Faith without works issue .

[throughfaith]

15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18¶Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
What say you ?
Observation method.
Who ,what, when ,why , where ect
Let's discuss .

 

[Yahcubs777]

15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

It is written:

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[Live4Him]

You cited the example of Abram/Abraham, so I'll break that down a bit to hopefully show what this means:

James chapter 2

21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[22] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Here's where "Abraham (his name was still Abram at that time) believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness":

Genesis chapter 15

[1] After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
[2] And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
[3] And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
[4] And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
[5] And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
[6] And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

In context, Abram's/Abraham's "belief" or "faith" was directly tied to what the LORD told him in relation to his "heir" (vs. 4) or his "seed" (vs. 5).

Of course, we know from several other places in scripture that Abram's/Abraham's "seed", SINGULAR, is Jesus Christ.

For example, we read:

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." (Gal. 3:16)

Seeing how Christ truly is the singular "seed" of Abram/Abraham (if we truly belong to Christ, then we're accounted as being Abraham's seed too - Gal. 3:29), when God promised Abram that "he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir" (Gen. 15:4), he actually promised Abram/Abraham that Christ would come through his lineage or descendancy.

Later on, God was more specific in regard to the lineage of Abram's/Abraham's "seed", when he said:

"And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called. " (Gen. 21:12)

Here, God plainly told Abraham that "in Isaac shall thy seed be called", and, again, this refers specifically to "thy seed, which is Christ" (Gal. 3:16).

After telling Abraham that Christ would come through the lineage of Isaac, God tested Abraham's faith by telling him to sacrifice Isaac on the altar (Gen. 22:1-18), and Abraham would have done just that if an angel of the LORD hadn't stopped him (Gen. 22:11-12).

The writer of the epistle to the Hebrews explained the significance of this chain of events, when he wrote:

Hebrews chapter 11

[17] By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
[18] Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
[19] Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Abraham's faith or belief that his "seed, which is Christ" (Gal. 3:16) would come through the lineage of Isaac was so strong that he willingly went to sacrifice him, "accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure".

It was at this point in time that "the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness" (James 2:23) because it was at this point in time that his actions aligned with what he professed to believe in.

THIS is how Abraham's WORKS coupled together with his FAITH.

So should it be with us today.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

.
What say you ?
Observation method.
Who ,what, when ,why , where ect
Let's discuss .

1. Abraham was justified when he had faith in gen 15
2. Gif does not need to see works to prove our faith is real
3. The argument is not to those who have real faith the argument is against those who claim to have faith.
4. The argument is if YOU claim to have faith....ie. test your own faith
5 it is not we should look to people and fruit inspect to determine if they had real faith
6. True faith works. Abrahams faith was revealed to himself when he worked.

 

[crossnote]

The argument is not to those who have real faith the argument is against those who claim to have faith.

True faith works. Abrahams faith was revealed to himself when he worked.

Yea and Amen.

 

[Guojing]

15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18¶Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
What say you ?
Observation method.
Who ,what, when ,why , where ect
Let's discuss .

People usually like to have their cake and eat it, trying to make James agree with Paul, thru circular arguments.

It is faith without works that save, but if you claim to have faith but there are no works following, your faith is dead and could not save.

Its enough to make many heads spin

 

[throughfaith]

You cited the example of Abram/Abraham, so I'll break that down a bit to hopefully show what this means:

James chapter 2

21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[22] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Here's where "Abraham (his name was still Abram at that time) believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness":

Genesis chapter 15

[1] After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
[2] And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
[3] And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
[4] And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
[5] And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
[6] And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

In context, Abram's/Abraham's "belief" or "faith" was directly tied to what the LORD told him in relation to his "heir" (vs. 4) or his "seed" (vs. 5).

Of course, we know from several other places in scripture that Abram's/Abraham's "seed", SINGULAR, is Jesus Christ.

For example, we read:

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." (Gal. 3:16)

Seeing how Christ truly is the singular "seed" of Abram/Abraham (if we truly belong to Christ, then we're accounted as being Abraham's seed too - Gal. 3:29), when God promised Abram that "he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir" (Gen. 15:4), he actually promised Abram/Abraham that Christ would come through his lineage or descendancy.

Later on, God was more specific in regard to the lineage of Abram's/Abraham's "seed", when he said:

"And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called. " (Gen. 21:12)

Here, God plainly told Abraham that "in Isaac shall thy seed be called", and, again, this refers specifically to "thy seed, which is Christ" (Gal. 3:16).

After telling Abraham that Christ would come through the lineage of Isaac, God tested Abraham's faith by telling him to sacrifice Isaac on the altar (Gen. 22:1-18), and Abraham would have done just that if an angel of the LORD hadn't stopped him (Gen. 22:11-12).

The writer of the epistle to the Hebrews explained the significance of this chain of events, when he wrote:

Hebrews chapter 11

[17] By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
[18] Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
[19] Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Abraham's faith or belief that his "seed, which is Christ" (Gal. 3:16) would come through the lineage of Isaac was so strong that he willingly went to sacrifice him, "accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure".

It was at this point in time that "the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness" (James 2:23) because it was at this point in time that his actions aligned with what he professed to believe in.

THIS is how Abraham's WORKS coupled together with his FAITH.

So should it be with us today.

How long was it from Abraham being 'counted unto him for righteousness ' and being Justifed ?

 

[Live4Him]

How long was it from Abraham being 'counted unto him for righteousness ' and being Justifed ?

Being accounted as righteous and being justified are the same thing, so immediately.

 

[throughfaith]

Being accounted as righteous and being justified are the same thing, so immediately.

Could you show that with Abraham ?

 

[Live4Him]

Could you show that with Abraham ?

I already have, but it's worth repeating.

Again, IN CONTEXT, Abram's/Abraham's "belief" had to do with what God had told him in relation to his "heir" or "seed":

Genesis chapter 15

[1] After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
[2] And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
[3] And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
[4] And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
[5] And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
[6] And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

As I've previously pointed out, Abram's/Abraham's "seed" is Christ:

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. " (Gal. 3:16)

Seeing how Abram's/Abraham's promised "seed" truly is Christ, Abram/Abraham could immediately be accounted as righteous for his "belief" or faith in him (Jesus).

However, God also told Abram/Abraham that Christ would come through his descendancy, and then later clarified that even more, when he said:

"And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called. " (Gen. 21:12)

As I've previously stated, God then went on to test Abraham's faith by commanding him to sacrifice Isaac on the altar...his son through whom he had previously told him that his "seed" or Christ would come.

It wasn't until Abraham attempted to do so that THIS PART of his "belief" was proven, and THIS PART is what James says wasn't fulfilled up until this time.

In other words, there are two aspects to what we read in Genesis 15:1-6:

1. That Abram/Abraham was going to have a "seed, which is Christ".

Abram's/Abraham's "belief" or faith in this immediately was counted unto him for righteousness.

2. That Abram's/Abraham's "seed, which is Christ" was not only going to come through his descendancy, but specifically through the lineage of Isaac.

Again, God tested Abraham in THIS REGARD, and Abraham ultimately passed the test.

When he did, THIS PARTICULAR ASPECT of what we read in Genesis 15:1-6 was fulfilled, but, again, Abram/Abraham had already been accounted as righteous for his faith in his "seed, which is Christ".

Hopefully, that makes sense.

 

[crossnote]

How long was it from Abraham being 'counted unto him for righteousness ' and being Justifed ?

Could you show that with Abraham ?

Along with post#10, I would add this...

Romans 4:3 CSB
[3] For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.

 

[wattie]

There is also 'the faith' and saving faith.

The faith.. is following the Word of God through the New Testament system of faith

Saving faith is the initial salvation in Jesus saving someone and giving eternal life.

So when I see faith without works is dead.. I see the 'system of faith' rather than 'saving' faith being the topic.

 

[throughfaith]

Along with post#10, I would add this...

Romans 4:3 CSB
[3] For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.

In the old testament is there a gap from when Abraham is credited righteousness and when he is justified?

 

[throughfaith]

There is also 'the faith' and saving faith.

The faith.. is following the Word of God through the New Testament system of faith

Saving faith is the initial salvation in Jesus saving someone and giving eternal life.

So when I see faith without works is dead.. I see the 'system of faith' rather than 'saving' faith being the topic.

And these ?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Along with post#10, I would add this...

Romans 4:3 CSB
[3] For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.

I love it how people try to use an act Abraham did decades after God declaired him righteous as the means of his salvation.

I am suprised God had to wait so long before abraham offered his son to know if his faith was justified or not.

I guess thank God he did not die in between those times, he would have been lost forever,

 

[mailmandan]

I love it how people try to use an act Abraham did decades after God declaired him righteous as the means of his salvation.

I am suprised God had to wait so long before abraham offered his son to know if his faith was justified or not.

I guess thank God he did not die in between those times, he would have been lost forever,

In James 2:21, we notice that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen James is talking to them to test their own faith, OT us to be fruit inspectors to determine ones salvation

 

[Guojing]

In the old testament is there a gap from when Abraham is credited righteousness and when he is justified?

Very few are willing to read that passage from James 2 literally, and realized that James might be distinguishing between being righteous and being justified.

 

[JaumeJ]

It would seem when our Father deems any man righteous, this, in itself would be justification.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Very few are willing to read that passage from James 2 literally, and realized that James might be distinguishing between being righteous and being justified.

Actually he is trying to help those who claim to have faith look deep inside to help determine if their own faith is real. Chapter 1 and 2 is al about searching ourselves