that it's not easy to leave God once you have tasted of His goodness,
But can we say it's impossible??
Hebrews 6:4-6
2 Peter 2:20-22
Fran
Eternally-grateful
You seem to enjoy arguing about confessing.
Have you ever read John 20:23
What does it mean?
Has the "modern God" changed His mind about this or anything else??
Fran
This statement-->wouldn't they have written what the MEANT? <---proves she has no clue concerning inspiration.........and rejects, denies inspiration and GOD leading them to pen the word....
Yes Grace, but it's like you don't get my point.
Look what you wrote up there:
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life
You must believe in the name of the Son so that you may have eternal life.
What if you STOP believing??
John 17:3
"AND THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE, THAT THEY MAY KNOW THEE, THE ONLY TRUE GOD AND JESUS CHRIST WHOM THOU HAS SENT."
NASB
You like Greek, in Greek, what does KNOW mean?
What if we don't KNOW Jesus anymore?
We get to have eternal life anyway?
I thought Jesus gave us eternal life?
Fran
There is moral laws that never pass away,which the two greatest commandments is love God,and love people,and is separate from the other laws.
Creation testifies that there is a higher power that created all things,and of His attributes,which one of them is love,for He provided food,and the means to make shelter and clothing,so the world is without excuse,which covers love God,and love people.
Jesus said a new commandment I give you,that you love one another as I have loved you,which it is a new commandment,for it was not possible to love people perfectly in the Old Testament without the Spirit.
Love works no ill towards their neighbor;therefore love is the fulfilling of the law,for a person can only love people perfect by the Spirit,and if led by the Spirit right with God.
The moral laws are spiritual,holy,just,and good,so they never pass away for they are spiritual.
Jesus took the physical ordinances of Israel out of the way,nailing them to His cross,for they were contrary to us,that they had no bearing on spiritual salvation.
Love is not selfish,not arrogant,and does not think an evil thought.
All who name the name of Christ has to depart from iniquity.
Jesus took away all the laws except the moral laws,love God,and love people,which the 10 commandments are laws of love,so they do not pass away,and since the moral laws are spiritual,and not physical,they always have to obeyed,and we have to abstain from sins of the flesh,like fornication,adultery,drunkeness,etc.
The Old Testament is a physical covenant,but the spiritual law was there also,but could not be established by people without the Spirit,so God had them do physical ordinances that they did have the power to do perfectly to keep them right with Him,until Jesus came and it became spiritual.
That is why the people that are left of the nations who went against Israel,the battle of Armageddon,which Jesus saved Israel,have to go up year after year to worship the LORD,and keep the Old Testament law,the feast of tabernacles,to be right with God for they took the mark of the beast,but God postponed their judgment until after the millennial reign of Christ.
In the New Testament we can establish the law,moral laws,by the Holy Spirit,for a Spirit led life will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh,and Paul said we do not void out the law through faith,but we establish the law,and the physical ordinances,and laws such as that,have no place in the New Testament.
Creation testifies that there is a higher power that created all things,and of His attributes,which one of them is love,for He provided food,and the means to make shelter and clothing,so the world is without excuse,which covers love God,and love people.
Jesus said a new commandment I give you,that you love one another as I have loved you,which it is a new commandment,for it was not possible to love people perfectly in the Old Testament without the Spirit.
Love works no ill towards their neighbor;therefore love is the fulfilling of the law,for a person can only love people perfect by the Spirit,and if led by the Spirit right with God.
The moral laws are spiritual,holy,just,and good,so they never pass away for they are spiritual.
Jesus took the physical ordinances of Israel out of the way,nailing them to His cross,for they were contrary to us,that they had no bearing on spiritual salvation.
Love is not selfish,not arrogant,and does not think an evil thought.
All who name the name of Christ has to depart from iniquity.
Jesus took away all the laws except the moral laws,love God,and love people,which the 10 commandments are laws of love,so they do not pass away,and since the moral laws are spiritual,and not physical,they always have to obeyed,and we have to abstain from sins of the flesh,like fornication,adultery,drunkeness,etc.
The Old Testament is a physical covenant,but the spiritual law was there also,but could not be established by people without the Spirit,so God had them do physical ordinances that they did have the power to do perfectly to keep them right with Him,until Jesus came and it became spiritual.
That is why the people that are left of the nations who went against Israel,the battle of Armageddon,which Jesus saved Israel,have to go up year after year to worship the LORD,and keep the Old Testament law,the feast of tabernacles,to be right with God for they took the mark of the beast,but God postponed their judgment until after the millennial reign of Christ.
In the New Testament we can establish the law,moral laws,by the Holy Spirit,for a Spirit led life will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh,and Paul said we do not void out the law through faith,but we establish the law,and the physical ordinances,and laws such as that,have no place in the New Testament.
A relationship with God is about love.
If you grow to hate God, there is not a way back.
This is about the heart condition and where you stand.
People all face choices between their priorities and some are deadly.
It is obvious God provides a way to life that some might try for the benefits,
but once they discover the cost, they bail out.
It is totally dishonest not to both recognise this in the church and recognise it
in scripture. You could argue people who start such a walk never truly were
"saved" but honestly do any of us know the road we start we can definately finish,
because at the start we have just the taste of what might be, and many who start
turn back.
The Lord knows who will make the walk, but all are freely called.
But what kind of soil is your heart, and how deep will you let His word make
inroads into you?
What if we don't know Him? What kind of a statement is that? It is with the heart that man believes - not in his mind where he can get messed up because of wrong thinking and false teachings.
Even Jesus Himself said this - ( of course He could be lying to us again.)
John 10:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Maybe the apostle John is lying to us too when he said this about the truth being in us forever. The Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of truth and Jesus is called the truth.
2 John 1:1-2 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.
Me. I choose to believe what Jesus and the apostles say about eternal life being in Christ are actually true and that they are not lying to us.
I also believe the warnings about following after the flesh in this life as well will bring destruction to us whether we have malice, cause strife and divisions, slander others in the body of Christ or live a homosexual lifestyle.
All of them will not allow us to participate in the quality of life that is ours by walking by the spirit while we are in these bodies.Humanistic thinking is always going to be against the reality of what Christ has done for us.
"As far as the heavens are above the earth - so are My ways says the Lord above your ways and My thoughts above your thoughts."
- Status