False teaching by separating Scripture from Scripture

[ATG]

You don't don't get to win salvation,

Thansk for repeating me. Repetition is high praise.

nor do you have the power to overcome temptation.

If we have not the power to overcome all temptation, we have not Jesus Christ.

Rev 3:21
To him that is overcoming will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

If the Lord Jesus didn't do it for you,

Jesus does not overcome temptation for us, but with us.

Rom 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Repenting and doing good is not by feeling, but by faith with Jesus Christ.

and if it wasn't given to you as a gift, then you don't have it.

If we are falling to temptation, we have not the gift of Jesus' faith.

1Jo 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

If you have it, you can never lose it.

If we have the gift of Jesus' faith, we cannot do evil.

1Jo 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
If we are doing evil, then what we have is not good, and we must repent and lose it for Jesus' sake.

Mar 8:34
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

If you weren't predestined for salvation by God, then your profession of faith is like a house built on sand. It will not stand when the storm comes.

If we are in Christ Jesus, we are predestinated to keep His commandments, and do no evil.

Rom 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

If we are transgressing against God's commandments, we are not conformed to the Son's image, and are not known by God.

Mat 7:22
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

If we are doing a work of iniquity, our profession of faith ends in the grave.

 

[ATG]

The message originally preached at Pentecost was ultimately carried to individuals in every group of humanity; Jew, Samaritan, and Gentile (Acts 2, 8. 10, 19). None was exempt, all believers in Jesus were required to repent, be water baptized to have their sins washed away, and to receive the Holy Ghost as well.

Niether Peter nor any apostle ever preached water baptism for remission of sins, after Peter preached to the devout Jews at Pentecost.

I see it's of no use to continue going around in circles.

So, you're scriptureless record is finally running out.

But you may want to revisit the NT rebirth accounts.

No buts, just let the old sounding brass fade away already.

 

[ATG]

How do you know I have bad judgement?

How do I know you judge anyone drinking wine as a transgressor?

Because you preach drinking wine is a sin against Christ.

We are led by the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit teaches us to love others as Christ has loved us.
1 Thessalonians 4:9
Now as to the love of the brothers and sisters, you have no need for anyone to write to you, for you yourselves are taught
by God to love one another.

1Jo 3:18
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in work and in truth.
Falsely accusing the brethren of transgression, is not loving anyone.

Rev 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down,

Especially when falsely accusing Jesus Christ of sin by drinking wine with His new disciple.

Luk 7:33
For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

 

[Journey_man]

The judgment seat of Christ is us who name His name, when He comes again to sparate the wheat from the tares.

2Co 5:9
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the works done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;

Heb 10:29
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

If we are found doing good, He will first resurrect us into the air to reign with Him on earth. If we are found doing evil, He will leave us on earth apopointed to wrath with the hypocrites.

Mat 24:45
Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

Mat 24:48
But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming, And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken, The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The great white throne judgment of God, is a thousand years later, with all the rest of dead judged by works unto everlasting life or everlasting shame.





Of course not. Unfortunatly, not all men do good, but also not all do evil. And so the judgment of God separates the good from the evil, first from His judgment seat on earth, and at the end from His judgment throne in heaven.


Transgressors are not acquitted by God without repentance. Jesus' righteousness is not with evil doing.

Nah 1:3
The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked:

Job 10:14I
If I sin, then thou markest me, and thou wilt not acquit me from mine iniquity.


Rom 2:3
And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?...For there is no respect of persons with God.

The hypocrisy gospel of justifying oneself by faith, while condemning others doing the same, will fall at the grave.

Mat 15:14
They be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

If we that name Christ are found doing evil, we will be condemned greater than the world.

The sons of perdition are betrayers of Jesus Chist by unrighteous deeds, beginning with Judas Iscariot, not the heathen that knew not God.

Jhn 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

2Th 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;



True. All transgressors are unbelievers found guilty by their works.

And, as we've seen already, if we also wilfully sins against our Lord, then we also make ourselves unbelievers without Christ. If we repent not with the hardened of the world, then we condmen ourselves unto the judgment of the righeous Judge Jesus Christ.

Only if we are keeping His commandments faitfhully, are we counted the judtified believers of the Lord.



Correct. No unrepented transgressors is found written in the Lamb's Book of Life at His great white thrown judgment.


True.

Only the wheat will be found doing good at the judgment seat of Christ. The tares doing evil are appointed to wrath.


The only sure eternal salvation for any person, is the believer obeying Jesus Christ:

Heb{5:8}
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;





No person must pay for our transgressions, if we repent for Jesus' forgiveness, washing, and sactification in holy obedience to the Lord:

1 Peter {1:15}
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:


And so, in review, we see not one Scripture for all this speech. Nor one word of obedience with all the grand words of faith words.

If we only preach faith, and not obedience of the faith, then we preach faith with more disobedience to God.

Rom 16:18
By good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Rev 13:5
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies;

Your reply is full of foundational errors, you mention "good people" but the Lord Jesus said there's no such thing and only God is good.

There is not going to be 2 judgement days, separated by a 1000 years. The judgement takes place as soon as the Lord returns. He will separate the sheep from then goats, none of His sheep will be punished for their sin, because He already paid for them in full. But every one of the goats will be cast into the lake of fire where they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

My works will be burned up and I will suffer loss, but I will be saved. This burning is a refining process just as gold is refined by fire.

 

[Inquisitor]

Because you preach drinking wine is a sin against Christ.

I do not.

I never said drinking alcohol was a sin.

All I say is that given that one in ten in society will struggle with alcohol consumption, it is best to set a good example.

I have known far too many folk that drank way to much and moderation is an ideal, not a reality.

Hands down, the medical research suggests no alcohol is the best path to take.

Alcohol is a group one carcinogen.

A Group 1 carcinogen is a substance, mixture, or exposure environment that is definitively known to cause cancer in humans.
This classification by the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) means there is strong, sufficient scientific
evidence that the agent causes cancer. It indicates the strength of the evidence, not how high or likely the actual risk is.

 

[ATG]

Actsists believe that the history of the early church in Acts 1-10 (and Mark 16:16-17) makes water baptism (WB) mandatory for Christians. Folks need to stop worshipping the physical symbols and focus on what they represent. Like physical circumcision (PC) water baptism is an outward work that is appropriate, but optional.

I don't agree with your review here. Acts 2:38 baptizers do not just preach water baptism by command of the Lord, but preach water baptism is necessary for remission of sins.

I also object to minimializing water baptism is 'optional'. Throwing out the baby with the bathwater:

Mat 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Water baptism is commanded by the Lord for His disciples, but water baptism is not Jesus' gospel for remission of sins.

Repentance from dead works and faith toward God, is the gospel of recieving Jesus Christ with remission of sins. The newborn believer of Jesus Christ is then commanded to be water baptized, as you say, as an outward sign of recieving Jesus Christ and being accepted into the fellowship of the saints.

The command to be water baptised, like any command of the Lord to us, is not 'optional'. The great commission of Jesus to His disicples includes water baptism in His name.

The astute note that in Matt. 4:7 Jesus said “It is also written”, interpreting what Satan had quoted in light of another passage, which is called harmonizing Scripture and is what we should do, but some Judaizers want to require SB, just as the Pharisees required PC.

True. Whether the commanded work of circucmsion in the OT, or baptism in the NT. No commanded work must be done, before we can be saved by grace through faith.

While certain people committed to works, as in Acts 2, certainly can recieve the Holy Ghost with water baptism, the error is preaching baptism as necessary, before we can have remission of sins by the Spirit.

We don't preach water baptism for remission of sins, neither do we preach against water baptism as unnecesarry at all.

The foundation cited in 1Corinthisans 3:11 is Christ, referring to faith in Christ’s atonement (Rom. 3:12-5:1). Instructions about baptisms are mentioned in Hebrews 6:2, which logically, semantically, and mathematically had to be that WB is a sign or rite portraying a soul has been SB (Col. 2:12),

The best teaching of water baptismal sumbolism, is Peter himself declaring that water baptism is not necessary for the putting away of sins.

However, water baptism is not merely symbolic, and optional, because it is commissioned by Jesus for His new believers.

Water baptism is simply unique in the new covenant of Jesus Christ: It's necessary by commission, but not necessary for remission.

since there is only one baptism (Eph. 4:5) into one body (Eph. 4:4, 1Cor. 12:13). This understanding was held by Christians generally until RC perverted it by practicing infant sprinkling, which was corrected by the Anabaptists during the Protestant Reformation.

There is one baptism of the Spirit into the body of Christ by faith. There's also the water baptism into the fellowship of the brethren by commission of Jesus Christ.

By the last of Paul’s epistles, WB came to be understood as a good but non-essential work or rite, like physical circumcision,

Once again, you're going too far to minimalize water baptism, as merely an optional 'rite'.

Gen 17:14
And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Circumcsion certainly was necessary in the old covenant of God. So also is water baptism is necessary in the body of Christ: While obedience does not begin our covenant with God, disobedience breaks His convenant with us.

Even as in the OT, the child had covenant of God by birth of the flesh, so also have new covenant by rebirth of the Spirit.

And so, while there is no 'essential' work commanded by the Lord to be born into the kingdom of God, even as in the Israel of God.

Once having covenant with God, we do keep His commandments by the Spirit, in order not to be cut off from the covenant by disobedient transgression against the Spirit.

Then, like now, the rite is performed as an apt way of portraying saving faith in the atonement of Christ, even though the work is not required, just as PC was not required for salvation either per Paul in Romans 3:21-5:1.

Not required for salvation, but required by commission.

but no specific work is sacramental/salvific.

True. Neither water baptism nor the Lord's supper is a sacrament for salvation. However, they are commissioned as a work of faith, that if denied or defiled, cuts us off from the covenant body of Christ;

Co 11:27
Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord...For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

 

[ATG]

The book of Acts does not teach foundational Christian doctrine but merely records what occurred during the early days of the church era

This is unnecessary to the argument against Acts 2:38 as a mandate for remission of sins. And, it's not true. Acts both teaches the apostles' doctrine, and records the acts of the apostles and disciples of Jesus Christ.

Act 2:42
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Much of the doctrine of Christ is shown by the acts, but the doctrine is certainly taught in Acts. Here is the prinicple doctrine of Christ:

Heb 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Here is those principles taught in Acts:

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Paul preaches repentance, resurrection from the dead, and eternal judgment.

Act 1:4
And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Act 1:4
And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Jesus and Peter teach the doctrine of baptisms, with the Holy Ghost, and also with water.

Act 15:9
And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Peter teaches having faith toward God.

Act 6:6
Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.

Act 13:3
And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.

Act 19:6
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

And finally we have the doctrine of laying on of hands.

All the prinicple doctrioe of Christ is taught in Acts. As well as a record of the the performance of those things, that were done according to the doctrine of Christ.

 

[ATG]

Paul warned Christians to beware of Judaizers, who revert to teaching justification by observing the law

You've diverted from the argument to flirt with anti-law rhetoric. Justification is by works of faith, not by works of the law without faith.

No one repents of 'leglalism', because we are commanded to repent of transgressions. No man should ever repent of keeping the Lord's commandments, unless His law is evil.

Rom 7:12
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

By the law we repent of doing our own transgressions, through faith in Jesus Christ. Doing the law of Christ is not evil, but only vain without Christ. The same for water baptism...

1Cor 13:3
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

(Gal. 4:8-5:12). In Phil. 3:1-9 Paul said, “Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord!… Watch out for those… mutilators of the flesh. For it is we who are the circumcision [cf. Rom. 2:29]… If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more:… in regard to the law, a Pharisee… as for legalistic righteousness, faultless. But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ… I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ–that comes from God and is by faith.”

We should never conflate doing works without faith, with doing any works at all. Keeping God's commandments is good in this life, but only with faith of Jesus Christ do we have promise in the life to come.

1 Tim{4:8}
For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

Jesus taught that his righteousness (Matt. 5:10&20) surpassed and superseded that of those who obeyed and taught the law (cf. Matt. 12:5-12, 19:3-9, Heb. 7:18-10:1).

Mat 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Our righteousness with Jesus Christ exceeds that of the Pharisees, because we keep the commandments with Jesus Christ. The Pharisees did not err by keeping the law, which God commandes His people to keep.

Pro 7:2
Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.

Bad 'legalism' is simply outward obedience without inward faith. But bad faith is outward disobedience.

Mat 23:25
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess…Cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Clean living is good in this life, but only a clean heart of the Spirit lives beyond the grave. And ubnclean living is no good in this life nor that to come.

 

[GWH]

ATG, I will try to boil down your three posts into one reply, addressing what you said in order and numbering the items.

1. You - Repentance from dead works and faith toward God, is the gospel of receiving Jesus Christ with remission of sins. The newborn believer of Jesus Christ is then commanded to be water baptized, as you say, as an outward sign of receiving Jesus Christ and being accepted into the fellowship of the saints.
Me- So far, so good.

2. You - The command to be water baptized, like any command of the Lord to us, is not 'optional'. The great commission of Jesus to His disciples includes water baptism in His name. Whether the commanded work of circumcision in the OT or baptism in the NT, no commanded work must be done before we can be saved by grace through faith.
Me - You need to consider whether a command of Jesus was temporary/transitional, and whether what the Lord taught via Paul's epistles indicated WB was comparable to PC and thus optional for those who are SB/SC.

3. You - Water baptism is simply unique in the new covenant of Jesus Christ: It's necessary by commission, but not necessary for remission.
Me - WB is unique because it is transitional and not necessary, although appropriate and a good tradition followed by us Baptists.
Something symbolic is therefore not any more necessary than any other good/godly work that follows saving faith (Eph. 2:8-10).

4. You - There is one baptism of the Spirit into the body of Christ by faith. There's also the water baptism into the fellowship of the brethren by commission of Jesus Christ.
Me - one plus also = two. You do not go far enough to minus/subtract water baptism as merely an optional rite/work.

5. You - While there is no 'essential' work commanded by the Lord to be born into the kingdom of God... we do keep His commandments by the Spirit.
Me - Yes, we are reborn via receiving the Holy Spirit, who gives different gifts/works to the members of the body/kingdom,
and Paul does not list WB as one of them, although it is still appropriate and thus permissible--like the Lord's Supper.

6. You - post #747 introduces laying on hands.
Me - Yes, that is another optional/symbolic practice.

7. You - We should never conflate doing works without faith, with doing any works at all. Keeping God's commandments is good in this life, but only with faith of Jesus Christ do we have promise in the life to come... Our righteousness with Jesus Christ exceeds that of the Pharisees, because we keep the commandments with Jesus Christ. The Pharisees did not err by keeping the law, which God commands His people to keep.
Me - The Pharisees/Judaizers erred by believing they were saved via keeping the law, but the Gospel reveals that salvation is via cooperating with God's indwelling loving Holy Spirit of Christ (Rom. 5:5, 8:9).

 

[Journey_man]

No wilfull transgressor having no more sacrifice for sin, is believing on Jesus Christ, nor has any salvation from sin.

Heb 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

If we are disobeying the Lord with the world, we are friends of the world and adversaries of God.

Jas 4:4
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Jesus Christ eternally saves only His obedience saints.

Heb{5:8}

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



Deliberate sinning unrepented of, is deliberating sinning unto the grave. Dying in our deliberate sinning is eternal separation from Jesus Christ:

Jde 1:12
These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.


True. Jesus' elect are the obedient saints keeping His commandments unto the end.

2 pet 1:4
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.





Scripture is written that we sin not. Scripture also says we can repent and be forgiven if we do sin.

Scripture does not preach sinning to the people of God, but preaches sinning not.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is repent and believe on Him to sin not.

The gospel of another Christ is believe and sin more.

Rom 16:18
By good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.


The sinful religious person's life is generally less sinful than before. The irreligious sinful person's lfe is sinning without pretence.

The new creature's life in Christ Jesus is the pure religion of doing good and not evil:

2Co 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,

Jas 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.


If we transgress, we make ourselves unbelievers. But are judged worse than unbelievers that name not Christ.


2Pe 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2Pe 2:21
For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

If we are transgressing God's commandments, we are not believing on Jesus Christ to do good and not evil.

If we are transgressing God's commandments, and we are believing on a Christ to do more sinning, then we are believing in an unrighteous Christ, not the only true Christ Jesus.


I've already given abundanct Scriptures that regernate believers make ourselves degenerate transgressors, if we keep not the Lord's Holy commandment.

Contrary to the many 'explanations' of them that preach more sinning against God, with justification of their Christ.


The righteous Lord only saves a person to sin not. He only loses them that repent not.

Jhn 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

The true God does not bring sorrow to anyone, but only assurance, comfort, and hope of everlasting life.

Sorrow is brought by the hardhsips of natural life in a wicked world.

God brings judgment and shame and tribulation on His people that transgress His commandment, that we may repent and return to His saving grace and fellowship in the light.

Isa 55:7
Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

All trasngressors are unbelieving toward God, and the hardened repent not and blaspheme His gospel of righteousness by fair words and enticing to sin more.

Once again, you preach no Scripture nor obedience to the Lord, that we may sin not. But only more and more explanations of how we can sin more and more, and yet always being saved and justified by another Christ.

Psa 106:3
Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that is doing righteousness at all times.

Blessed are they always doing righteousness, not they only believing in being saved and justified at all times.

Your interpretation of these Bible verses is inconsistent, contradictory and incoherent. On the one hand you claim there is no forgiveness for believers who commit sin, then you claim that we can be forgiven if we repent and confess our sin.

Please chose a position, can a believer be forgiven for sin or not. You can't have it both ways, it's has to be a yes or no answer.

 

[Journey_man]

I can see you are now struggling to continue ignoring the Scriptures given and taught.



And so, you now therefore throw around senseless straw.

The only sinners that 'name it and claim it', are those saying they are 'saved and justified', while transgressing the Lord's commandment.



True. If we are transgressing the Lord's commandment, we are dead in our sin.

Rather than choosing to claim salvation and justification, we must repent and be saved and justified by Jesus Christ Himself.


True. All His natural creation is ruled by His natural law.

God is not ruling the evil doers, that rule themselves by their own will alone. However, God does have preeminence over all living things, and so chooses to have have daily mercy on the natural bodies of transgressors, not to die in sin.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If we are transgressing the Lord, tomorrow is not promised; Therefore we ought repent today, while today is. For all natural bodies are just smoke, and the trasngressor can die in any moment of time.

2 Cor 6:2
(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Heb 4:7
Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

Heb 3:13
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Jas 4:14
Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.


Well then, there we have it. Never met a predeterminator, that was not one of the pre-elect before born. Nor one that didn't condemn other non-pre-chosen people, while doing the same unrighteousness as they.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Mar 2:17
When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mat 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

All are called unto repentance, the few that repent are chosen.






Exo 32:33
And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Rev{3:4}
Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev 22:18
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

The names of all men and women created in the image of God, are written in the Book of Life. All that sin and transgress against God are blotted out of the book of life.

Rev 21:25
And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

All that repent from our transgressions are born again and written in the Lamb's Book of Life. All that die in our unrepented sin and transgression, remain blotted out of the Book of life forever.

Rev{20:12}
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works….And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

None of those verses say that a born again believer can lose their salvation. I'm sure you've heard that Gods elect commit murder, adultery and every other kind of sin/transgression, but the Lord Jesus has already atoned for all the sins of Gods elect.

You have failed to find a singe verse to support your view that salvation can be lost.

 

[Journey_man]

Believers not doing unrighteousness, are dead to sin. Doers of unrighteousness are dead to God.

Trasngressors 'considering themselves' dead to sin and alive to God, are not dead to sin and alive to God in deed and in truth, but only in mouth and tongue.

1Jo 3:18
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.


No man was crucified with Jesus on His cross.

We all that have sinned, were counted as the unbelieving crucifies of Jesus on the cross, not just the wicked hands that slew Him.

Psa 51:4
Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

Act 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

If we are transgressing against Him today, we are crufying Him to ourselves afresh.

Only if we repent and mortify our own wicked deeds, do we take up our own cross and crucify ourselves for Christ's sake.

Mar 8:34
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


If we are sinning against Christ, we are servant to sin of the devil.

Jhn 8:34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever is committing sin is the servant of sin.

1Jo 3:8
He that is committing sin is of the devil; for the devil is sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

2 Peter{2:19}
While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.



Wicked action only flows from wicked hearts.

1Sa 24:13
As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked:

Mat 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

We are what we do. We are not what we identify ourselves apart from our works. We are wholly new creatures in Christ Jesus, not new identities.

Not identities are not new creatures, but old creatures with new identity. Identity Christianity is for transgressors identifying themselves with Christ in name, but not walking with Jesus in deed and in truth.






Rom 16:18
By good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
A sinner can take on the identity of the righteous, but we can only be righteous by doing righteousness:
1 John{3:7}
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that is doing righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

If you weren't crucified with Christ, then you haven't died to sin so you would remain dead in your sin and you wouldn't have been resurrected with Him so you wouldn't be born again.

 

[Journey_man]

Thansk for repeating me. Repetition is high praise.



If we have not the power to overcome all temptation, we have not Jesus Christ.

Rev 3:21
To him that is overcoming will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.


Jesus does not overcome temptation for us, but with us.

Rom 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Repenting and doing good is not by feeling, but by faith with Jesus Christ.




If we are falling to temptation, we have not the gift of Jesus' faith.

1Jo 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.


If we have the gift of Jesus' faith, we cannot do evil.

1Jo 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
If we are doing evil, then what we have is not good, and we must repent and lose it for Jesus' sake.

Mar 8:34
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

If we are in Christ Jesus, we are predestinated to keep His commandments, and do no evil.

Rom 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

If we are transgressing against God's commandments, we are not conformed to the Son's image, and are not known by God.

Mat 7:22
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

If we are doing a work of iniquity, our profession of faith ends in the grave.

So believe that God didn't save the murdering adulterer King David. You believe that God first saved him, then He condemned him after he sinned. Your theology is very strange, it makes no sense at all.

You believe that the Apostle Paul was another one who made a false profession of faith so he wasn't saved either. Paul admitted that he tried to resist temptation but it overwhelmed him and made him sin against his will.

Your theology is self defeating, and your version of the gospel makes salvation dependant on the dead sinner rather than the Lord Jesus.

 

[ATG]

Your reply is full of foundational errors,

The Scriptures I teach are full of rebuke for any foundation of justification by faith while doing evil.

you mention "good people" but the Lord Jesus said there's no such thing and only God is good.

We preach people of God doing good, and not evil. We don't preach 'good people'.

3 John{1:11}
Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that is doing good is of God: but he that is doing evil hath not seen God.

We should judge righteoiusly by Scripture, and not judge others by our own continued unrighteousness.

2Co 10:12
They that judge themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

There is not going to be 2 judgement days, separated by a 1000 years. The judgement takes place as soon as the Lord returns. He will separate the sheep from then goats,

From His judgment seat in the air, the righteous Lord first judges us that name His name, between the wheat doing good, and the tares doing unrighteousness.

From His kingdom seat in Jerusalem, He then judges the nations between the sheep, that enter into His Millenial kingdom, and the goats, that are destroyed from the earth.

And finally, from His great white throne in heaven, He judges all the rest of the dead, that had no part in His blessed first resurrection of His righteous wheat.

none of His sheep will be punished for their sin, because He already paid for them in full.

No transgressor on earth is acquitted from transgressions, because Jesus was killed by transgressors on a cross.

If by Jesus' death only transgressors are acquitted, then all transgressors of the world are acquitted.

Christians declaring they will go to heaven, while doing the same as others that will go to hell, are the reason why unbelievers of the world are given cause to mock the gospel of grace and faith.

Rom 2:23
Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God. For the name of God is blasphemed among the nations through you, as it is written.

The Jews trust in having the words of the law alone to justify themselves, while transgressing the words of the law; And the Christians trust in having the words of faith alone to justify themselves, while disobeying the word of faith.

Romans{1:4}
By Jesus Christ whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

Only believers obeying the faith of God are justified with God.

But every one of the goats will be cast into the lake of fire where they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

If we are the transgressors, we are the goats that trasngress God's commandments. We are what we do, not only what we believe we are.

Mat 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Transgressions are only committed by goats of the world, not by sheep of God.

1Sa 24:13
As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked:

1Jo 3:8
He that is committing sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

My works will be burned up and I will suffer loss, but I will be saved. This burning is a refining process just as gold is refined by fire.

If our works are unrighteous in the end, then we burn with them.

Heb 10:29
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Likewise, if our ministry leads the believers into transgression, then as destructive ministers we likewise perish with them that trangress by our false word of faith.

2Pe 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 Peter{2:19}
While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

If we minister continued sinning with continued justification by our faith only, then we minister death and destruction to the decieved hearers; who therefore continue transgressing God's words, while counting themselves justified by our unrighteous faith alone.

Isa 30:9
That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD: Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits: Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.

Isaiah{28:14}
Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

 

[ATG]

I do not.

I never said drinking alcohol was a sin.

All I say is that given that one in ten in society will struggle with alcohol consumption, it is best to set a good example.

Your judgment is bad, because you don't judge by the righteousness of Scriptures, but only by your own personal righteousness.

The righteousness of Scripture is that a bad example is sin.

1 Tim{4:11}
These things command and teach. Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

If drinking alcohol is a bad example of the believer, it is sin. And Jesus sinned as a bad example to His new disciple Matthew, by drinking wine with his guests.

Luk 7:33
For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

This is the snare when believers begin to preach their own righteousness to others, and judge others as bad for not doing the same: You will find yourself needing to judge Jesus also as a bad example, in order to justify your own righteousness.

 

[ATG]

Me - You need to consider whether a command of Jesus was temporary/transitional, and whether what the Lord taught via Paul's epistles indicated WB was comparable to PC and thus optional for those who are SB/SC.

Jesus' commission to preach the gospel and baptize believers in His name, is the church's commission to preach and baptize believers in His name.

Paul writes that circumcision is optional, not water baptism.

3. You - Water baptism is simply unique in the new covenant of Jesus Christ: It's necessary by commission, but not necessary for remission.
Me - WB is unique because it is transitional and not necessary, although appropriate and a good tradition followed by us Baptists.

The one-time preaching of water baptism for remission of sins, was only preached that one time.

The commission to preach and baptise in the name of Jesus, continues through the NT Scriptures:

1Pe 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Though water baptism is now a figure of salvation, it remains a necessary figure commissioned by our Lord to His church.

Any 'transition' of water baptism is only from necessary for remission, to necessary for a figure. There is no transition of necessary water baptism to unnecessary water baptism.

Something symbolic is therefore not any more necessary than any other good/godly work that follows saving faith (Eph. 2:8-10).

Not more necessary, but necessary:

Tit 3:14
And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.
Water baptism is simply unique as a commissioned work of preaching the gospel.

4. You - There is one baptism of the Spirit into the body of Christ by faith. There's also the water baptism into the fellowship of the brethren by commission of Jesus Christ.
Me - one plus also = two. You do not go far enough to minus/subtract water baptism as merely an optional rite/work.

I don't join you in your optinoal baptism theology. I reject it as an unnecessary throwing out the good baby with bad bathwater.

6. You - post #747 introduces laying on hands.
Me - Yes, that is another optional/symbolic practice.

I.e. the principles of the doctrine of Christ are preached and practiced in Acts.

7. You - We should never conflate doing works without faith, with doing any works at all. Keeping God's commandments is good in this life, but only with faith of Jesus Christ do we have promise in the life to come... Our righteousness with Jesus Christ exceeds that of the Pharisees, because we keep the commandments with Jesus Christ. The Pharisees did not err by keeping the law, which God commands His people to keep.
Me - The Pharisees/Judaizers erred by believing they were saved via keeping the law, but the Gospel reveals that salvation is via cooperating with God's indwelling loving Holy Spirit of Christ (Rom. 5:5, 8:9).

And that necessary cooperation is keeping His commandments, not transgressing them.

If we are transgressing God's commandments with the world, then we have no cooperation nor friendship with God, but make ourselves His enemies of the world.

Jas 4:4
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

And as a commnded work, water baptism is uniquely commissioned as the first test of our newborn faith in Jesus Christ, whether we will obey His words, or not.

Luk 6:46
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Tit 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient,

 

[GWH]

Jesus' commission to preach the gospel and baptize believers in His name, is the church's commission to preach and baptize believers in His name.

Paul writes that circumcision is optional, not water baptism.

The one-time preaching of water baptism for remission of sins, was only preached that one time.

The commission to preach and baptise in the name of Jesus, continues through the NT Scriptures:

1Pe 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Though water baptism is now a figure of salvation, it remains a necessary figure commissioned by our Lord to His church.

Any 'transition' of water baptism is only from necessary for remission, to necessary for a figure. There is no transition of necessary water baptism to unnecessary water baptism.

Not more necessary, but necessary:

Tit 3:14
And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.
Water baptism is simply unique as a commissioned work of preaching the gospel.

I don't join you in your optinoal baptism theology. I reject it as an unnecessary throwing out the good baby with bad bathwater.

I.e. the principles of the doctrine of Christ are preached and practiced in Acts.

And that necessary cooperation is keeping His commandments, not transgressing them.

If we are transgressing God's commandments with the world, then we have no cooperation nor friendship with God, but make ourselves His enemies of the world.

Jas 4:4
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

And as a commnded work, water baptism is uniquely commissioned as the first test of our newborn faith in Jesus Christ, whether we will obey His words, or not.

Luk 6:46
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Tit 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient,

Yes, water baptism for remission of sins was only preached in Acts, but the baptism in the name of Jesus that continues must refer to SB rather than to WB, because Eph. 4:4-6 teaches that there is only one baptism. Right?

Paul writes that the circumcision that matters/is salvific is SC, not PC, and thus it is logical that he implies the same thing about WB when he writes that there is only one baptism. Right?

A figure is equivalent to a shadow, which Paul writes is not the reality per Col. 2:16-17, and nowhere does he command WB or say that it is necessary. Right?

 

[ATG]

Your interpretation of these Bible verses is inconsistent, contradictory and incoherent. On the one hand you claim there is no forgiveness for believers who commit sin, then you claim that we can be forgiven if we repent and confess our sin.

Your mistatements about my teaching is consistent and contradictory to what I teach.

There is no forgiveness for any person, that is committing sin. There is only forgiveness for believers that repent and confess the committed sin.

1Jo 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Believers that have committed sin, are washed clean by confession with godly sorrow. Any one committing sin, is unclean by their own lust for sin.

Jas 1:14
Every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

No person is justified with God, while doing evil. So also our faith does not justify us, if we are transgressing God's commandment.

By trasngression our faith is made no better than devils, who also believe and confess Jesus is the Christ.

Jas 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Mar 1:24
Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.

Tit 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient,

Please chose a position, can a believer be forgiven for sin or not. You can't have it both ways, it's has to be a yes or no answer.

When you state my teaching of Scripture accurately, then you get a yes or no answer. But when you mistate my teaching of the Scripture, the same as you mistate Scripture itself, then all you get is a correction.

The reason you mistate both Scripture and teaching of Scripture, is because you never quote either, but only say it's wrong, because it rebukes your own personal religion of sinning with justification.

 

[ATG]

None of those verses say that a born again believer can lose their salvation. I'm sure you've heard that Gods elect commit murder, adultery and every other kind of sin/transgression, but the Lord Jesus has already atoned for all the sins of Gods elect.

1Jo 3:15
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

If we find ourselves justifying murderers, adulterers, and all manner of evil doers, in order to justify our gospel of faith, set apart from our works; Then we surely know that we are fulfilliung the prophesied warning to all the churches of God:

2Pe 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2Pe 3:3
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

2Th 2:2
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

That minister of sin is revealed in the end...

 

[ATG]

If you weren't crucified with Christ, then you haven't died to sin so you would remain dead in your sin and you wouldn't have been resurrected with Him so you wouldn't be born again.

Whoa. You have entered into a world of deep mysticism.

Rev 17:5
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Now we have a mystery of us today, as being crucified with Jesus on His cross near two thousand years ago, and also resurrected with Him three days after...

2Ti 2:17
And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
2Th 2:10
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Rev 2:24
But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, that they speak;
It's no wonder why some never quote Scripture, and instead teach their own mysterious illusion.