False teaching by separating Scripture from Scripture

[dkontner]

I won't be able to summarise it adequately, so I apologize in advance. There's isn't enough space to write a detailed summary so this will just be skimming the surface.

I'll begin with my failure to understand Genesis 3 which speaks about Adam's fall, the introduction of sin into the world, and the consequential enslavement of humanity to sin. The "Fall of Man" and "Original Sin," where Adam, acting as the covenant representative (or federal head) of all humanity, disobeyed God, resulting in the corruption of human nature and the alienation of mankind from God.
I was of the view that our inherited corrupt human nature didn't prevent us from choosing to turn from our sin to repent, and place our trust in the Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of our sin to receive salvation.
I have since learned that, because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The natural man (unregenerated) is dead, blind and deaf to the things of God. He is not free to choose, because he is enslaved to his evil nature so he can't choose good over evil in the spiritual realm.
I used to believe that the bible doctrine of "election" was based on God looking into the future to see how we respond to His gospel call. Then He only chose those who He knew would of themselves freely believe by their own faith in the gospel. So I believed that election was determined by the faith that man already had by his will.

I obviously don't believe that anymore, now I believe salvation is all of the Lord, He is the Author and the Finisher of my salvation.
I don't believe man has a "free will", because every part of our constitution has been corrupted. Our soul, mind, heart, and body have all been corrupted. we don't have the means by which we can restore our being to a state of sinless righteous state. It's like saying a bad tree can produce good fruit, it just can't happen unless God intervenes.

I used to believe that God would save the whole world, as in John 3:16 "for God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son, so whosever believes on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life". But there were major red flags with that idea, namely all of those passages of scripture that declare that the majority are not going to be saved. So, God either contradicts Himself or my understanding of that doctrine was wrong.

I used to believe that man ultimately had the choice to either believe or reject, the gospel. I have since come to believe that God regenerates those he chose to save, and He changes their nature and gives them the gift of faith, so they will gladly believe.

I used to believe that a born again believer, can die spiritually again and lose their salvation. I have since come to believe that God keeps His people saved forever. If salvation was left in our hands, the Devil would snatch it from us at some point. That's why God has to hold us in His hand, so nothing can snatch us out of His hand.

I would have liked to list many verses of scripture to support these views but, I'll need to do that in a future post

God bless you brother

 

[rewriter]

We know the Roman Emperors didn't tolerate anyone who's loyalty was divided. The Jews and Christians, obviously placed God above the Emperors and that crime incurred the death penalty.

The other ethnic groups in the Roman Empire, such as the Greeks were all pagan. The Emperor had no problem with the pagan Greeks and their false gods, since false gods posed no threat. Everyone could see that the pagan Greek statues were dead and those who worshipped them were delusional.

It's no different today, Christians and Jews are the two most hated groups in the entire world, because we have always been seen as a threat to the rulers of the world.

The Devil is not challenging or threatening false teachers, in any way. Since they're doing His bidding for Him.

The RCC v Protestants, is a complexed subject. I'd rather not get too deep into it here and now. But I would like cover it one day.

That sounds all well and good, except that the Jews had special status under Roman rule. Following the 1st Jewish war that status was regained by the Jews, but not by the Christians even though they were viewed as a special group within the Jews. Persecutions in the 80's CE were directed at the Christians independently of the balance of the Jewish population even though they were officially Jews into the 90's CE.

So, what was the serious threat posed by the Jews and Christians that warranted such special attention? And when answering, remember that of all the temples that the Romans destroyed, on purpose or accidentally, only two were never at least partially restored, and both were Jewish. Bonus points if you can identify both destroyed Jewish temples that existed under Rome, and a hint, they were destroyed about 3 years apart.

 

[TruthDefender]

There's a Christian site that specifically invites unbelievers with accusations of Bible error.

Maybe for people who add/ take away/ insert their man-made traditions in verses.

Looks like we have one here. You're doing good to demand specifics. That's when you can show the Bible is unerring, by the Bible itself disproving any accused error.

So maybe you can translate this statement/ accusation of yours?

There's not an error. The Scripture simply says the hair of a woman is given her by God, as all the head covering she needs to please Him.

Probably a good majority of believers believe this, but I merely stated that this verse doesn’t fit, given what the other verses stated.
I believe I’m allowed to question this!?

And also, I was stating to the other person that there is NO contradictions in the bible other than, to me, this one verse that seems to stick out.

Do you wish to continue with your false accusation??

1 Cor 11 is moving women away from needing artificial head-coverings to honor God. Which coverings were never commanded by God, but only by men.

It's sufficient for a woman to honor God by the hair given her, and so don't get a man's haircut that doesn't cover the head.

“For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. Judge among yourselves. Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him?
But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her;
for her hair is given to her for a covering. But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God.”
‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭11‬:‭7‬, ‭10‬, ‭13‬-‭16‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Along with clothing, there is one outer physical trait of men and women, that God seeks to honor him: Long hair on a woman enough to cover the head, and short hair on men that doesn't cover the head.

Women with men's haircuts ought just shave it like the temple whores, and men with long hair like women belong with the beasts:

Both clothing and hair is a cultural thing.
Do you know what constitutes long and short? In every culture it’s different, I’m sure!

What about thinning hair, the hair is not so covered? Women who have cancer and other hormonal problems should probably cover. There are many people in this country suffering from a loss of hair, for whatever reasons. Don’t be so judgmental and adamant!!

Rev 9:7
And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.

What is your point here?

 

[rewriter]

Maybe for people who add/ take away/ insert their man-made traditions in verses.


So maybe you can translate this statement/ accusation of yours?


Probably a good majority of believers believe this, but I merely stated that this verse doesn’t fit, given what the other verses stated.
I believe I’m allowed to question this!?

And also, I was stating to the other person that there is NO contradictions in the bible other than, to me, this one verse that seems to stick out.

Do you wish to continue with your false accusation??


“For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. Judge among yourselves. Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him?
But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her;
for her hair is given to her for a covering. But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God.”
‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭11‬:‭7‬, ‭10‬, ‭13‬-‭16‬ ‭NKJV‬‬


Both clothing and hair is a cultural thing.
Do you know what constitutes long and short? In every culture it’s different, I’m sure!

What about thinning hair, the hair is not so covered? Women who have cancer and other hormonal problems should probably cover. There are many people in this country suffering from a loss of hair, for whatever reasons. Don’t be so judgmental and adamant!!


What is your point here?

Well in at least a couple of these points I think the problem is at least partially that people do not know enough of what was common knowledge in the 1st century. Both the issue of women's hair in Corinth and the strange beasts in Rev. 9:7 would seem to share a link with the miracle at Cana and 2 Timothy 3:16 among other passages including some elsewhere in Paul, in Acts and both Matthew and Luke. But to explain it would require a lot of education for most people because the knowledge is not taught as being at all related to the bible as if it is, we do not understand a lot of what is being said.

 

[TruthDefender]

We know the Roman Emperors didn't tolerate anyone who's loyalty was divided. The Jews and Christians, obviously placed God above the Emperors and that crime incurred the death penalty.

The other ethnic groups in the Roman Empire, such as the Greeks were all pagan. The Emperor had no problem with the pagan Greeks and their false gods, since false gods posed no threat. Everyone could see that the pagan Greek statues were dead and those who worshipped them were delusional.

It's no different today, Christians and Jews are the two most hated groups in the entire world, because we have always been seen as a threat to the rulers of the world.

The Devil is not challenging or threatening false teachers, in any way. Since they're doing His bidding for Him.

The RCC v Protestants, is a complexed subject. I'd rather not get too deep into it here and now. But I would like cover it one day.

Traditions vs TRUTH (of all sorts of things)

 

[GWH]

All of that is true and I'm sure most Christians are well aware of it. But not many are willing to discuss the reasons why so many denominations, teach radically different and opposing doctrines.

So far we have considered those denominations which share those foundational, non negotiable core doctrines. But there are hundreds if not thousands which don't accept them. They teach very different versions of the gospel.

I don't believe that the denominations will ever reach a consensus, and unite as One Church. The opposite is true, the Church is disintegrating into more and more separate denominations.

The Vatican invented the "Ecumenical Movement", decades ago. Their goal was to try and unite as many Christian Denominations as they possibly could. Their efforts are ongoing with varied results over the decades. I view the ecumenical meetings, as a "race to the bottom". They're all supposed to leave their "Denominational Flags" at home and come to the meeting as a neutral or impartial participant in "spiritual fornication".

All Christians are spiritually united by sharing the same Holy Spirit when they accept the one Messiah as the one Lord per the one Gospel/GRFS. (Eph. 4:4-6)

 

[rewriter]

Traditions vs TRUTH (of all sorts of things)

Also ignoring all sorts of other inconvenient information. Such as more Christians are killed over religious differences by other Christians than by all other religions combined. The same holds true for Muslim on Muslim violence and I believe for Hindu on Hindu also and historically at least, for Buddhist onBuddhist.

 

[TruthDefender]

Well in at least a couple of these points I think the problem is at least partially that people do not know enough of what was common knowledge in the 1st century. Both the issue of women's hair in Corinth and the strange beasts in Rev. 9:7 would seem to share a link with the miracle at Cana and 2 Timothy 3:16 among other passages including some elsewhere in Paul, in Acts and both Matthew and Luke. But to explain it would require a lot of education for most people because the knowledge is not taught as being at all related to the bible as if it is, we do not understand a lot of what is being said.

So why mention it? Idk even why you brought this up?

 

[TruthDefender]

Also ignoring all sorts of other inconvenient information. Such as more Christians are killed over religious differences by other Christians than by all other religions combined. The same holds true for Muslim on Muslim violence and I believe for Hindu on Hindu also and historically at least, for Buddhist onBuddhist.

Doubt it

 

[Journey_man]

That sounds all well and good, except that the Jews had special status under Roman rule. Following the 1st Jewish war that status was regained by the Jews, but not by the Christians even though they were viewed as a special group within the Jews. Persecutions in the 80's CE were directed at the Christians independently of the balance of the Jewish population even though they were officially Jews into the 90's CE.

So, what was the serious threat posed by the Jews and Christians that warranted such special attention? And when answering, remember that of all the temples that the Romans destroyed, on purpose or accidentally, only two were never at least partially restored, and both were Jewish. Bonus points if you can identify both destroyed Jewish temples that existed under Rome, and a hint, they were destroyed about 3 years apart.

I'm don't know which Jewish Temples your referring to but I only know the first one was destroyed by the Babylonians in 586 BC, then the second one was destroyed in 70 AD by the Romans.

The rulers and kings of this world have always feared those who follow God. King Herod the Roman-appointed King of Judea, is the ruler who ordered the killing of all boys aged two and under in Bethlehem and its surrounding areas.

King Herod, obviously considered the Lord Jesus to be a threat to him. I'm sure he never considered the false Greek gods, to be a threat to him. Nobody is afraid of false non existent gods, and pagan religions.

 

[Journey_man]

All Christians are spiritually united by sharing the same Holy Spirit when they accept the one Messiah as the one Lord per the one Gospel/GRFS. (Eph. 4:4-6)

Eph. 4:4-6 is about believers in the Apostolic Church of the 1st century, "it's not speaking about "All Christians" today.

Most Christians have departed from the Apostolic Church Model, to form their new denomination. Their reason for departing was and still is, because they don't want to conform to the Church which Christ established. The denominations have taken the law into their own hands and changed everything to suit themselves.

 

[TruthDefender]

Eph. 4:4-6 is about believers in the Apostolic Church of the 1st century, "it's not speaking about "All Christians" today.

Most Christians have departed from the Apostolic Church Model, to form their new denomination. Their reason for departing was and still is, because they don't want to conform to the Church which Christ established. The denominations have taken the law into their own hands and changed everything to suit themselves.

Saul Paul wrote this letter to the church at Ephesus about being unified in Christ.

This letter, like all letters in the NT, pertains to us today; we can apply everything written to our needs today, because nothing has changed. The churches from 2000 yrs ago were our examples, written for our benefit.

 

[TruthDefender]

All Christians are spiritually united by sharing the same Holy Spirit when they accept the one Messiah as the one Lord per the one Gospel/GRFS. (Eph. 4:4-6)

This is not true!

Jesus gave us an example when some told Him that His actual mother and brothers were outside waiting for Him. What did He say to them?

This account was repeated in the first 3 books by 3 different people.

“While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12‬:‭46‬-‭50‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[rewriter]

I'm don't know which Jewish Temples your referring to but I only know the first one was destroyed by the Babylonians in 586 BC, then the second one was destroyed in 70 AD by the Romans.

The rulers and kings of this world have always feared those who follow God. King Herod the Roman-appointed King of Judea, is the ruler who ordered the killing of all boys aged two and under in Bethlehem and its surrounding areas.

King Herod, obviously considered the Lord Jesus to be a threat to him. I'm sure he never considered the false Greek gods, to be a threat to him. Nobody is afraid of false non existent gods, and pagan religions.

The problem is that the Romans feared ALL gods, they did not distinguish between "true" and "false" gods. And your ignorance about Jewish temples is one of the problems with traditional Christian teachings. Archeology and historic records indicate that there were at least 5 Jewish temples over the centuries, most often with at least two existing at the same time, the official Jerusalem one and a second one somewhere else that the official temple did not condemn, but rather cordially communicated with.

 

[GWH]

Eph. 4:4-6 is about believers in the Apostolic Church of the 1st century, "it's not speaking about "All Christians" today.

Most Christians have departed from the Apostolic Church Model, to form their new denomination. Their reason for departing was and still is, because they don't want to conform to the Church which Christ established. The denominations have taken the law into their own hands and changed everything to suit themselves.

No, GW teaches that there is only one church/body of Christ, which includes all saved souls, past, present and future.

Isn’t spiritual unity amazing?!

 

[GWH]

This is not true!

Jesus gave us an example when some told Him that His actual mother and brothers were outside waiting for Him. What did He say to them?

This account was repeated in the first 3 books by 3 different people.

“While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12‬:‭46‬-‭50‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

View attachment 288045

So what do you think was untrue in what I said?

 

[ATG]

And why does Paul imply that he never set out on a missionary journey until after the Jerusalem Council when Acts has it after he has returned. Why does Acts have Paul in places at times when Paul says he was not there? Who is correct, Paul or Luke, the presumed author of Acts?

Why do people fain dault without giving evidence?

 

[ATG]

I pay attention to details because details can matter.

You pay attention to details you insert, that don't matter. Not to details of the account, which is all that matters.

Progress in any field is not made by staying in the middle of the accumulated knowledge in the field. Rather it is gained by looking at the edges of the field and looking at what does not fit and then figuring out why it does not fit.

Looking for something outside the edges, and figuring out how it doesn't fit within the edges. It's because your outside the edges stuff, are not within the edges.

We are reading ancient histories in the Bible, histories written at a time when a good history, a history worth preserving, placed more emphasis on delivering a message than reporting the truth. Invented events or speeches were standard, even expected, if they advanced the desired message.

And so, you are just an unbeliever reading the Bible like a book of historical fiction.

Rewriter is just your name for it.

 

[ATG]

If a person is deceived by false teachers, then it means they are not led by the Holy Spirit and God has handed them over to serve sin and Satan.

This is not necessarily true. People can be decieved by false doctrine and theology from the the Bible, and yet repent when Scripture reveals God's truth to us personally.

Afterall, Paul the apostle was Saul of Tarsus:

Ti 1:13
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

And there were many decieved by the false doctrine of the Jews, that supported the crucifixion of Jesus, who later repented at hearing the truth of His words:

Acts 2:37
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?...Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

It's only when God clearly pierces our hearts with His Scriptural truth, that we are then fully responsible for our own rebellion, if we repent not, but go on believing and living a lie:

2Th 2:10
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[ATG]

Why us so much easier to say Christ than to say Jesus?

Gal 6:2
Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Ask Jesus.