Finding unity: obedience

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Believer08

Active member
Jan 27, 2025
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#1
I don’t think anyone would disagree with the importance of obedience. We all agree it is important. The issue that we seem to be having is why we need to obey. One group believes in obeying to be saved. The other group seems to believe obedience is because they are saved. I stated in a previously the following: “There is a sense in which obedience is proof of being saved. You shall know them by their fruits (Mt. 7:16, 20; 12:33), we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works (Eph. 2:10). Jesus's sacrifice is the remedy, the gospel is the remedy, and we accept the remedy by obedience. Like a doctor provides a remedy for a seriously deadly disease or poison - we have to follow the doctor's instructions and take the remedy as he prescribes if we want to be healed.”

For any on this forum who I have accused or misrepresented in what they believe, I humbly ask for your forgiveness. I think it’s important we try to reach an agreement and let go of any misrepresentations or accusations. We will never come to unity if we do not. Agreed?
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
997
138
43
#3
I don’t think anyone would disagree with the importance of obedience. We all agree it is important. The issue that we seem to be having is why we need to obey. One group believes in obeying to be saved. The other group seems to believe obedience is because they are saved. I stated in a previously the following: “There is a sense in which obedience is proof of being saved. You shall know them by their fruits (Mt. 7:16, 20; 12:33), we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works (Eph. 2:10). Jesus's sacrifice is the remedy, the gospel is the remedy, and we accept the remedy by obedience. Like a doctor provides a remedy for a seriously deadly disease or poison - we have to follow the doctor's instructions and take the remedy as he prescribes if we want to be healed.”

For any on this forum who I have accused or misrepresented in what they believe, I humbly ask for your forgiveness. I think it’s important we try to reach an agreement and let go of any misrepresentations or accusations. We will never come to unity if we do not. Agreed?
In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is part of His gift of salvation. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it, so obedience is not proof of being saved, but rather it is what being saved means.
 

Believer08

Active member
Jan 27, 2025
621
173
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#4
In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is part of His gift of salvation. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it, so obedience is not proof of being saved, but rather it is what being saved means.
Ok, we both agree we cannot earn salvation through works (Eph. 2:9; Titus 3:5). We both agree eternal life/eternal salvation is a gift (Rom. 6:23). So on that, we agree. I also agree that it is God’s grace that instructs us to live righteously, deny ungodliness, etc etc. I also agree that we are to be a doer of the word and not a hearer only (Jms. 1:22). I agree Jesus saves us from sin (Acts 4:10-12) and agree sin is a transgression of God’s law. You would agree that to be saved one has to have belief or faith (Jn. 3:16; Eph. 2:8, etc etc). Since one must have faith to be saved, I would think you would believe having faith in Jesus would be being obedient to Jesus. We would both agree having faith isn’t disobeying Jesus, so having faith would have to be obeying Jesus. So, when Jesus taught to have faith to be saved, that would be obeying Him, His authority, to be saved, would it not?
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
997
138
43
#5
Ok, we both agree we cannot earn salvation through works (Eph. 2:9; Titus 3:5). We both agree eternal life/eternal salvation is a gift (Rom. 6:23). So on that, we agree. I also agree that it is God’s grace that instructs us to live righteously, deny ungodliness, etc etc. I also agree that we are to be a doer of the word and not a hearer only (Jms. 1:22). I agree Jesus saves us from sin (Acts 4:10-12) and agree sin is a transgression of God’s law. You would agree that to be saved one has to have belief or faith (Jn. 3:16; Eph. 2:8, etc etc). Since one must have faith to be saved, I would think you would believe having faith in Jesus would be being obedient to Jesus. We would both agree having faith isn’t disobeying Jesus, so having faith would have to be obeying Jesus. So, when Jesus taught to have faith to be saved, that would be obeying Him, His authority, to be saved, would it not?
We can do works that express our faith, such as with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith by his works, so everyone who is a doer of the same works as James has faith in Jesus and it is by that faith alone that we are being saved.
 

HealthAndHappiness

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2022
11,466
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Almost Heaven West Virginia
#6
Ok, we both agree we cannot earn salvation through works (Eph. 2:9; Titus 3:5). We both agree eternal life/eternal salvation is a gift (Rom. 6:23). So on that, we agree. I also agree that it is God’s grace that instructs us to live righteously, deny ungodliness, etc etc. I also agree that we are to be a doer of the word and not a hearer only (Jms. 1:22). I agree Jesus saves us from sin (Acts 4:10-12) and agree sin is a transgression of God’s law. You would agree that to be saved one has to have belief or faith (Jn. 3:16; Eph. 2:8, etc etc). Since one must have faith to be saved, I would think you would believe having faith in Jesus would be being obedient to Jesus. We would both agree having faith isn’t disobeying Jesus, so having faith would have to be obeying Jesus. So, when Jesus taught to have faith to be saved, that would be obeying Him, His authority, to be saved, would it not?
I follow you here.
Salvation needs to be clearly understood and the believer's walk with the Lord is a separate matter.
Obedience for salvation is purely grace through faith.
After salvation, there are a lot of works we should do. That's what Jude 2 is about. People I got to know as brothers and sisters have shown that to me and others. It's a beautiful person who loves the Lord and their brother to help in time of need.

The worldly pastors and priests mix all of that up and muddy the waters.
They teach obedience to certain works in the bible results in possible salvation.
 

Believer08

Active member
Jan 27, 2025
621
173
43
#7
I follow you here.
Salvation needs to be clearly understood and the believer's walk with the Lord is a separate matter.
Obedience for salvation is purely grace through faith.
After salvation, there are a lot of works we should do. That's what Jude 2 is about. People I got to know as brothers and sisters have shown that to me and others. It's a beautiful person who loves the Lord and their brother to help in time of need.

The worldly pastors and priests mix all of that up and muddy the waters.
They teach obedience to certain works in the bible results in possible salvation.
I agree that salvation is by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8). I have never disputed that and I have never argued against that on here. I think we would both agree on that. I also think we would both agree that it is not a dead faith that is saved by grace.
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
997
138
43
#8
I follow you here.
Salvation needs to be clearly understood and the believer's walk with the Lord is a separate matter.
Obedience for salvation is purely grace through faith.
After salvation, there are a lot of works we should do. That's what Jude 2 is about. People I got to know as brothers and sisters have shown that to me and others. It's a beautiful person who loves the Lord and their brother to help in time of need.

The worldly pastors and priests mix all of that up and muddy the waters.
They teach obedience to certain works in the bible results in possible salvation.
In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is part of His gift of salvation.

I very rarely have seen someone take the position that we need do works in order to earn our salvation as the result, but I've commonly seen people make that assumption. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, and in Hebrew 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey Him, so verses likes these clearly show that our salvation requires us to be workers of lawfulness, however, if I take that position, then I find no shortage of people who assume that I am in support of earning our salvation even though I didn't say anything about earning it. God did not give His law as a means of earning our salvation even though perfect obedience, so that has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of why our salvation requires us to be a doer of it.
 

Believer08

Active member
Jan 27, 2025
621
173
43
#9
I find no shortage of people who assume that I am in support of earning our salvation even though I didn't say anything about earning it
That has been my case as well. And that is one of the reasons I made the thread…to find understanding and try to come to an agreement.
 

HealthAndHappiness

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2022
11,466
4,977
113
Almost Heaven West Virginia
#10
I agree that salvation is by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8). I have never disputed that and I have never argued against that on here. I think we would both agree on that. I also think we would both agree that it is not a dead faith that is saved by grace.
A dead faith, as I recall, is still faith; it's just dead.
There were couple christians who were going to heaven at death, because they received the free gift of eternal life through faith in Christ.
They came across a friend who had a serious need.
The one said I can help you out.
The other said, see you guys later. I'm busy and have important things to tend to. I hope it all works out for you.

Which one had dead faith?
 

Believer08

Active member
Jan 27, 2025
621
173
43
#11
A dead faith, as I recall, is still faith; it's just dead.
There were couple christians who were going to heaven at death, because they received the free gift of eternal life through faith in Christ.
They came across a friend who had a serious need.
The one said I can help you out.
The other said, see you guys later. I'm busy and have important things to tend to. I hope it all works out for you.

Which one had dead faith?
It’s faith, sure..but it’s a type of faith that doesn’t obey. It doesn’t save. The kind of faith that is saved by God’s grace is an obedient faith that is alive in humble submission in obedience to the authority of Christ. When I say dead faith, I’m referring to a faith that is dead..that’s useless..it has a kind of faith that has no obedience whatsoever.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
4,607
1,028
113
USA-TX
#12
I follow you here.
Salvation needs to be clearly understood and the believer's walk with the Lord is a separate matter.
Obedience for salvation is purely grace through faith.
After salvation, there are a lot of works we should do. That's what Jude 2 is about. People I got to know as brothers and sisters have shown that to me and others. It's a beautiful person who loves the Lord and their brother to help in time of need.

The worldly pastors and priests mix all of that up and muddy the waters.
They teach obedience to certain works in the bible results in possible salvation.
Re "Salvation needs to be clearly understood and the believer's walk with the Lord is a separate matter.":

I used to make the mistake of separating saving faith from walking faith, but recently I received the following insight:

The kerygma proclaims GRFS, which calls for repentance and acceptance of Jesus as Lord, which is an all or nothing decision that occurs at one moment in time.
The didache teaches God’s will regarding how saints or those who have been saved should live in order to be a good witness for Christ, which involves learning more of God’s Word throughout one’s lifetime. A passage teaching this truth is Colossians 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].”

Recent insight: There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/during sanctification (EPH 2:8-10, 2CR 5:7), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
4,607
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113
USA-TX
#13
That has been my case as well. And that is one of the reasons I made the thread…to find understanding and try to come to an agreement.
A goal all Christians should share and a reason I began the Hermeneutics thread.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
4,607
1,028
113
USA-TX
#14
A dead faith, as I recall, is still faith; it's just dead.
There were couple christians who were going to heaven at death, because they received the free gift of eternal life through faith in Christ.
They came across a friend who had a serious need.
The one said I can help you out.
The other said, see you guys later. I'm busy and have important things to tend to. I hope it all works out for you.

Which one had dead faith?
Yes, and we see illustrated that faith and will are essentially synonymous and can be oriented toward God or the devil/I-dolatry.
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
997
138
43
#15
A dead faith, as I recall, is still faith; it's just dead.
There were couple christians who were going to heaven at death, because they received the free gift of eternal life through faith in Christ.
They came across a friend who had a serious need.
The one said I can help you out.
The other said, see you guys later. I'm busy and have important things to tend to. I hope it all works out for you.

Which one had dead faith?
If someone says that they believe something, but they choose to act in a way that is not in accordance with what they say that they believe, then that shows that their words were empty. If someone said that they believed in vegetarianism, but they chose to eat meat at every meal, then would you still consider them to be a vegetarian in some sense?

The way to believe in God is by directing our lives towards being in His likeness by being a doer of His character traits. For example, by being a doer of good works in obedience to God's law, we are testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying about God's goodness we are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words we are believing in Him. Likewise, the way to believe that God is a doer of justice is by being in His likeness by being a doer of justice in obedience to Him, the way to believe that God is holy is by being a doer of His instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, and so forth. This is exactly the same as the way to believe in the Son, who is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God's law, which is also why there are many verses that connect our belief in God with our obedience to Him, such as in Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments, and in James 2:18, he would show his faith by his works.

In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus said that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments, so faith without works is like wanting the box that the gift of eternal life came in without wanting its contents. In Romans 6:19-23, we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so again being a doer of God's law is the contents of His gift of eternal life.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
8,216
3,215
113
#16
I follow you here.
Salvation needs to be clearly understood and the believer's walk with the Lord is a separate matter.
Obedience for salvation is purely grace through faith.
After salvation, there are a lot of works we should do. That's what Jude 2 is about. People I got to know as brothers and sisters have shown that to me and others. It's a beautiful person who loves the Lord and their brother to help in time of need.

The worldly pastors and priests mix all of that up and muddy the waters.
They teach obedience to certain works in the bible results in possible salvation.

Worldly view, good point, I had not thought of it that way.

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
Matthew 7 13-14

The very nature of salvation is a narrow gate most people cannot come to terms with grace.
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
997
138
43
#17
Worldly view, good point, I had not thought of it that way.

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
Matthew 7 13-14

The very nature of salvation is a narrow gate most people cannot come to terms with grace.
God’s way is the narrow way that leads to life and God has graciously taught how to walk in His way through His law, but many people don’t want to walk in it (Jeremiah 6:16-19). The people in the Bible wanted God to be gracious to them by teaching them to obey His law, but many people today want God to be gracious to them instead of teaching them to obey it, so they can’t come to terms with grace.
 

HealthAndHappiness

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2022
11,466
4,977
113
Almost Heaven West Virginia
#18
Worldly view, good point, I had not thought of it that way.

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
Matthew 7 13-14

The very nature of salvation is a narrow gate most people cannot come to terms with grace.

That's right. When the churches I attended as a boy and teen taught salvation, there was no clarity. It was always obedience/works that God intended His children to obey and a description of His pure holiness MIXED with the Sacrifice of our Savior. They misapplied the majority of the Bible, which happens to be written to saved believers in the family of God, and make it all a variety of commands to be saved. The world/ worldly preachers cannot and will not understand the essential distinctions.

For instance, mothers bring life into the world, wonderful little babies. The babies don't go through labor to be born of the flesh when the water breaks, mothers do.
As the child grows and matures, there are family expectations and rules. Obedience to the rules doesn't assist mothers in the birth of the child. If the worldly pastors were consistent, they would take birth as a process to earn as they mow the lawn, wash dishes, get dressed, not poop their pants, and show up for school on time. The works salvationists turn John chapter 3 on it's head. They confuse what Jesus said, Ye must be born again. Jesus made it so simple, but the worldly pastors do as those teaching Pharisees and Sadducees did in that day.
 

Believer08

Active member
Jan 27, 2025
621
173
43
#19
We might differ on what needs to be obeyed and the reasons, but not the importance. In the end, we all believe obedience is essential. The issue becomes when we end up on not agreeing on what we mean by obedience. I’m not advocating obedience is the means and the only means of salvation without the need of grace, mercy, faith and love. When lost sinners obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered to them (Rom. 6:17)..they expressed their faith and desire to be saved by God’s grace..humbly throwing themselves on His mercy. The doctrine that was delivered unto them was not something they earned or could boast about. It is of God. The gospel is of God (2 Thess. 2:14; Rom. 1:16). Thus, any form of obedience from a heart of faith that is motivated, driven, and fueled by the gospel call of salvation (Acts 2:39) cannot possibly be one as earning or boasting..and cannot be considered relying or trusting in self. The only boasting one can do is give glory to God (1 Cor. 1:13; 2 Cor. 10:17) for what all He did in providing the means of salvation. Not self. The only boasting/rejoicing one can do once they get saved is with the testimony of their conscience with godly sincerity…by the grace of God (2 Cor. 1:12). I’m not advocating a kind or type of obedience that is boastful in ourselves (Titus 3:5) or our own righteousness (Rom. 10:3), or one that is legalistic or Phariseeish. I’m not advocating a follow the rule obedience with zero faith, zero love and not depending on grace and mercy when we fall short. I’m advocating one that is of faith in submitting to the righteousness of God (Rom. 10:3) through/by the power/authority of Christ Jesus our Lord (Mt. 28:18), who is the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him (Heb. 5:9).

— Believer08

CC: @GWH, @Lamar, @TrustandObey, @2ndTimeIsTheCharm
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
4,607
1,028
113
USA-TX
#20
If someone says that they believe something, but they choose to act in a way that is not in accordance with what they say that they believe, then that shows that their words were empty. If someone said that they believed in vegetarianism, but they chose to eat meat at every meal, then would you still consider them to be a vegetarian in some sense?

The way to believe in God is by directing our lives towards being in His likeness by being a doer of His character traits. For example, by being a doer of good works in obedience to God's law, we are testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying about God's goodness we are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words we are believing in Him. Likewise, the way to believe that God is a doer of justice is by being in His likeness by being a doer of justice in obedience to Him, the way to believe that God is holy is by being a doer of His instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, and so forth. This is exactly the same as the way to believe in the Son, who is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God's law, which is also why there are many verses that connect our belief in God with our obedience to Him, such as in Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments, and in James 2:18, he would show his faith by his works.

In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus said that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments, so faith without works is like wanting the box that the gift of eternal life came in without wanting its contents. In Romans 6:19-23, we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so again being a doer of God's law is the contents of His gift of eternal life.
Re "our good works bring glory to Him": Yes, because they are works God prepared for believers to do by way of obedience or cooperation." (EPH 2:10)