Following Paul To Follow Christ

[breno785au]

This made me think. It's like when we belong to a certain church, we submit to the leadership and its vision because we trust that they are following Jesus.

 

[John146]

Honestly think about what you just said in light of the truth of OTHERS seeing our GOOD works and GLORIFYING our Father which is in heaven....and then answer........

FAITH alone justifies before GOD

The results of FAITH--->WORKS justifies our claim of FAITH before MEN and POINTS MEN TO GOD and GIVES GLORY to GOD......why is it so hard for you and others to grasp that TRUTH

I’ve done many good things I guess, but never had a lost person glorify God because of it.

Besides, I’m justified by the faith of Christ. No amount of works justifies me before God or man.

The question James is answering is not will works follow true faith, but can faith save him? James 2:14

James 2:24 You see then, by works a man is justified and not by faith only.

 

[dcontroversal]

I’ve done many good things I guess, but never had a lost person glorify God because of it.

Besides, I’m justified by the faith of Christ. No amount of works justifies me before God or man.

The question James is answering is not will works follow true faith, but can faith save him? James 2:14

James 2:24 You see then, by works a man is justified and not by faith only.

Nope....can THAT faith save him........same problem the Jews have to this day....a belief in GOD but NO saving faith

 

[John146]

Nope....can THAT faith save him........same problem the Jews have to this day....a belief in GOD but NO saving faith

Paul says yes. No works required before or after. All that’s required is believing the gospel of Christ.

 

[UnderGrace]

Paul in Romans teaches a man is justified before GOD by faith without the deeds/works of the law attached
James in James teaches the above faith that justifies before God can be SEEN by MEN based upon our works/deeds

End of story

End of Story and Amen too!!!

 

[John146]

End of Story and Amen too!!!

I’ll ask you as well, are you concerned with being justified before men? Are they your judge? Do you make it a point to do good where others can see?

 

[UnderGrace]

I’ll ask you as well, are you concerned with being justified before men? Are they your judge? Do you make it a point to do good where others can see?

I completely understand your concern. James is not saying this so that we will judge each other, he is writing this so that we will care for each other, and others will believe, people cannot see the Spirit within we need to externalize out internal reality.

It is sad that the Lordship Salvationists have completely made James about proving your faith as in others get to judge and decide.

I am convinced that is not what James wanted, he wanted the Jews to have a profitable life, meaningful life here on the earth for the benefit of others and that even Abraham and Rahab demonstrated their faith by their works.

Remember these Jews were under the law so they are not understanding their new position in Christ.

The letter is not comparing false and genuine faith, that is adding to the text.

 

[John146]

I completely understand your concern. James is not saying this so that we will judge each other, he is writing this so that we will care for each other, and others will believe, people cannot see the Spirit within we need to externalize out internal reality.

It is sad that the Lordship Salvationists have completely made James about proving your faith as in others get to judge and decide.

I am convinced that is not what James wanted, he wanted the Jews to have a profitable life, meaningful life here on the earth for the benefit of others and that even Abraham and Rahab demonstrated their faith by their works.

Remember these Jews were under the law so they are not understanding their new position in Christ.

The letter is not comparing false and genuine faith, that is adding to the text.

How does James answer the question, can faith save him? How does Paul answer that same question?

 

[Journeyman]

Hello, brother Journeyman!

But fact is that there are some disagreements between the teachings of the earthly Jesus and the Risen One. The earthly Jesus preached obedience to the law of Moses, whereas Paul (the risen Jesus' spokesman) said we are not under the law.

Jesus taught our need for God's grace because of the law (Mt.5). He defined sin as not only evil action, but evil thoughts (Mt.5), harsher than Moses, so...blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy (Mt.5). And nothing Paul said disagrees.

Jesus told the man cured from leprosy to present himself to the priest and perform sacrifices (Paul would never say that).

Paul did the same thing by taking a vow (Act.21:20-26). He said,

to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win the Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law 1Cor.9:20

Jesus said it is impossible for a rich person to enter heaven (it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle = impossible), whereas Paul said he could live in want or in plenty.

Jesus meant for those who trust in wealth (Mk.10:24). But it's possible with God (Mk.10:27). How? Rich people who trust God know that what they have really belongs to God. They're "poor on spirit" (Mt.5:3). They also share for the same reason and if they lost their wealth, they'd bless God just the same.

According to the earthly Jesus very few will be saved. What did Paul say about that?

I don't know what statement of Pauls you're referring to.

In my city there are "conflicting" rules regarding traffic lights: One says you must stop at red lights and another says that, between sunset and sunrise, you may go provided there is no crossing traffic.

Well brother, the law is just the knowledge of good and evil asGod sees it. So the point is, I'm no better than you and you're no better than me. We need mercy and need to see that eveyone else does also.

The same happens in the New Testament: There are rules that apply to the Jews before the cross and rules that apply to both Jews and Gentiles after the cross, in the New Covenant.

For the sake of conscience.

As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions....I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. Rom.14:1,14-15

 

[obedienttogod]

and when did Jesus fulfill the Law?

Did Yeshua ever sin before or after His death-burial-resurrection? The Law is designed to reveal our human flaws. And Yeshua fulfilled the Law by not committing a single a sin and proving that a sinless life can be achieved. Of course, it did literally take God Himself to accomplish this task. Yeshua fulfilled every requirement, every single Law, every Commandment, and now we have a new Covenant we abide by.

 

[Noblemen]

Wow half of what I wrote didn't get pasted for some odd reason, good thing haha man hook and jab boys and girls, guess I'll paste 2 hang on to your hats

 

[Absolutely]

This made me think. It's like when we belong to a certain church, we submit to the leadership and its vision because we trust that they are following Jesus.

Exactly.
It is noteworthy that the Pauline only adherants put paul above Jesus.
Most in modern church leadership have enough sense not to do that.

 

[Absolutely]

Paul says yes. No works required before or after. All that’s required is believing the gospel of Christ.

What non pauline only fellowships preach saved by works?
We all know baptism is not an issue.
So other than the baptism non issue component,give a few examples. There must be hundreds for the amount of outrage at the non pauline books.

 

[Absolutely]

You are aware that Yeshua was full of both the Father (as He eloquently explains in John) and of the Holy Spirit (as He points out this is His power source to cast out Demons, to heal, to perform miracles in Matthew 12)...meaning He was the Christ well before He ever resurrected?

Before He journeyed after instructing His Disciples that He would be caught, killed, and rise again...Peter answered His question to WHOM they thought He was. Peter claimed, Yeshua was the Messiah!! This means the Christ, or Anointed One. To be Anointed, meant He was full of the Father and the Holy Spirit. This is why it is written, that within Him was the full GodHead!!

So, to emphasize there is a difference in what He spoke about before/after His Death-Burial-Resurrection makes no sense. You would be ignoring His message concerning the Tribulation like never seen before. Where He expounds that the Elect will indeed go through the Tribulation and the days will be shortened in those times, when no man can bare such suffering for the Elect's sake. That immediately after the Tribulation ends, the sun darkens and the moon turns to blood. This is when the Elect is charged to keep close watch for the sign of lightning that splits the skies from the East to the West. This is the Second Coming and the angels will be sent to gather the remaining Elect.

His Parables explain how the Father views us even when we fall and turn away.

His message on Faith is essential to our every day walk. We learned the true essence of Communion and why we should observe it. We see examples of how to face adversity, and how we can properly see miracles, victory, and signs by our own walk in Him through His power. The list is endless to what we would be throwing away if we did as you suggest.

And if this is how you proclaimed to those who felt you were a false teacher-prophet-etc, I have no doubts to the reasoning behind why someone with the knowledge of God's Word would label you as such!!

They have a skewed starting place.
They must assume the bible was not written by God to his people.
That is the incubater to birth all their beliefs.
Hence we have the endless " ok who was the audience" to whom is that chapter written"
"That was ONLY to the jews"

Thus they see an inferior pre resurrection Jesus ,not able to understand the gospel.

 

[John146]

What non pauline only fellowships preach saved by works?
We all know baptism is not an issue.
So other than the baptism non issue component,give a few examples. There must be hundreds for the amount of outrage at the non pauline books.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[Marcelo]

Paul did the same thing by taking a vow (Act.21:20-26). He said,

to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win the Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law 1Cor.9:20

That was just a "politically correct" attitude of Paul to win some Jews.

 

[Marcelo]

Marcelo said: Jesus said it is impossible for a rich person to enter heaven (it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle = impossible), whereas Paul said he could live in want or in plenty.

Jesus meant for those who trust in wealth (Mk.10:24). But it's possible with God (Mk.10:27). How? Rich people who trust God know that what they have really belongs to God. They're "poor on spirit" (Mt.5:3). They also share for the same reason and if they lost their wealth, they'd bless God just the same.

What you say is correct for all God's people after the cross, but not for the Jews before the cross. Let's read:

…23Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25When the disciples heard this they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”…

See? The disciples were greatly astonished because they perfectly understood what Jesus said. Note that Jesus didn't say: "Oh, don't worry so much! Actually I am referring to those who trust in wealth." Rather the Lord said: “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”…

See? Jesus acknowledged that with man that was impossible. Then the Lord says but with God all things are possible.”…. What does this mean? Probably He was referring to His death on the cross through which our salvation would be made possible.

 

[Marcelo]

Marcelo said: According to the earthly Jesus very few will be saved. What did Paul say about that?

I don't know what statement of Pauls you're referring to.

I'm asking you! Did Paul ever say that only very few will be saved?

 

[Marcelo]

Yeshua fulfilled the Law by not committing a single a sin and proving that a sinless life can be achieved.

So, before His last minute of life on earth He had not yet completely fulfilled the Law, and therefore the law of Moses was in force throughout His earthly ministry.

 

[obedienttogod]

They have a skewed starting place.
They must assume the bible was not written by God to his people.
That is the incubater to birth all their beliefs.
Hence we have the endless " ok who was the audience" to whom is that chapter written"
"That was ONLY to the jews"

Thus they see an inferior pre resurrection Jesus ,not able to understand the gospel.

Even though I agree to your assessments, I still believe if anyone of us who spoke to any true believer by beginning with, "Whatever Yeshua said before His death-burial-resurrection, is not as valid and important to what He said after," would also be claimed a false teacher/preacher/etc. That literally just does not hold water one bit. And it definitely is not going to be accepted by anyone who has a clue!!