Finneyists among us

[Skinski7]

well let's see...here are excerpts from a sermon:

Acts 2
36“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.


were these people saved, skinski?

the very same day they were called out for taking part in the murder of Jesus?

were they pristine in heart (sinless - we've been here before skinski) just before they took part in Christ's murder, but had a stumble?

then the very same day they heard the sermon (somewhere between hearing the message and being baptized, they purified their hearts again)...then God said okay not guilty?

is that what happened? anything like that?

or were they not actually saved.
are you saved?

Salvation implies being saved from something. What were they saved from Zone?

Jesus came to save us from our sins (Mat 1:21), to redeem us from all iniquity and make us pure (Tit 2:14).

Those people cried out, "what shall we do." Peter responded to their question with repent and be baptised. Thus those who repented and thus died with Christ in the Baptism of repentance and were raised up to newness of life were indeed saved that day. No longer were they the servants of sin for they had been raised from darkness to life to be servants of righteousness.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Peter delivered a doctrine to them which they obeyed from the heart that doctrine and continued steadfastly in this doctrine.

Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Being yielded to God from their hearts they would have been pure in heart.

Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

As new born babes in Christ they would have loved one another with pure hearts. They would have been walking according to the Spirit by which they had cleansed their souls.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

They were newborn babes if indeed they had tasted that the Lord is gracious.

1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
1Pe 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

They were not justified or forgiven in their sins. They had to repent first as Peter called them to. The dynamic of repentance and faith and therefore approaching God seeking to be cleansed with a true heart produces heart purity in an individual. Hence is it the pure in heart who will see God, those who experience this cleansing by entering into the New Covenant (where we are set apart unto God) via the blood of Jesus Christ.

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Is that what your church teaches Zone? Not at all.

Your church denomination may preach a lot of godly sounding rhetoric but in reality it is all dressing for a very powerful delusion. By disconnecting actual "manifest" purity of heart resultant of a genuine salvation experience and replacing it with a "forensic" cloak you denomination in effect shuts the door to a genuine reconciliation taking place. Thus the repentance your denomination preaches is a "confession of sinfulness" and the associated "inability" as opposed to repentance being a "full admission of culpability" and the associated "forsaking of rebellion." In other words the repentance of your denomination eliminates truly coming clean before God wherein one confesses their own responsibility for their rebellion and also makes the conscious choice to turn back to God and submit. That doesn't happen and due to this not happening the result is a disaster for the soul.

Your very own denomination utterly denies heart purity in salvation and instead teaches "sin you will and sin you must" thus implying that Satan's influence is more powerful than the grace of God upon the hearts of men. I'll unpack some of your theology for you, take from it what you will.

6] And by Dr. Luther it is called a nature‐sin or person‐sin, thereby to indicate that,
even though a person would think, speak, or do nothing evil (which, however, is impossible
in this life, since the fall of our first parents), his nature and person are nevertheless sinful,
that is, thoroughly and utterly infected and corrupted before God by original sin, as by a
spiritual leprosy; and on account of this corruption and because of the fall of the first man
the nature or person is accused or condemned by God's Law, so that we are by nature the
children of wrath, death, and damnation, unless we are delivered there from by the merit of
Christ.

The Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord
http://www.lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=953

The "merit of Christ" is this forensic judicial transaction whereby the "righteousness of Christ" cloaks the ongoing "corruption of sin." Thus heart purity in salvation is replaced with a CLOAK instead. In Acts it says that "faith purifies the heart" yet the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod teaches in essence that it is "by faith that the practical filthiness of the heart is cloaked by the merit of Jesus Christ."

I wonder how many can see how deceptive this actually is? Not many that is for sure and that is why it pretty much goes unrefuted in the world today.

Under this delusion the blame for sinning is shifted to a "birth nature" whereby it is taught that all are "born already condemned." This "sinful birth nature" is so corrupt that it cannot be overcome in this life and therefore deliverance involves the "merit of Christ" being credited to the believers account. Thus in effect God PRETENDS that believers have the track record of Jesus and it is on this basis that believers are justified.

See what Satan has done? Satan has replaced the TRUE TRANSFORMATION OF HEART which is the basis of justification with a FORENSIC CREDIT. Being "IN" Christ (ie. Rom 8:1) is NOT forensic or positional. Being "IN" Christ is actually a MANIFEST REALITY by which the love of God MANIFESTS THROUGH A BELIEVER.

Which is why Paul teaches...

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Hence...

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Hence...

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Hence...

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

By substituting the MANIFEST REALITY of...
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

...and substituting it with the PERCEPTION of a forensic credit due to "trusting in the finished work of the cross" Satan has been able to dress up his first lie of "YE CAN SIN AND NOT SURELY DIE" with Biblical rhetoric. It is the epitome of effectual deception.

Anyway I digress...

14] 5. Fifthly, this hereditary evil is so great and horrible that only for the sake of the Lord
Christ it can be covered and forgiven before God in the baptized and believing. Moreover,
human nature, which is perverted and corrupted thereby, must and can be healed only by
the regeneration and renewal of the Holy Ghost, which, however, is only begun in this life,
but will not be perfect until in the life to come.

The Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord
http://www.lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=953

Partial victory in this life? That is not what the Bible teaches...

1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1Jn 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
1Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
1Jn 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jn 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jn 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
1Jn 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
1Jn 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
1Jn 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Now love being perfected does not mean we won't make mistakes and err in judgment. What it does mean though is that our hearts are CLEAN and UNDEFILED. Thus when we fall short of the glory of God it is still an act we have done in love. Thus we are still to "grow in grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ." There is no "corrupted human nature" in a genuine born again Christian because they have been transformed from darkness to light. Light and darkness do not mix. Satan wants people to think they mix because then they will easily swallow the "ye can sin and not surely die" lie.

22] But when we teach that through the operation of the Holy Ghost we are born anew and
justified, the sense is not that after regeneration no unrighteousness clings any more to the
justified and regenerate in their being and life, but that Christ covers all their sins which
nevertheless in this life still inhere in nature with His complete obedience. In other words Jesus obeyed as the substitute for the sinner and His obedience is credited to their account and therefore cloaks the ongoing iniquity resultant of the "sin nature." But irrespective
of this they are declared and regarded godly and righteous by faith and for the sake of
Christ's obedience (which Christ rendered the Father for us from His birth to His most
ignominious death upon the cross), although, on account of their corrupt nature, they still
are and remain sinners to the grave [while they bear about this mortal body]. Nor, on the
other hand, is this the meaning, that without repentance, conversion, and renewal we might
or should yield to sins, and remain and continue in them.

The Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord
http://www.lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=953

23...But since the incipient renewal is imperfect in this life, and sin still dwells in the flesh, even in
the regenerate, the righteousness of faith before God consists in the gracious imputation of
the righteousness of Christ, without the addition of our works, so that our sins are forgiven
us and covered, and are not imputed, Rom. 4, 6ff

The Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord
http://www.lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=953

There is not a single scripture found in the entire Bible which teaches the above. Nowhere does the Bible state that the "righteousness of Christ" is imputed to the believer and thus their ongoing wretchedness is cloaked. Rom 4:5 plainly states that God reckons FAITH "as" righteousness. In other words God looks at the HEART as opposed to looking at EXTERNAL WORKS which can be done for all manner of reasons.

Psalm 32 which David is quoting here clearly connects this imputation of righteousness as being connected to a pure heart.

Psa 32:1 A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
Psa 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
...
Psa 32:11 Be glad in the LORD, and rejoice, ye righteous: and shout for joy, all ye that are upright in heart.

note: Check article 34 in the above references document and you can see how they snip the context of a "spirit with no guile" and being "upright in heart" completely from their presentation of Psalm 32 in order that they can imply that justification is purely a forensic judicial application. That is so very deceptive for them to do this, yet theologians do this all the time. Proof texting select verses and passages of the Bible completely out of their context is a very effective method of deceiving the simple.

It is clearly seen that this doctrine of Original Sin forces people to twist Scripture. The Missouri Synod utterly stands opposed to the truth due to their belief in Original Sin and thus they cannot teach MANIFEST heart purity. Instead they are forced to teach CLOAKED HEART PURITY. Instead of true righteousness flowing out of a pure heart via a faith that works by love (as the Bible teaches) they teach that righteousness is a forensic credit applied to your account which serves to cover the ongoing impure state wrought by Original Sin.

Even though they may preach that "good fruit" follows "faith" and that therefore "faith without works is dead" it is all moot because their foundation is erroneous. The faith and righteousness they teach is more akin to ascetism as opposed to the Biblical foundation of purity of heart. This is why so many so called "holiness" church denominations can deceive people because on the surface it can look very good.

2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Mat 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

30]... but upon Christ alone, and in Him upon His complete
obedience by which He has fulfilled the Law for us, which [obedience] is imputed to
believers for righteousness.

The Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord
http://www.lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=953

See, it is not "faith itself that is reckoned for righteousness" as the Bible teaches. No, rather it is the obedience of Jesus which is credited (by faith) to the believer as righteousness.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Who are we going to believe? The Bible or the theologians?




Thanks for reading and God bless.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

[joeyruready]

I am a little confused. I am also messy. I know its ok because God loves me just as I am. There is a lot written here about the theology of this man(whom I had never heard of before this post) that I agree is corrupt but I am confused about this statement:

"It is true, that the atonement, of itself, does not secure the salvation of any one"

I actually agree with this statement. It seems most here do not agree hence my confusion. We are saved by grace through faith, and this not from ourselves but it is a gift from God. I have a lot of questions. IF atonement alone is enough to secure salvation why then is repentance taught and why then would anyone not be saved?

I do not believe we are saved by works. Our salvation comes directly from God. Both grace and faith are gifts to us from God. God alone is my salvation. I suppose my question is doesn't a person have to accept a gift in order to receive it? I believe atonement can save everyone but it wont save those who reject it. I am not going to go through the rest of the theologies presented here because I reject most of them but can someone explain to me how this statement is wrong?

"It is true, that the atonement, of itself, does not secure the salvation of any one"

 

[Skinski7]

I am a little confused. I am also messy. I know its ok because God loves me just as I am. There is a lot written here about the theology of this man(whom I had never heard of before this post) that I agree is corrupt but I am confused about this statement:

"It is true, that the atonement, of itself, does not secure the salvation of any one"

I actually agree with this statement. It seems most here do not agree hence my confusion. We are saved by grace through faith, and this not from ourselves but it is a gift from God. I have a lot of questions. IF atonement alone is enough to secure salvation why then is repentance taught and why then would anyone not be saved?

I do not believe we are saved by works. Our salvation comes directly from God. Both grace and faith are gifts to us from God. God alone is my salvation. I suppose my question is doesn't a person have to accept a gift in order to receive it? I believe atonement can save everyone but it wont save those who reject it. I am not going to go through the rest of the theologies presented here because I reject most of them but can someone explain to me how this statement is wrong?

"It is true, that the atonement, of itself, does not secure the salvation of any one"

Joey,

The problem is a false view of the atonement. It is commonly taught that the death of Christ effected a judicial legal exchange between the sinners who are elect and Jesus Christ. Basically it is taught that God is just and that sin must be punished. Jesus bore the full wrath of God on the cross as a substitute for the elected sinner. Thus the wrath of God no longer abides on the elected sinner. The "sin transferred to Jesus" is one half of the transaction. The other half is the "righteousness of Christ" being credited to the elected sinners account. Thus God views the elected sinner as being "just" when they are not just.

This judicial exchange is viewed as the foundational premise upon which a sinner is justified in the sight of God and thus reconciled. Thus any "doing" on the part of the elected sinner (apart from simply believing) is seen as attempting to add to this "finished work."

The above framework forces people to reject the "conditions" set forth in the Bible as actually being mandatory conditions. Yet so as to not ignore these conditions they are taught as being "post salvation" or things that "will occur later."

To gain a bit better background on this I recommend reading up on the origin and development of the Penal Substitution view of the atonement.

Penal substitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.theopedia.com/Penal_substitutionary_atonement

What you will find was that this view was invented in the 1600's as an adaption of Anselm's Satisfaction view which was put forth in the 1100's.

Satisfaction theory of atonement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.theopedia.com/Satisfaction_theory_of_the_atonement




The truth in all of this though is that both the Satisfaction view and the Penal Substitution view are erroneous. They are very dangerous errors. The Penal Substitution view is almost universally taught today as it is very palatable for sinners (for it does not require a cessation of rebellion to God but rather a mere confession of sinfulness and trust in the judicial exchange). The Satisfaction view is most commonly taught in a slight adapted fashion as Moral Government and you'll find it taught by people who uphold Charles Finney. While this view does not err in the sense of a legal transaction taking place it does err by shifting the focus of the death of Christ and the blood as a means to purge sin instead to a means to satisfy justice.

Both views undermine the true meaning of the cross.

The Bible is clear when it says...

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Jesus gave Himself for us to redeem us from ALL iniquity and to make us pure.

Jesus condemned sin in the flesh that the righteousness of the law would be fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

You see the law could not reform the heart. Only the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ reforms the heart.

Hence we are to die WITH Christ and in so doing we die to sin. In dying to sin we are then raised up to newness of life as servants of righteousness to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Read the above passage from Romans again for Paul is depicting how exchange the service of one master for that of another. The death of Christ is a RANSOM FROM SIN. In other words His death was offered on our behalf in order to bring us out of our enslavement to sin. God cannot forgive those who do not forsake their sins and thus the service of sin has to stop. Jesus came to break this bondage so that we could be reconciled to God.

The blood of Jesus is what enjoins us into covenant with God, the NEW COVENANT.

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

When we enter into into the New Covenant with God we are cleansed and purged of all our past sins. Thus we can have a clean conscience before God.

The blood is all about a "purging of sin" and has NOTHING to do with effecting a forensic legal transaction. You won't anything whatsoever that pertains to the legal transaction taught in the Bible. The theologians will often present verses like this...

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

They will quote that as a proof text alluding the "made him sin" and the "righteousness of God in Him" is the legal exchange when the verse is not actually saying that (which is why it took 1600 years to invent this theory).

In context we read...

2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2Co 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Being made the righteousness of God IN Him is in the context of cooperating with God whereby we abide in the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ (Rom 8:2) and it is through this dynamic that we are inwardly transformed.

The blood of Jesus is to purge sin once and for all upon approaching God in the correct manner (repentance and faith). Thus we approach God via the blood with a TRUE HEART seeking to be cleansed. Once cleansed we go an "sin no more" because the root of iniquity within has been utterly purged. This is why to keep on sinning after such a thing is to treat the blood of Jesus with contempt. It is to mock God's grace as being ineffectual as being able to truly deliver us from sin or even worse to treat the grace of God as a license to keep on sinning with the hope of repenting later.

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.



So does the "atonement itself" secure the salvation of anyone. Of course not because the death of Christ does not effect some "package salvation" which is abstractly applied. Genuine salvation involves a total transformation within only wrought when we partake in the sufferings of Christ. Hence we die WITH Christ. His death was not a substitution but an example for us to follow.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.



Remember what Jesus said about DOING with will of God?

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I am a little confused. I am also messy. I know its ok because God loves me just as I am. There is a lot written here about the theology of this man(whom I had never heard of before this post) that I agree is corrupt but I am confused about this statement:

"It is true, that the atonement, of itself, does not secure the salvation of any one"

I actually agree with this statement. It seems most here do not agree hence my confusion. We are saved by grace through faith, and this not from ourselves but it is a gift from God. I have a lot of questions. IF atonement alone is enough to secure salvation why then is repentance taught and why then would anyone not be saved?

I do not believe we are saved by works. Our salvation comes directly from God. Both grace and faith are gifts to us from God. God alone is my salvation. I suppose my question is doesn't a person have to accept a gift in order to receive it? I believe atonement can save everyone but it wont save those who reject it. I am not going to go through the rest of the theologies presented here because I reject most of them but can someone explain to me how this statement is wrong?

"It is true, that the atonement, of itself, does not secure the salvation of any one"

Joey, Finney did not believe in substitutionary atonement, but that men are saved by their works. To him the death of Christ basically served the purpose of a symbolic gesture, or public example of judgment against sin that GOD used to save face.

Legally the sacrifice of Christ secures the salvation of anyone who trusts in it. But you are absolutely right; the gift has to be received and held onto via faith. But that is not what Finney was referring to.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Just as an fyi... I started this thread because I began to notice how many people who post here have Finneyist ideas in the beliefs. It will be my goal to document these things as I find the grace and wisdom to do so. Considering the fact that I'm not really interested in theology, I feel a bit uncomfortable right now as I am on the horizontal slope of the learning curve.

 

[Delija]

Whoever that man was and whatever he teach,reading of his science will be just losing of time.Nothing good man wouldn't learn.And better is to do nothing them reading things bad for our soul!

 

[zone]

Salvation implies being saved from something. What were they saved from Zone?

Jesus came to save us from our sins (Mat 1:21), to redeem us from all iniquity and make us pure (Tit 2:14).

so are you working to put to death the deeds of the flesh?
have you stopped sinning?

are you redeemed, by Christ?

are you pure?

please just answer those questions.
i've already read your other stuff.

 

[zone]

Just as an fyi... I started this thread because I began to notice how many people who post here have Finneyist ideas in the beliefs. It will be my goal to document these things as I find the grace and wisdom to do so. Considering the fact that I'm not really interested in theology, I feel a bit uncomfortable right now as I am on the horizontal slope of the learning curve.

finney was a rank heretik and so is anyone who attempts to derail substitionary atonement.

read through this again for edification, and to strengthen yourself against the wolf finney and his disciples.

Leviticus: Seedbed of NT Theology - Elin

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/57882-leviticus-seedbed-nt-theology.html

 

[zone]

Remember what Jesus said about DOING with will of God?

skinski:

anything you know you should be doing, and are not doing - is sin.

go, into all the world...give everything you have.

anything less is sin - since you claim to be without any, and are pure....you should have already laid down your life.

(in case you don't remember, i for know you are not pure in heart).

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

finney was a rank heretik and so is anyone who attempts to derail substitionary atonement.

read through this again for edification, and to strengthen yourself against the wolf finney and his disciples.

Leviticus: Seedbed of NT Theology - Elin

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/57882-leviticus-seedbed-nt-theology.html

I understand those things very well. What I have a difficult time with is all of the nuanced ideas and expressions that deviate from those things, of those whom the spirit witnesses to me are walking astray. For example, the law keepers here keep mentioning the moral law of GOD. There is no such thing. There is only spiritual law of GOD. Morals have to do with man's philosophies and agendas. So the difficult part for me is getting into their minds and tracing out the circuits to figure out exactly what's going on, and then be able to articulate it. That takes time, and I would honestly rather be doing other things.

 

[Skinski7]

so are you working to put to death the deeds of the flesh?
have you stopped sinning?

are you redeemed, by Christ?

are you pure?

please just answer those questions.
i've already read your other stuff.

No we don't "work" to put to death the deeds of the flesh. We simply abide in the Spirit of Christ and the putting to death the deeds of the flesh is a natural thing. Thus we don't lust, steal, cheat, murder etc. because greater is He that is in us than he that is in the world. It is quite simple, we abide in Jesus Christ. It is a manifest reality. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.

Jesus has indeed redeemed me from sin and purified my heart. I abide in Him and He in me.

How did the Pharisees respond to Jesus Christ? They attempted to find fault in order to discredit the message.

Don't you think it is quite shallow to go for the personal angle instead of engaging the specifics of theology? It seems those who uphold "sin you will and sin you must" cannot conceive of being victorious in this life over sin.

Jesus commanded the blind man to "go and sin no more." Jesus stated that the "pure in heart will see God." Yet to imply the possibility of both is considered quite an anomaly in this day and age.

 

[BananaPie]

HeRoseFrom, what do you know about Finney's involvement in the abolition movement on his day?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

HeRoseFrom, what do you know about Finney's involvement in the abolition movement on his day?

I've only read a cursory note about that in reference to the social nature of Finney's gospel.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Reading about the burned over district of central/western New York that Finney held revivals in. Fascinating connection between the completion of the Erie Canal and the subsequent in-rush of market capitalism and competing, non-traditional religious ideas into this area that was basically a frontier. From this same area that saw the birth of Finney's new measures came Joseph Smith (founder of Mormonism); Millerism, from which the 7th Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses (to some degree) evolved; the Fox sisters (table-rapping seances that inspired spiritualism); and numerous communistic-type, communal religious groups trying to turn back the rushing tide of market capitalism.

 

[Yahshua]

Joey,

The problem is a false view of the atonement. It is commonly taught that the death of Christ effected a judicial legal exchange between the sinners who are elect and Jesus Christ. Basically it is taught that God is just and that sin must be punished. Jesus bore the full wrath of God on the cross as a substitute for the elected sinner. Thus the wrath of God no longer abides on the elected sinner. The "sin transferred to Jesus" is one half of the transaction. The other half is the "righteousness of Christ" being credited to the elected sinners account. Thus God views the elected sinner as being "just" when they are not just.

This judicial exchange is viewed as the foundational premise upon which a sinner is justified in the sight of God and thus reconciled. Thus any "doing" on the part of the elected sinner (apart from simply believing) is seen as attempting to add to this "finished work."...

I appreciate the way you articulated your point on original sin and righteousness. The only difference of opinion I have is in the way your first paragraph frames the judicial exchange. Truly the exchange understood by most of us is a bit incorrect, but (correct me if I'm misrepresenting you) your post reads as if you're saying there isn't any exchange whatsoever that takes place. (I'll just give my view on this part as if this is your understanding, and then you can confirm, deny or rebut in a reply if you choose).

---

First let me establish my baseline believe that "the path" to the kingdom of God is one of:

1. Repentance = turning *away* from sin = Israel's Pillar of Cloud guiding them FROM Egypt (1 Cor 10:2) = John's Baptism
2. Faith of Christ = Birth from Above = Israel crossing Reed sea freeing them from Egypt = Baptism/Washing in Christ
3. Gift of the Holy Spirit = Power from on High = Israel receiving the Law of God at Mt. Sinai = Baptism of HS
4. Purification = Walking in faith = Israel 40 years in wilderness = Satan testing/Tempting
5. Kingdom Inheritance = Israel crossing the Jordan, entering The Promise & eating its fruits = Triumph over Sin/Satan

And I believe step 5 is specifically achievable BEFORE the new body (and I attempt to argue why in this post), and must be achieved BEFORE we receive that new body, otherwise that's equivalent to us eating from the tree of life still in a sinful state (Genesis 3:22). So from your post I think we're in agreement that this is the process...as testified by Israel, Christ's temptation, and the Apostles [Acts 2:38].

Now the issue concerning "the judicial exchange" would fall under step 2. And like I allude to in my opening paragraph, I agree it's a false assumption to believe that "there's nothing for the believer to do but believe in Christ". However, wouldn't you say there IS a legal exchange that takes place (effected by the Cross; called "The Pass Over"), otherwise how could the "birth from above" (i.e. birth of the spirit) take place which frees us from the bondage of sin and compels us to walk in true holiness/obedience?

Specifically, I agree that there isn't an exchange between "my sins" and the "righteousness of Christ" because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) and since I have sinned my life *must* end (Romans 6:23), while Christ's pure life could NEVER end unless he willingly gave it up (John 10:18)...so wouldn't you agree there's a true legal exchange of a life for a life?

This is exactly what the shadow pictures of Israel's animal sacrifices depict. To (then) pay for sins ["wages of sin is death"] the head of a household was required to bring a blemish-free lamb to the altar and lay his hands on it, thus exchanging his life for the lamb's life. The lamb's body was then violently killed...because it was the man's life in it that needed to died, while the lamb's life was now in the man's body. But of course, the blood of animals could never effect the true payment ["wage of sin"] required for us to make (Hebrews 10:4).

Truly, crediting Christ's righteousness to a sinner is *impossible* because sin is like a red stain that can't be removed (Isaiah 1:18), but Christ said in John 3:13-15:

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

So Christ, the only one to come from heaven (as all other men/women are first from the earth, not from heaven), associated himself with the serpent of Numbers 21 -

[Because of faithlessness, God cursed the people with poisonous serpents that bit them (a call back to that "old serpent" from the garden), and from the poison of the serpent's venom they died. But they repented to God and he told Moses to fashion the bronze serpent to look upon and they were healed of the poison in their veins.]​

- And as a serpent on that tree, Christ then said anyone who believes in him will not die but life forever.

So if Christ is the fulfillment of the process depicted in the animal sacrifices...and Christ associates himself with a serpent (when lifted up on the tree)...then indeed there is an exchange that's occurring, and specifically it's a Passover of lives: His life "as the seed of God from heaven" with my life "as the seed of the serpent from the earth", and everything that's attached to / deserving of both of those lives is legally exchanged as well...as it's the only way they could EVER be exchanged.

In other words, I died on that Cross in Christ's body, while Christ lives in and animates this body (Galatians 2:20)...but in order for this exchange/Passover to be effectively true (in faith) I MUST die *daily* and not sin; a feat that was always impossible to accomplish in *my* life; a feat that is perfectly possible to accomplish if Christ inhabits this body INSTEAD. Why? Because Christ perfectly resisted all sin once before in the SAME body of flesh he received from Adam (through his earthly mother Mary). There is no difference.

There is no difference between Christ inhabiting *this* body of flesh and Christ inhabiting the body of flesh he received from Mary. Both are his body...and he's the same Christ with the same authority (Hebrews 13:8). The only way he wouldn't be able to effect the same result is if *I* haven't truly died on that Cross WITH Christ (as your correctly point out), but still live in this body instead of Christ (Matthew 16:24; Luke 9:23; Galatians 2:20; Romans 6:6).

Mark 8:35

For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it.

So yes I agree with you that's it's incorrect to believe "one can NOT cease from sinning" IFFFF one has Christ in them (because Christ proved he's stronger than this flesh)...but I believe it's BECAUSE OF the true legal exchange at the cross (i.e. The Passover) that one is indeed able to stop sinning (no longer a slave to sin; no longer in bondage to it if one is already dead).

Because as Christ - as High Priest - enters into the heavenly Temple not made with human hands and sprinkles his blood on the throne of God, so likewise does Christ enter into this earthly temple and sprinkles his life's blood all over this heart of flesh; purifying (circumcising) it as you've said so that he may *again* walk in righteousness/obedience in Adam's body, just like he did 2000 years ago.

 

[BananaPie]

There will always be minds who disagree with God and by default, those minds will also disagree with anyone agreeing with God.

Finney is well known among Calvinist circles and fundamental Christians. The work Finney did most of his adult life consistently favored advancement of the Word of God, especially in bringing justice to those without a voice (Blacks, Women and Slaves).

Finney is a champion in speaking the truth about godly living to those professing Christianity, yet abusing slaves, women and the entire Black Community. Finney was right on target to preach that our "works" should parallel godly living, and godly living is how we practice faith in Christ. Therefore, how we treat others ("our works") is a reflexion of the salvation we have in Christ. In other words, don't abuse your slaves and consider yourself "saved." That's what Finney preached.

Unless anyone in this generation today has done "Better" than all Finney did in his day, then Nobody today has the right to condemn Finney. ...just saying.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

There will always be minds who disagree with God and by default, those minds will also disagree with anyone agreeing with God.

Finney is well known among Calvinist circles and fundamental Christians. The work Finney did most of his adult life consistently favored advancement of the Word of God, especially in bringing justice to those without a voice (Blacks, Women and Slaves).

Finney is a champion in speaking the truth about godly living to those professing Christianity, yet abusing slaves, women and the entire Black Community. Finney was right on target to preach that our "works" should parallel godly living, and godly living is how we practice faith in Christ. Therefore, how we treat others ("our works") is a reflexion of the salvation we have in Christ. In other words, don't abuse your slaves and consider yourself "saved." That's what Finney preached.

Unless anyone in this generation today has done "Better" than all Finney did in his day, then Nobody today has the right to condemn Finney. ...just saying.

Yet Finney's doctrine was anti-Christ; it was another gospel. By his own words he was an enemy of the cross of Christ. If you are an apologist for a social gospel, then so be it. But be aware that it is another gospel than what Paul proclaimed.

 

[BananaPie]

Yet Finney's doctrine was anti-Christ; it was another gospel.

Why do you believe it's wrong to preach to Christian slave owners that they are to free their slaves, or at least have Christ-like kindness towards their slaves? I don't understand why you have animosity towards certain Christians gone before us who were Calvinists.

We simply do not have the right to be mean or have anemic thoughts towards other fellow believers.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Why do you believe it's wrong to preach to Christian slave owners that they are to free their slaves, or at least have Christ-like kindness towards their slaves? I don't understand why you have animosity towards certain Christians gone before us who were Calvinists.

I never said those things are wrong, nor do I think they are wrong. That may have been something Finney did, but it is not the gospel of Christ.

btw Finney was not a Calvinist (if that's what you meant).

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

No we don't "work" to put to death the deeds of the flesh. We simply abide in the Spirit of Christ and the putting to death the deeds of the flesh is a natural thing. Thus we don't lust, steal, cheat, murder etc. because greater is He that is in us than he that is in the world. It is quite simple, we abide in Jesus Christ. It is a manifest reality. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.

What I find remarkable is your belief that someone cannot do this if they believe they have an inherited sinful nature. What you described above is the life I live, yet I am very aware that I have inherited a sinful nature from fallen Adam.