False teaching by separating Scripture from Scripture

[ATG]

committed by professing members of the visible church who were never true believers to begin with.

While there are certainly unbelieving members of churches, having no faith in the Lord for saving forgiveness and cleansing, the Scritures record honest believers, that do forsake the Lord by transgression, beginning with Adam the son of God. The anointed King Saul. And of course the chosen apostle Judas Iscariot.

And that includes all the believing Jews, that forsook the Lord at the cross, and were all cut off from the Israel of God as unbelievers.

And so, the warning of Heb 10 and Rom 11 is the same for Paul and us all, that we should not be highminded in our faith, and presume our own justification and guiltlessness by faith, while likewise transgressing after the manner of Adam.

Rom 11:18
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

We see once again, how that the disobedient Jews were counted as unbelievers by forsaking Jesus, but are grafted in again by repentance and faith toward Jesus for saving mercy and grace. So also we are warned, that we too can be cut off by transgression against Jesus, but can also repent likewise and be grafted in again.

However, if we become presumtpive in our own transgression by highmindedness in our own faith, then we will not humble ourselves with the guilty called to repentance. Rather in our own decpetive faith and doctrine, we can remain condemned with the unrepentant transgressors of the world.

1Jo 5:16
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sinning unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

If we are transgressing and seeking saving mercy and foriveness from Jesus Christ, we can pray for ourselves and others likewise. But, if we are unrepentant without godly sorrow, then we will not pray to God, nor are we to pray for others that likewise harden themselves and repent not.

 

[rewriter]

Paul was not a reprobate when writing Heb 11, and speaking of himself with us believers. He was an apostle and holy man of God writing Scripture of God to we the people of faith.

Quite right, as Paul did not write Hebrews, it was written by some unknown personage. Some scholars even suggest it was written by a woman. But only fools claim Paul wrote it, even the ancients knew that was not true, they only used the claim to justify its inclusion, not because they believed it

 

[ATG]

The Greek text indicates a deliberate, ongoing lifestyle of sinning (ekousios hamartanontōn) after coming to the knowledge of the truth.

Psa 106:3
Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that is doing righteousness at all times.

God's righteousness is at all times.

1Jo 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever is doing unrighteousness is not of God, neither he that is not loving his brother.

If we are doing unrighteousness at any time, we are not doing righteousness of God. If we are not loving a brother or sister at any time, we are not loving them at all.

If we are stealing at any time, we are a thief at the time. Any thief committing theft at any time, is committing to stealing at the time.

Eph{4:28}
Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with [his] hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

God's commanded repentance for His mercy's sake, is to steal no more, not to steal less than before.

God's righteousness is not the relative righteousness of man, that presumes to outweigh present evil doing with practices in general.

The righteous God's balance sheet of judgment is the work we are doing is judged. Not yesterday's work, nor tommorrow's that may not come.

Eccl 12:14
For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
1 Peter {1:15}
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judges according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

In the context of Hebrews, this specific "wilful sin" is the definitive rejection of Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice in favour of returning to an alternative system like Temple Judaism.

We ought not inject whole doctrines into specific words, that say nothing of them.

In any case, if we believers wiluflly sin and reject Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice in favour of returning to an alternative system like Temple Judaism....Then there remains no more sacrifice for us believers, who have made ourselves unbelievers by transgressing the Lord's commandment.

True believers are eternally secure and cannot lose true saving faith.

1Co 10:12
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Psa 19:13
Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.

Whether we presume we shall not be guilty of transgression, by transgressing the Lord's commandments, or presume we shall never transgress again, we are presuming on the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ to wash and save us, whether we are doing good or evil.

Pro 16:18
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Those who completely fall away demonstrate that their initial profession of faith was external and unregenerate, not rooted in true election.

The preumption to judge someone we once heartily loved as a brother and sister in the Lord, to have been nothing but a dirty dog and pig all along, is also highminded pride leading to our own fall:

For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Though many were unbelievers in Jesus Christ, there were certainly believing disiciples cut off at the cross, for forsaking Him. Notably Peter:

Mat 26:75
And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

And if such highminded judgment of them that fall away, is in order to justify a tradition of no 'true' believer ever forsook the Lord. That shows it's a presumptive tradition itself that leads to pride before a fall ourselves. As well as being contrary to the Scriptural record and doctrine of truth.

Which Scriptures have already been given abundantly here, for anyone to read, believe, and be warned.

Heb 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

 

[GWH]

Something I believe you are missing is the biblical distinction between works intended to earn salvation and obedience that results from faith.

The Bible clearly teaches that salvation is by the grace of God through faith (Eph. 2:8–9). But Scripture never defines genuine faith as merely believing while refusing to obey what God commands. Biblical faith responds to God.

Noah believed God and built and entered the ark (Heb. 11:7). Israel believed and passed through the Red Sea (Heb. 11:29). Naaman believed God's word and went into the Jordan (2 Kings 5:10–14). The blind man believed Jesus and washed in the pool of Siloam (John 9:7). None of those acts earned God's grace. They were God-ordained responses of faith.

Water baptism should be understood the same way. Being baptized does not earn salvation or place God in our debt. It is an obedient response of faith to the command of Jesus and the gospel preached by His apostles. That is why Peter could command believers, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins” (Acts 2:38), and why Ananias told Saul, “Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord” (Acts 22:16).

So the issue is not grace versus baptism or faith versus baptism. The biblical question is whether saving faith obeys what God has commanded. Calling obedience to God's command “salvation by works” creates a conflict between faith and obedience that Scripture itself does not create.

Well, I missed understanding that you view water baptism as a work that follows faith, so I guess we agree.

God's requirement for salvation (GRFS/the kerygma) can be stated in various ways, which may cause confusion. Some statements (e.g. Acts 16:31 & Eph. 2:8-9) are in terms of believing right, and others (e.g. Matt. 7:21, “only he who does the will of my Father will enter heaven”, cf. Gal. 6:7-9 & Eph. 2:10) are in terms of behaving right. This prompts the question: Is salvation obtained by believing God’s words or by doing God’s works? The answer is indicated by John 6:29: “The work of God is to believe in the one [Messiah/Christ] He has sent.” As Jesus stated (in John 14:6): “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

The mind of Jesus is truth incarnate (John 1:14), and all truth manifests the Spirit of Christ or God (1John 5:6). The work of God (GRFS) is to seek and believe the truth, and part of the truth is that no one comes to know God as Father except through faith in God’s truth embodied as God the Son. Good/Godly works are very important but not necessary for salvation. Witness the thief on the cross in Luke 23:39-43, who had no opportunity to work after his conversion.

The didache teaches God’s will regarding how saints or those who have been saved should live in order to be a good witness for Christ, which involves learning more of God’s Word throughout one’s lifetime. A passage teaching this truth is Col. 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].” There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 1Cor. 15:10, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.

Although perfection is not achieved in this life, the necessity of learning the didache in order to strive for perfection indicates the need for perseverance or to keep on learning and growing spiritually until we die physically (Phil. 3:12-14). Thus, although learning any specific part of the didache or doing any particular work is not GRFS, a person who does not “hunger and thirst for righteousness” (Matt. 5:6) or want to learn “every word that comes from the mouth of God” (Matt. 4:4) fails the self-examination Paul commanded and Jesus implied.

Confusion may arise because a few verses in Acts speak as though water baptism (WB) was kerygmatic or sacramental, but Paul said there is only one baptism (Eph. 4:5), so we must view WB as a symbolic way of portraying baptism by the HS (SB). Both outward confession and water baptism may be seen as works manifesting love for God that every new Believer may want to perform following his/her decision to have saving faith (cf. Matt. 3:13-15, Acts 2:38). Let us simply say that saints should seek to become morally perfect (Matt. 5:48) or pure (Phil. 1:10& 2:15) or spiritually mature (Eph. 4:13, Phil. 3:12-15), which means to remain filled by or to be in step with the Holy Spirit (Gal. 5:25) more and more of the time (Phil. 1:9, 1Thes. 4:1 &10).

 

[ATG]

There is a striking thematic parallel between the "straight" way associated with John the Baptist and the "street which is called Straight" to which Saul was sent.

John the Baptist's ministry was described this way: The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias." — John 1:23, KJV

Then, in Saul's conversion: "Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth." — Acts 9:11, KJV

The parallel:​

John's mission was to prepare people for the coming of Jesus. His message was repentance, and he administered "the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" (Mark 1:4). The crooked way of man had to be made straight in preparation for receiving Christ.


Paul's experience follows that pattern personally. He was sincerely religious, but he was traveling in the wrong direction—literally on a road to Damascus for the purpose of persecuting those who called upon Jesus' name (Acts 9:1-2). Jesus stopped him, humbled him, and then sent him into Damascus. Remarkably, the place where Saul awaited God's further instruction was "the street which is called Straight."

There is an especially interesting connection when we follow the story through Acts 19.

John prepared the way by preaching repentance and baptism while pointing people forward to Jesus: "John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." — Acts 19:4

Paul then took people who had stopped at John's baptism and brought them into what John had been preparing them to receive: "When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." — Acts 19:5

So there is a progression:
John: "Make straight the way of the Lord" → repentance → points people toward Jesus.
Saul: Jesus stops him on his way → sends him to Straight Street → Ananias gives him God's command concerning Jesus' name.

Paul: later preaches the same truth to John's disciples → they believe John's testimony concerning Jesus → are baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus → receive the Holy Ghost (Acts 19:4-6).


Another connection. When Ananias found Saul on Straight Street, he eventually gave him the command Paul later recounted: "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." — Acts 22:16

That means "make straight the way of the Lord" and "the street which is called Straight" both occur in contexts involving repentance, baptism, and coming into proper relationship with Jesus.


John was preparing a straight way for people to come to Christ. Saul was placed on Straight Street as Christ brought him from his own way into obedience to God's way. Then Saul became Paul and spent the remainder of his ministry directing others down that same path toward Jesus.

So, John was sent to make the Lord's way straight; Saul was sent to a street called Straight so that he could learn the Lord's way. The man who had been traveling the wrong road to persecute those who called upon Jesus' name was stopped by Jesus, redirected to Straight Street, and commanded to wash away his sins calling upon that very name. He then became an apostle who spent his life directing others to the same Jesus.

The geographical name in Acts 9:11 was literal. But within the larger biblical narrative, its placement at precisely this turning point in Saul's life creates a powerful picture: Jesus took a man headed the wrong way and put him on "Straight."

John's baptism was unto repentance to prepare for the Lord.

Jesus' baptism is after repentance to recieve the Lord.

Recieving the Lord is our faith, newbirth, salvation, and justification. Not being handled by men in water in the name of the Lord.

Since Jesus commands water baptism to His newborn people, then we certainly ought make straightway to be baptized, as well as keep all the Lord's commandments...

I know how it must feel to have a whole great speech undone by a simple truth of Scripture, but then simple truths of Scripture don't take whole great speeches. Just quote the Scriptures, and let them speak for themselves.

Neh 8:8
So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

 

[ATG]

You stated, "The Scripture only forbids drunkenness, not drinking wine."

John the Baptist: An angel prophesied to his father, Zacharias, that John "must never drink wine or strong drink" (Luke 1:15),
living a life of strict asceticism.

Samson: Set apart as a Nazarite from birth, Samson was commanded by an angel never to drink wine or strong drink,
nor eat anything made from the grapevine (Judges 13:4, 7)

Hannah: When praying deeply for a child at the tabernacle, she defended herself against accusations of drunkenness
by telling Eli the priest, "I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink" (1 Samuel 1:15).

I'm not Nazarite, nor John the Baptist. Neither were Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, Daniel...nor Jesus, who was a Nazarene, not a Nazarite. Nor did any command his mother, that Jesus should be a Nazarite to not drink wine, nor cut his hair...

Nor am I a person that has never drank wine and strong drink, as a defence against drunkenness. And the charge was drunkeness, not drinking wine or strong drink, for which there is no charge in Scripture. Only drunkenness.

Nor do I need a defence of drunkeness, since I don't get drunk. Nor did Jesus, when he ate and drank wine with His new disciple Matthew, and his old sinner friends.

Luk 7:33
For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

Jesus did not live John's life of 'strict asceticism'.

I certainly did not intend this to be an opening to encourage nor discourage drinking wine and strong drink. But only as a clear example of practicing our liberty in the law of the Lord, without imposing our personal conscience on others.

1Co 10:29
Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?

But, hey, go ahead and preach your personal anti-alcohol religion, and I'll let the Scriptures do my talking. (I was a holiness Pentecost of the Pentecosts. I already know every speudo-Scripture argument you have. Including the superficial ones you've just given.)

Phl 3:5
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

 

[ATG]

Acts 11:14-18
He will convey to you a message by which you and all your household will be saved. As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, just as He had fallen upon us at the beginning. Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ So if God gave them the same gift He gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to hinder the work of God?” When they heard this, they had no further objections, and they glorified God, saying, “So then, God has
granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”

The Gentiles received the Holy Spirit without a water baptism and without any repentance.

My argument is against the tradition of past, present, and future sins already forgiven by Jesus death on the cross. Against preforgiveness of sins not yet committed, much less yet repented and confessed.

The Gentiles received the Holy Spirit without a water baptism and without any repentance.

You're making the classic error of separating scripture from scripture. In this case, Vs 18 from vs 14-17, as though they did not repent.

The Gentiles are granted repentance unto life. They recieved the Spirit of life with repentance granted by God. They were then water baptism after being granted repentance unto life.

All Scriptures preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ begin with repentance, beginning with Jesus:

Mat 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

The message itself that Peter spoke was the sole reason for the salvation of the Gentiles.

Preaching the word alone does not save anyone:

Mark{1:15}
The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Mar 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Nor does hearing the word only:

James{1:22}
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Only doers of the word are justified with God:

Acts 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

In the gospel of Jesus Christ, there is no faith, conversion, nor remission of sins without repenting.

if we want to separate repentance from recieving the Holy Spirit in Acts 10, then we must also separate faith, conversion, and remission of sins, that are also not mentioned in Acts 10:14-17. But, since repentance is recorded in vs 18, then we know repentance, faith, conversion, and remissions of sins are also for recieving the Spirit of life.

If we want to preach a gospel of recieving the Spirit without repentance, then we must also preach another gospel of reciving the Spirit without faith, conversion, and remission of sins...

Gal 1:6
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

 

[ATG]

So are you under the law or not?

We do not transgress the NT law of Jesus Christ. We are not bound to keep the OT law of Moses.

Don't you know the difference?

1Ti 1:7
Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

 

[ATG]

If you are under the law then you are a legalist.

Your algorithm for salvation is displayed below.

Salvation = law + Jesus + repentance + sacraments (water baptism, breaking the bread, fellowship, etc)

2 Timothy{6:20}
O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called.

'Algorithm' salvation theory itself is nonsense.

Mark{1:15}
The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Acts 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

If we repent and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, we are forgiven, washed, saved from all our old sins, and recieve Jesus Christ all at once in the same time.

1 Cor 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind…Gal 5:19 and such like of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

1Co 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

2Co 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,

As holy new creatures in Christ Jesus, we keep His commandments blameless and transgress not His law, which is given to us by Himself, through His chosen apostles in the NT Scriptures of God.

Not an 'algorithm', but a whole new life in God's righteousness and true holiness:

1 Peter {1:15}
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning in fear:

 

[Inquisitor]

I'm not Nazarite, nor John the Baptist. Neither were Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, Daniel...nor Jesus, who was a Nazarene, not a Nazarite. Nor did any command his mother, that Jesus should be a Nazarite to not drink wine, nor cut his hair...

Nor am I a person that has never drank wine and strong drink, as a defence against drunkenness. And the charge was drunkeness, not drinking wine or strong drink, for which there is no charge in Scripture. Only drunkenness.

Nor do I need a defence of drunkeness, since I don't get drunk. Nor did Jesus, when he ate and drank wine with His new disciple Matthew, and his old sinner friends.

Luk 7:33
For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

Jesus did not live John's life of 'strict asceticism'.

I certainly did not intend this to be an opening to encourage nor discourage drinking wine and strong drink. But only as a clear example of practicing our liberty in the law of the Lord, without imposing our personal conscience on others.

1Co 10:29
Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?

But, hey, go ahead and preach your personal anti-alcohol religion, and I'll let the Scriptures do my talking. (I was a holiness Pentecost of the Pentecosts. I already know every speudo-Scripture argument you have. Including the superficial ones you've just given.)

Phl 3:5
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

When you have so many folk that struggle with alcohol in society would not a total abstinence, be the wiser course
to follow?

Alcohol does damage to your health even with a low intake.

I have known former alcoholics in church and the deep struggle they endure everyday for years and years.

Paul even said he would no longer eat meat if that caused someone to stumble!

1 Corinthians 8:13
If what I eat causes my brother or sister to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again.

Paul taught that love and protecting the faith of others mattered more than exercising personal freedom.

Here we have you exercising your full liberty in Christ regardless of the impact on others.

Which is the antithesis of the primary Christian instruction which is others come first not your personal freedom in Christ!

 

[ATG]

None of the above verses say that salvation can be lost.

No Scripture says salvation is won. We don't preach winning nor losing salvation, but only overcoming temptation by Jesus Christ, or falling from grace by transgression.

2 Peter 1:3
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Rev 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

[ATG]

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
Christ perfected for all time those who are sanctified by a single offering, meaning no future sacrifice or re-justification is ever needed.

The once-for-all sacrifice of Jesus Christ legally paid for every sin—past, present, and future—of the elect, meaning a believer's ultimate legal status of justification is permanently secure. However, we need to carefully distinguish between forensic (legal) forgiveness and ongoing relational fellowship with God, maintaining that believers must still daily repent of new sins.

Already corrected.

Romans 8:1 declares there is "no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus", this all-encompassing judicial verdict covers a believer's entire life span.

Finish the Scripture.

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

The error of separating Scripture from Scripture of course includes cutting Scripture off mid-verse.

Colossians 2:13-14 notes that God has forgiven all our trespasses, having cancelled the record of debt that stood against us.

Already corrected.

The legal penalty for all future sins was settled at the cross. A Christian does not become "un-justified" or spiritually unborn when they sin. When a believer sins, they sin against their Heavenly Father. This brings a temporary break in experiential communion and invites God's loving fatherly discipline rather than His judicial wrath.

Believers continue to pray for and confess sin, not to secure a new salvation or reverse damnation, but to restore active fellowship, humble the heart, and clear the conscience.

Already corrected.

Rom 16:18
For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

The gospel of sinning without guilt, only leads to more transgressions without repentance.

Mat 15:14
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

 

[ATG]

Quite right, as Paul did not write Hebrews, it was written by some unknown personage.

Some scholars even suggest it was written by a woman. But only fools claim Paul wrote it, even the ancients knew that was not true, they only used the claim to justify its inclusion, not because they believed it

I've already told you, that I don't argue Scripture of God, with people who write their own.

 

[ATG]

When you have so many folk that struggle with alcohol in society would not a total abstinence, be the wiser course
to follow?

This isn't about man's wisdom, but about not preaching our personal rules to others, as law of Christ.

Mar 7:7
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Tit 1:14
Not giving heed to commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

I'm giving the Scriptural rule for how not to do so, and also how to avoid letting others do so.

Paul even said he would no longer eat meat if that caused someone to stumble!

1 Corinthians 8:13
If what I eat causes my brother or sister to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again.

True. Neither wine nor meat. Are you a vegan too?

We should not push our liberty on newborn babes, whose consciences are still weak in the things they just escaped.

We need to learn the difference between law of Christ for all to obey, and wisdom of the strong in faith not to offend and destroy the weak.

Here we have you exercising your full liberty in Christ regardless of the impact on others.

Here we have you trying to preach your personal law to others. Which is why you make a baseless accusation, because I rebuke it by Scripture.

1. If you are weak in the faith on certain matters, then don't engage in arguments of the law, especially not online.

2. I am not exhorting anyone to use their liberty in any thing, especially not to drink wine. I am teaching the liberty of the law as written.

1Co 8:8
But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

Paul is teaching the liberty of the law, not exercising his full liberty on others.

Which is the antithesis of the primary Christian instruction which is others come first not your personal freedom in Christ!

Which is the antithesis of the primary Christian instruction which is others come first not your personal command to others in Christ!

Jas 4:11
Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

Jas 4:12
There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

They're not weak babes in Christ in need of patience and forbearance, but are highminded Christians, who think they're strong, because they make a law out of their own weakness.

1Pe 4:15
But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.

Go peddle your 'zero-tolerance' law elsewhere, I'm not interested.

 

[Inquisitor]

Which is the antithesis of the primary Christian instruction which is others come first not your personal command to others in Christ!

Your supporting my argument.

Love of others as I have loved you is the commandment which means the concern for others comes first.

The goal of all Christian instruction is that agape love of others.

 

[Inquisitor]

This isn't about man's wisdom, but about not preaching our personal rules to others, as law of Christ.

Mar 7:7
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Tit 1:14
Not giving heed to commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

I'm giving the Scriptural rule for how not to do so, and also how to avoid letting others do so.



True. Neither wine nor meat. Are you a vegan too?

We should not push our liberty on newborn babes, whose consciences are still weak in the things they just escaped.

We need to learn the difference between law of Christ for all to obey, and wisdom of the strong in faith not to offend and destroy the weak.





Here we have you trying to preach your personal law to others. Which is why you make a baseless accusation, because I rebuke it by Scripture.

1. If you are weak in the faith on certain matters, then don't engage in arguments of the law, especially not online.

2. I am not exhorting anyone to use their liberty in any thing, especially not to drink wine. I am teaching the liberty of the law as written.

1Co 8:8
But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

Paul is teaching the liberty of the law, not exercising his full liberty on others.



Which is the antithesis of the primary Christian instruction which is others come first not your personal command to others in Christ!

Jas 4:11
Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

Jas 4:12
There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

They're not weak babes in Christ in need of patience and forbearance, but are highminded Christians, who think they're strong, because they make a law out of their own weakness.

1Pe 4:15
But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.

Go peddle your 'zero-tolerance' law elsewhere, I'm not interested.

How do you define "sin"?

How do you define "the law of Christ"?

 

[Wansvic]

Well, I missed understanding that you view water baptism as a work that follows faith, so I guess we agree.

God's requirement for salvation (GRFS/the kerygma) can be stated in various ways, which may cause confusion. Some statements (e.g. Acts 16:31 & Eph. 2:8-9) are in terms of believing right, and others (e.g. Matt. 7:21, “only he who does the will of my Father will enter heaven”, cf. Gal. 6:7-9 & Eph. 2:10) are in terms of behaving right. This prompts the question: Is salvation obtained by believing God’s words or by doing God’s works? The answer is indicated by John 6:29: “The work of God is to believe in the one [Messiah/Christ] He has sent.” As Jesus stated (in John 14:6): “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

The mind of Jesus is truth incarnate (John 1:14), and all truth manifests the Spirit of Christ or God (1John 5:6). The work of God (GRFS) is to seek and believe the truth, and part of the truth is that no one comes to know God as Father except through faith in God’s truth embodied as God the Son. Good/Godly works are very important but not necessary for salvation. Witness the thief on the cross in Luke 23:39-43, who had no opportunity to work after his conversion.

The didache teaches God’s will regarding how saints or those who have been saved should live in order to be a good witness for Christ, which involves learning more of God’s Word throughout one’s lifetime. A passage teaching this truth is Col. 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].” There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 1Cor. 15:10, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.

Although perfection is not achieved in this life, the necessity of learning the didache in order to strive for perfection indicates the need for perseverance or to keep on learning and growing spiritually until we die physically (Phil. 3:12-14). Thus, although learning any specific part of the didache or doing any particular work is not GRFS, a person who does not “hunger and thirst for righteousness” (Matt. 5:6) or want to learn “every word that comes from the mouth of God” (Matt. 4:4) fails the self-examination Paul commanded and Jesus implied.

Confusion may arise because a few verses in Acts speak as though water baptism (WB) was kerygmatic or sacramental, but Paul said there is only one baptism (Eph. 4:5), so we must view WB as a symbolic way of portraying baptism by the HS (SB). Both outward confession and water baptism may be seen as works manifesting love for God that every new Believer may want to perform following his/her decision to have saving faith (cf. Matt. 3:13-15, Acts 2:38). Let us simply say that saints should seek to become morally perfect (Matt. 5:48) or pure (Phil. 1:10& 2:15) or spiritually mature (Eph. 4:13, Phil. 3:12-15), which means to remain filled by or to be in step with the Holy Spirit (Gal. 5:25) more and more of the time (Phil. 1:9, 1Thes. 4:1 &10).

I would hope not, but it appears that you are intentionally misrepresenting my meaning. I have never claimed that water baptism is a human work performed after faith. Baptism is an act of obedient faith—our response to God’s command. Scripture describes being “buried with him in baptism” and raised with Him “through the faith of the operation of God” (Colossians 2:12). The saving power belongs to God, but genuine faith responds in obedience (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Romans 1:5; 16:26).

 

[Wansvic]

John's baptism was unto repentance to prepare for the Lord.

Jesus' baptism is after repentance to recieve the Lord.

Recieving the Lord is our faith, newbirth, salvation, and justification. Not being handled by men in water in the name of the Lord.

Since Jesus commands water baptism to His newborn people, then we certainly ought make straightway to be baptized, as well as keep all the Lord's commandments...

I know how it must feel to have a whole great speech undone by a simple truth of Scripture, but then simple truths of Scripture don't take whole great speeches. Just quote the Scriptures, and let them speak for themselves.

Neh 8:8
So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

Peter did not command already “newborn people” to be baptized sometime after salvation. When convicted sinners asked what they must do, he answered:

“Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost” (Acts 2:38).

Also, Ananias told the believing, repentant, and praying Saul, “Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord” (Acts 22:16). Paul later explained that those baptized into Christ were baptized into His death, buried with Him, and raised to walk in newness of life (Rom. 6:3–4; Gal. 3:27; Col. 2:12).

Receiving Jesus involves faith, but biblical faith does not separate believing from obeying what Christ commanded. Jesus “became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him” (Hebrews 5:9).

Lasting, Nehemiah 8:8 does not teach us to quote isolated verses. It says they “gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.” That requires allowing all the relevant Scriptures to speak—not redefining baptism as something commanded only after the new birth when Scripture never says that.

 

[GWH]

I would hope not, but it appears that you are intentionally misrepresenting my meaning. I have never claimed that water baptism is a human work performed after faith. Baptism is an act of obedient faith—our response to God’s command. Scripture describes being “buried with him in baptism” and raised with Him “through the faith of the operation of God” (Colossians 2:12). The saving power belongs to God, but genuine faith responds in obedience (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Romans 1:5; 16:26).

I see that we disagree again, because I believe the NT teaches sinners are saved by faith in the atonement of Christ (Rom. 3:20-5:11),
although various good works motivated by such saving faith including water baptism will follow (Eph. 2:8-10).

 

[Wansvic]

I see that we disagree again, because I believe the NT teaches sinners are saved by faith in the atonement of Christ (Rom. 3:20-5:11),
although various good works motivated by such saving faith including water baptism will follow (Eph. 2:8-10).

We are saved through faith. (Eph. 2:8-9) And believing and obedience to what God's word states about water baptism in the name of Jesus brings about the reality of having one's sins remitted. Paul points out that not all obey the gospel. (Rom. 10:16) How does one obey the gospel message of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus? There is a obvious parallel. Believers die to themselves through repentance, are buried with Jesus into His death in obedience to water baptism in His name, and receive resurrection power after becoming indwelt with His Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38)

As for Romans 3:20–5:11 it teaches that no one can earn justification through works of the Mosaic law. It does not teach that saving faith is merely an inward belief in Christ’s atonement, followed later by baptism as an outward good work.