Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look

[Magenta]

I hear what you are saying. My question is:

Why would God harden the heart of someone who has already hardened their own heart? That doesn't make any sense (to me).

God answers this question in Exodus 14:4, and perhaps other places as well, such as Exodus 9:16.

I will harden Pharaoh’s heart so that he will pursue them. But I will gain honor by means of Pharaoh
and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD.” So this is what the Israelites did. (14:4)

I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power
to you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth. (9:16)

It is ultimately to show forth His power, sovereignty and supremacy
over the false gods/goddesses of the Egyptians, and Pharaoh himself.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

God answers this question in Exodus 14:4, and perhaps other places as well, such as Exodus 9:16.

I will harden Pharaoh’s heart so that he will pursue them. But I will gain honor by means of Pharaoh
and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD.” So this is what the Israelites did. (14:4)

I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power
to you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth. (9:16)

It is ultimately to show forth His power, sovereignty and supremacy
over the false gods/goddesses of the Egyptians, and Pharaoh himself.

I couldn't agree more. Power - This is all about Power

"and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD"

Over and over again, the Lord make this general statement: "Then they will know that I am the Lord."

I should have kept track of all of these comments by God, but the number is more than most might think. And this idea is at the very core of what I am trying to accomplish in this thread: To show that God is in control and that we are not. If we were in control, how could God demonstrate His Power?

The entire Pharoah to Jewish relationship is about the Power of God. That is the number one most important concept that we are to gain from the story. To be released from captivity is not by the will of humans, but by the will of God. Hence, Spiritual Circumcision, the Operation of Faith performed by Christ. As we read of Pharaoh and the Jews, we are really reading about Spiritual Circumcision.

Leviticus 26:13 NIV - "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt so that you would no longer be slaves to the Egyptians; I broke the bars of your yoke and enabled you to walk with heads held high."

Heads held high is equivalent to being whole and complete in Christ:

Colossians 2:9-11 KJV - "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ . . ."

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Spot on! Pharoah's heart was hardened by himself for the first 5 plagues:

So all those verses I quoted from Exodus are a theory in your estimation? Really? What DO you believe in the Bible?

The aggressive tone . . . I walk away from. I don't have the heart for it.

How is it that you keep claiming to "hear" things when you read posts? All I hear when I type posts are the clicking from my keyboard.

How do you hear "tones"? Maybe you ARE "hearing things". Better get that checked out!

You referred to my explanation as a "theory" even though I backed it all up with verses that proved what I believe. How is that a "theory"?

Or is that just a way to change the subject?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

How do you hear "tones"? Maybe you ARE "hearing things". Better get that checked out!

You just became the lastest addition to my Ignore List. Unbelievable.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You just became the lastest addition to my Ignore List. Unbelievable.

Hm. The word "lastest" insinuates that this poster won't be adding any more to that list. lol

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

God answers this question in Exodus 14:4, and perhaps other places as well, such as Exodus 9:16.

I will harden Pharaoh’s heart so that he will pursue them. But I will gain honor by means of Pharaoh
and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD.” So this is what the Israelites did. (14:4)

I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power
to you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth. (9:16)

It is ultimately to show forth His power, sovereignty and supremacy
over the false gods/goddesses of the Egyptians, and Pharaoh himself.

@Magenta . Please help me understand what it is that I'm missing.

In Exodus 4, God stated that He would harden Pharaoh's heart (verse 21). The following 11 or 12 verses, we find the first instance of Pharoah refusing to let the Jews go. In those 11 or 12 verses, there is no mention of Pharaoh hardening his own heart. How was or am I in error when I wrote:

"Next, God hardened Pharaoh's heart [before] the plagues began."

I don't understand how what I wrote is not true. How am I wrong to state that God did what He said he would do, which is harden Pharoah's heart so that the king would not let the Jews go. Unless my Bibles are wrong, I cannot understand how things could be any different.

 

[Magenta]

@Magenta . Please help me understand what it is that I'm missing.

In Exodus 4, God stated that He would harden Pharaoh's heart (verse 21). The following 11 or 12 verses, we find the first instance of Pharoah refusing to let the Jews go. In those 11 or 12 verses, there is no mention of Pharaoh hardening his own heart. How was or am I in error when I wrote:

"Next, God hardened Pharaoh's heart [before] the plagues began."

I don't understand how what I wrote is not true. How am I wrong to state that God did what He said he would do, which is harden Pharoah's heart so that the king would not let the Jews go. Unless my Bibles are wrong, I cannot understand how things could be any different.

The natural man is universally an enemy to God by way of Adam. Pharaoh
hardened his own heart multiple times before God further hardened it.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

The natural man is universally an enemy to God by way of Adam. Pharaoh
hardened his own heart multiple times before God further hardened it.

I'm sorry, but I don't get it.

 

[Magenta]

I'm sorry, but I don't get it.

Romans 5:10
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death
of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Romans 8:7
The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

Colossians 1:21-22

1 Corinthians 2:14

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Romans 5:10
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death
of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Romans 8:7
The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

Colossians 1:21-22

1 Corinthians 2:14

Thank you. But, I'm saying that I don't understand how your answer corrects what I offered.

 

[Magenta]

Thank you. But, I'm saying that I don't understand how your answer corrects what I offered.

God did not have to harden Pharaoh's heart at first. Pharaoh hardened it himself as shown in the Scriptures already given.

 

[Beckie]

God answers this question in Exodus 14:4, and perhaps other places as well, such as Exodus 9:16.

I will harden Pharaoh’s heart so that he will pursue them. But I will gain honor by means of Pharaoh
and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD.” So this is what the Israelites did. (14:4)

I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power
to you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth. (9:16)

It is ultimately to show forth His power, sovereignty and supremacy
over the false gods/goddesses of the Egyptians, and Pharaoh himself.

another Exo_4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go

 

[FreeGrace2]

God did not have to harden Pharaoh's heart at first. Pharaoh hardened it himself as shown in the Scriptures already given.

I gave all the evidence for Pharoah hardening his own heart in post #288. Maybe the fact that I posted the evidence has gotten in the way of the other poster's understanding. He seems to think everything I post is unbiblical.

 

[Thewatchman]

This comes from Got Questions .com
Non-Israelites were not to participate in many areas of the Jewish sacrificial system. However, one way in which a foreigner could participate was in the burnt offering (Leviticus 17:8–9). The foreigner was to bring his burnt offering to the tabernacle, just like any natural-born Israelite. When a burnt offering was made at the tabernacle, it was clear that the sacrifice was made to the Lord Almighty and not to another god.

In addition, Numbers 15:14-16 says, “For the generations to come, whenever a foreigner or anyone else living among you presents a food offering as an aroma pleasing to the Lord, they must do exactly as you do. The community is to have the same rules for you and for the foreigner residing among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the foreigner shall be the same before the Lord: The same laws and regulations will apply both to you and to the foreigner residing among you.” Many traditions were restricted only to Jews, but those that were not could be observed by Gentile sojourners living among the people of Israel.

The Feast of Weeks and the Feast of Booths/Tabernacles were also mentioned as festivals that a “sojourner” could attend (Deuteronomy 16). Sojourners were to be treated well, since the Israelites had likewise been sojourners in Egypt (Exodus 23:9).

While many distinctions were made in the Old Testament between Jewish and non-Jewish practices, the Old Testament is clear that God’s love extends to all who will trust in Him. A striking example is found in the book of Jonah. Jonah, a prophet, runs from God after being called to preach against the wickedness of the Gentile city of Nineveh. After God gets His prophet back on track, Jonah preaches to the people of Nineveh. They fast in repentance, and God has mercy on them and spares their city. Through it all, Jonah learns what Peter learns centuries later: “How true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right” (Acts 10:34–35).

So I hear about what you're saying in terms of how the Jews needed to choose, but what about those in verse 25? Could they choose?

"25No one shall be able to stand against you. The LORD your God will lay the fear of you and the dread of you on all the land that you shall tread, as he promised you."

It doesn't really sound like they have the same choices as the Jews appear to have.

What do you think?
I thank that as long as they followed God He kept His word and they could overcome the enemy. Just like us today
If as they did time and time again just as we do today; They did not listen to Him and follow His way He let the enemy overcome them.
Moses was told to strike the rock only one time and the water would come out. On time God tested him, he struck the rock and the water did not come out right away. Moses should have wated for the water to come but He didn't he struck the rock again and that
disobedience kept him from entering the promised land.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

God did not have to harden Pharaoh's heart at first. Pharaoh hardened it himself as shown in the Scriptures already given.

I don't get it. Why wouldn't we just follow what the Bible says as it appears in a timeline order? And here is what the Bible says:

1) - Genesis 41:28, 32 NKJV - 28 "This is the thing which I have spoken to Pharaoh. God has shown Pharaoh what He is about to do. ... 32 "And the dream was repeated to Pharaoh twice because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass."

Next, Exodus chapter four is where the word "harden" first appears (in the Bible) in relation to the human heart. God introduces it this way:

2) - Exodus 4:21 NKJV - 21 "And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go."

11 or 12 verses later, there is no mention of Pharaoh hardening his own heart, but what we do find is that Pharaoh refuses to let Israel go, hence, a hardened heart, which is exactly what God told Moses He would do to Pharaoh.

Exodus 5:1-2 NKJV - 1 "Afterward Moses and Aaron went in and told Pharaoh, "Thus says the LORD God of Israel: 'Let My people go, that they may hold a feast to Me in the wilderness.' " 2 And Pharaoh said, "Who is the LORD, that I should obey His voice to let Israel go? I do not know the LORD, nor will I let Israel go."

This is exactly what God said he would do in Genesis chapter 41. God hardened Pharaoh's heart SO THAT (there's that phrase again) Pharaoh would not let Israel go. As said, 11 or 12 verses later, that's exactly what happened.

If this doesn't make sense, then I am utterly bedazzled as to why. As for Pharaoh's heart being hardened, here are the remaining Scriptures:

Exodus 7:3 NKJV - 3 "And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.

God = 2

Exodus 8:15 NKJV - 15 "But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the LORD had said."

Pharaoh = 1

Exodus 8:32 NKJV - 32 "But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go."

Pharaoh = 2

Exodus 9:12 NKJV - 12 "But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses."

God = 3

Exodus 9:34 NKJV - 34 "And when Pharaoh saw that the rain, the hail, and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet more; and he hardened his heart, he and his servants."

Pharaoh = 3

Exodus 10:1 NKJV - 1 "Now the LORD said to Moses, "Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his servants, that I may show these signs of Mine before him"

God = 4

Exodus 10:20 NKJV - 20 "But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the children of Israel go."

God = 5

Exodus 10:27 NKJV - 27 "But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go."

God = 6

Exodus 11:10 NKJV - 10 "So Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh; and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the children of Israel go out of his land."

God =7

Exodus 14:4 NKJV - 4 "Then I will harden Pharaoh's heart, so that he will pursue them; and I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over all his army, that the Egyptians may know that I [am] the LORD." And they did so."

God =8

Exodus 14:8 NKJV - 8 "And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued the children of Israel; and the children of Israel went out with boldness."

God =9

And as for the rest of Egypt, the Lord hardened their hearts as well.

Exodus 14:17 NKJV - 17 "And I indeed will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them. So I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over all his army, his chariots, and his horsemen."

 

[Magenta]

You have given verses where Pharaoh hardened his own heart. People start out with a heart
hardened to God. That is why we had to be given a new heart. God says ahead of time what
is going to happen... sure! But He does not do that very thing that very instant. Jesus was
prophesied in Genesis 3:15. Thousands of years later? Jesus came. And He told John in
Revelation He is coming soon. Two thousand years later? Is that soon? Right away?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

You have given verses where Pharaoh hardened his own heart. People start out with a heart
hardened to God. That is why we had to be given a new heart. God says ahead of time what
is going to happen... sure! But He does not do that very thing that very instant. Jesus was
prophesied in Genesis 3:15. Thousands of years later? Jesus came. And He told John in
Revelation He is coming soon. Two thousand years later? Is that soon? Right away?

I "get" the points that you're making, but they don't make sense to me. If we were to speak directly to each other, we could probably get to the bottom of this, but through simple text, this could take a while. haha

Let's let this one go.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

And so we remain in Egypt with Israel. I've covered this story quite a bit, yet I have found but another clear passage that shows that God was in control of the thoughts of the Egyptians. Incredibly, the vast majority refuse to believe that in fact . . . the Lord chooses thoughts for mere humans.

Exodus 11:3 NIV - "(The LORD made the Egyptians favorably disposed toward the people, and Moses himself was highly regarded in Egypt by Pharaoh's officials and by the people.)"

How many people did the Lord cause to look favorably upon the Jews who were causing so many troubles for Egypt? All of Egypt. Some believe it was between 3 to 4.5 million. That would be quite a Powerful thing for the Lord to do. To strip the Egyptians of their free right to choose how they would handle the Jews; well, it doesn't seem fair to those of you who believe that humans have free will. Clearly, Egypt had been stripped of their free right to choose how they should feel and behave regarding the Jews, as when the Jews asked for Gold, Silver, and fine linens, the Egyptians gave them up without confrontation . . . against their personal will, and we're openly plundered.

Exodus 12:35-36 NIV - "The Israelites did as Moses instructed and asked the Egyptians for articles of silver and gold and for clothing. 36 The LORD had made the Egyptians favorably disposed toward the people, and they gave them what they asked for; so they plundered the Egyptians."

When will this group accept the fact that God controls the thoughts of people?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Job 12:23-25 NLT - "He builds up nations, and he destroys them. He expands nations, and he abandons them. He strips kings of understanding and leaves them wandering in a pathless wasteland. They grope in the darkness without a light. He makes them stagger like drunkards."

Who decides what persons will have "understanding"? Who causes people to wander like vagabonds? This certainly seems to fly into the face of "free will", does it not? For, these kings are not walking without understanding based upon their own volition (choice), but instead, the Lord causes them to be this way. These people are not ignoring what is True and right . . . but they are forced to possess such little "understanding" that they walk without purpose.

Again I will ask . . . how do you KNOW that God is not causing "you" to be a specific way with "your" understandings? How do you know, for sure, that you are choosing your own path?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

In a previous day, I offered areference to Deuteronomy 7:17-21 and that the Terror of the Lord was equated to the "Hornet." In Exodus 23:27-28, most translations refer to the Hornet in verse 28; however, the NLT does not, as it stays with the theme of Terror (but the footnotes do reference the Hornet). But all virtually all translations reference either the Terror of the Lord or the Fear of God in verse 27. If a person does a short and simple study on this concept of Spiritual Terror, we will find that it is relevant in both the Old and New Testaments. It causes not just Spiritual Fear, but Panic and Spiritual Confusion.

Exodus 23:27-28 HNV - "I will send my terror before you, and will confuse all the people to whom you come, and I will make all your enemies turn their backs to you. I will send the hornet before you, which will drive out the Hivvi, the Kana`ani, and the Hittite, from before you."

In my estimation, for what it is worth, the Hornet is the Spiritual Name for what drives this Holy Terror. Here is another quote from the Blue Letter Bible dictionary:

"Hornets are mentioned only in Ex 23:28; De 7:20; Jos 24:12. All three references are to the miraculous interposition of God in driving out before the Israelites the original inhabitants of the promised land. There has been much speculation as to whether hornets are literally meant. The following seems to throw some light on this question (Ex 23:20,27,28): "Behold, I send an angel before thee, to keep thee by the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared..... I will send my terror before thee, and will discomfit all the people to whom thou shalt come, and I will make all thine enemies turn their backs unto thee. And I will send the hornet before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee." The "terror" of Ex 23:27 may well be considered to be typified by the "hornet" of 23:28, the care for the Israelites (23:20) being thrown into marked contrast with the confusion of their enemies. Compare Isa 7:18, where the fly and the bee symbolize the military forces of Egypt and Assyria: "And it shall come to pass in that day, that Yahweh will hiss for the fly that is in the uttermost part of the rivers of Egypt, and for the bee that is in the land of Assyria."

[IF] indeed the Hornet is in reference to a Spiritual Terror, then it flies in the face of a person choosing their own emotions, hence, free will is at stake. This is to be considered unfair warfare against humans and those of the Seven Nations. The Seven Nations were abominations, thus I reference them lightly as "humans," however, the Apostle Paul had experienced the Terror of the Lord, and we know that he belonged to Christ, hence, fully human and "Known" by God. But either way, this is a Spiritual Terror that infiltrates the human mind and takes full control over it . . . there is nothing that the "will" of a person can do about it. When a person is confronted with this Spirutual Terror, their abilities to think, reason, and ration are absolutely stripped from their intellectual "toolkit." A person is rendered to essentially nothing, and their ability to choose to think clearly is 100% robbed of their mindset.

Is this fair? Is it right that God has the ability to force us to think, feel, and act in specific ways that are contrary to the True things that we want to think, feel, and the way we behave?