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Fundamentalist Thread
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edward99
Guest
You reject that Christ paid your penalty, served as a Substitute, saving you from the wrath and death (lake of fire) you deserve.
Exactly what parts do not "mesh" with Who you think God is?
I'm interested to hear what "I accept "atonement" in general" means.
When you are 'spreading the Gospel', when it gets to the part about Christ's death what do you say?
If people ask why Jesus suffered and bled and died on the Cross, what reason do you give?
While I'm at it, I might as well ask what part of His life concerns you directly as far as God is concerned?
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TheGrungeDiva
Guest
I reject that there was a blood penalty to pay. The God of the Bible is not a vampire, thank you very much.
I reject that God would delight in the eternal torture of any of his children. That does not ring true with the God about whom Jesus preached.
It's not just me. It's me and Jesus. So I'm in pretty good company.
"Atone" means we are made "at one" with God. We are brought into full communion with Him, through Jesus Christ.
I say that God so loved the world, that he gave his only son for us, that we may not die but have eternal life.
I say that he died a horrible death on the cross because he loved us so much.
Well, we don't know every last detail of his life. If there were documents of every day of his life, such documents have been lost. But here's what we do have, and what I think is important (or else it wouldn't be in there):
1) Jesus' birth. He was born of a virgin, son of God and son of Man (well, "woman" strictly speaking, but we all know what it means).
2) Jesus' ministry. He preached about a God of love. He never contradicted Scripture, but he did put forward an understanding / interpretation of Scripture that was different from what most people had heard. The religious authorities of his day were all about following the commandments not out of love for the God who had saved them from Egypt, but out of fear (which meant something different in ancient Hebrew). He spoke in parables, mostly, during this period. Though not exclusively. The beatitudes are here. He also had the power to perform miracles (because he was God, hello), and people flocked to him. A combination of his "radical" message and his popularity made the priests in power nervous.
3) Jerusalem: The Passion of Jesus starts when he sets his face to Jerusalem. His entry to that great city is triumphant, but things go south fast. People are excited at first, because of his fame, but when they hear how radical he is, they're not so sure. Plus, the religious leaders are really ticked at him at this point, and they are working the crowds to go against him. Crowds are so easily manipulated -- that hasn't changed in 2,000 years, has it.
4) The Three Days. I'm assuming you know the rest of the story: The Last Supper. The Garden at Gethsemane. The Trial. The Cross. The Tomb. Then the EMPTY TOMB!!!! The good news, first to the 3 Marys, and then to some other disciples, and my, how the word spread
5) Ascension, Pentecost and Beyond. There's the fish-fry on the beach as told in the gospel of John. The road to Emmaus. The ascension into heaven, where he promises to come back. The miracle of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, what we consider the "birthday" of the Church. Paul's mission ... After that, the documentation is no longer Scriptural, we turn to historical documents, early Church Fathers, etc.
The fact is, Jesus is STILL WITH US TODAY. He is in the heart of every believer. We are the hands, feet, mouths of Jesus, doing the work that Jesus started so long ago. So the story has not ended.
I'm not sure what this has to do with the thread at hand, or if this answers your question at all, but you asked, so there you go.
Oh yes, necessary and needful. That post reveals a complete salvation and redemption for sinful man through the substitutionary sacrifice and shed blood of Christ. It involves God's justice satisfied, mercy that took away what we deserved, righteousness imputed through faith, justification of the guilty by faith, reconciliation available to man separated by the fall, redemption provided by the Son of man through His own blood, sin and sins imputed to Christ and paid for and put away through the death, burial and resurrection of His only begotten Son whom He sent and grace given to the believing sinner who trust's in the finished work of Christ and didn't deserve any of it.
Not only did Jesus Christ die for sin but He became sin to die as sin. For Christ to die as sin He must be looked upon by the Father with sin, making Him the sacrificial Lamb of God that ALL sin and ALL sins were transferred to on the cross and paid for through the shedding of His blood and through death. The payment had nothing to do with a ransom made to the Devil, it was an offering to God for the sin and sins of ALL men.
Many professing Christians believe, in a measure, that repentance (or penance) is an act of atoning for their own sin and demand sorrow and repentance of sin instead of trusting the justification that is offered through the blood of Christ. They feel they must participate in the remission of their own sin through repentance and that faith in the atoning work of the blood is not enough to cleanse and redeem them from their sin. That is 100% a work of the flesh and has no place in the finished work salvation of the atoning blood of Christ. Anything that we require or add to the finished work of the cross is a form and work of our own righteousness and fails the grace of God that comes by faith.
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rainacorn
Guest
Sorry to jump in here, but this confuses me.
Why do you think He needed to die a horrible death on the cross? "Because He loved us" doesn't really answer that.
Is there anything in the Bible pre-death of Jesus that leads you to think God never demanded/required blood sacrifices?
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edward99
Guest
Leviticus 17:11
For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.
Hebrews 9:22
And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Matthew 26;28
for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
Why did you add in delights? Is that how you cast your golden calf?
Ezekiel 18:23
"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
I typed 'death (lake of fire)' - if you wish to debate 'eternal torture' say so. But please don't pretend i said something I didn't.
So, you also deny that the unsaved actually go into an actual lake of fire?
Revelation 21:8
"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Do you own a red letter Bible? Who said the following?:
Revelation 21:8
"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Oh.
Yes. This non-scriptural bloodless redefinition of Atonement to mean At-One-With.
Having read some of your posts I gave you much more credit than this.
kaphar: to cover over, pacify, make propitiation
Transliteration: kaphar
Short Definition: atonement
Word Origin
denominative verb from kopher
kopher: bribe
Original Word: כֹּ֫פֶר
I. כֹּפֶר noun masculine the price of a life, ransom (ποινή, wergild); — ׳כ Exodus 21:30 10t.; suffix כָּפְרְךָ Isaiah 43:3; כָפְרוֺ Psalm 49:8; —
1 a price for ransom of a life Job 33:24; Job 36:18; עַל ׳כ Exodus 21:30 (Covt. code; "" מִּדְיֹן נַפְשׁוֺ
; נפשׁ ׳כ Proverbs 13:8; לְ ׳כ ransom for Proverbs 6:35; Proverbs 21:18; Numbers 35:31,32 (P); כָּפְרוֺ his ransom Psalm 49:8 ׅ "" ( פדה; כָּפְרְךָ thy ransom Isaiah 43:3 ׅ "" ( תַּחְתֶּיךָ; כֹּפֶר alone 1 Samuel 12:3; Amos 5:12.2 in the ritual of P נַפְשׁוֺ ׳כ Exodus 30:12 is a half shekel of the sanctuary paid by each male above twenty years at the census in order that there might be no plague upon them. It was offered to Yahweh, לְכַמֵּר על to atone for them.
1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Once more (though you saw it the first time):
2434 hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party. 2434 (hilasmós) is only used twice (1 Jn 2:2, 4:10) – both times of Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath, on all confessed sin. By the sacrifice of Himself, Jesus Christ provided the ultimate 2434 /hilasmós ("propitiation").
How does your Bloodless, non-substitutionary sacrifice bring you into full communion with God?
How through Jesus?
What did Jesus do that brings us into communion with God?
Is God's wrath coming upon the unrepentant?
Is God ever wrathful?
He gave His Son to die a horrible death because He loved us so much...Why would He do that?
Doesn't He love His Son?
What kind of God would give His Own Son up to die a horrible death for nothing?
Well, we don't know every last detail of his life. If there were documents of every day of his life, such documents have been lost. But here's what we do have, and what I think is important (or else it wouldn't be in there):
1) Jesus' birth. He was born of a virgin, son of God and son of Man (well, "woman" strictly speaking, but we all know what it means).
2) Jesus' ministry. He preached about a God of love. He never contradicted Scripture, but he did put forward an understanding / interpretation of Scripture that was different from what most people had heard. The religious authorities of his day were all about following the commandments not out of love for the God who had saved them from Egypt, but out of fear (which meant something different in ancient Hebrew). He spoke in parables, mostly, during this period. Though not exclusively. The beatitudes are here. He also had the power to perform miracles (because he was God, hello), and people flocked to him. A combination of his "radical" message and his popularity made the priests in power nervous.
3) Jerusalem: The Passion of Jesus starts when he sets his face to Jerusalem. His entry to that great city is triumphant, but things go south fast. People are excited at first, because of his fame, but when they hear how radical he is, they're not so sure. Plus, the religious leaders are really ticked at him at this point, and they are working the crowds to go against him. Crowds are so easily manipulated -- that hasn't changed in 2,000 years, has it.
4) The Three Days. I'm assuming you know the rest of the story: The Last Supper. The Garden at Gethsemane. The Trial. The Cross. The Tomb. Then the EMPTY TOMB!!!! The good news, first to the 3 Marys, and then to some other disciples, and my, how the word spread
5) Ascension, Pentecost and Beyond. There's the fish-fry on the beach as told in the gospel of John. The road to Emmaus. The ascension into heaven, where he promises to come back. The miracle of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, what we consider the "birthday" of the Church. Paul's mission ... After that, the documentation is no longer Scriptural, we turn to historical documents, early Church Fathers, etc.
The fact is, Jesus is STILL WITH US TODAY. He is in the heart of every believer. We are the hands, feet, mouths of Jesus, doing the work that Jesus started so long ago. So the story has not ended.
I'm not sure what this has to do with the thread at hand, or if this answers your question at all, but you asked, so there you go.
Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
"Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.
2 Corinthians 5:21
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Romans 3
21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
31Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
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TheGrungeDiva
Guest
Sure:
For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it; You are not pleased with burnt offering. (Ps 51:16)
For I delight in loyalty rather than sacrifice, And in the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings. (Hos 6:6)
And then, Jesus, explaining what his Father meant by these words:
"But if you had known what this means, ' I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent. (Mt 12:7)
Hope that helps. God does not like offerings of burnt flesh and blood. God wants the sacrifice of our heart, our life, our whole self.
A god who delights in the smell of burnt flesh is not one worthy of praise. Those are the pagan gods, like Ba'al, who demand sacrifice offerings. Our God is not like their gods.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
God said this. the Penalty of sin is death. Thus the only thing which can atone for sin is death. without the shedding of blood their can be no forgiveness. why? the penalty of sin is death. If death does not occure, their can be no atonement.
Here is the problem with mankind since the beginning of time.
1. God is loving, thus he will suffer none to hell, for it is not in his nature.
2. God demands retribution for sin in order to forgive us, so we must make retribution by doing things to allow God to forgive us, This sacramental works based Gospel (which is no gospel at all) started with a fight between cain and abel. Abel did what God commanded, Sacrificed an animal (death) cain tried to appease God with human good by offering him the fruit of his labors (works)
God rejected human good, and accepted Abels blood sacrifice. Cain got angry and killed abel. and thus has been mankind reaction to Gods way since day 1.
The penalty of sin is death, But the GIFT OF GOD is ETERNAL life, through Jesus? why? he shed his blood on calvary.
anyone who adds to this work of God by adding our own human good with things like baptism, communion, acts of penance, giving or whatever work of human good they demand we must pay to make retribution or allow Gods grace to come to us, are going the way of Cain,
Anyone who says God will not allow anyone to go to hell, does not know God. God did not send them their, they sent themselves there because they rejected the one gift God offered them by rejecting his son.
Here is the problem with mankind since the beginning of time.
1. God is loving, thus he will suffer none to hell, for it is not in his nature.
2. God demands retribution for sin in order to forgive us, so we must make retribution by doing things to allow God to forgive us, This sacramental works based Gospel (which is no gospel at all) started with a fight between cain and abel. Abel did what God commanded, Sacrificed an animal (death) cain tried to appease God with human good by offering him the fruit of his labors (works)
God rejected human good, and accepted Abels blood sacrifice. Cain got angry and killed abel. and thus has been mankind reaction to Gods way since day 1.
The penalty of sin is death, But the GIFT OF GOD is ETERNAL life, through Jesus? why? he shed his blood on calvary.
anyone who adds to this work of God by adding our own human good with things like baptism, communion, acts of penance, giving or whatever work of human good they demand we must pay to make retribution or allow Gods grace to come to us, are going the way of Cain,
Anyone who says God will not allow anyone to go to hell, does not know God. God did not send them their, they sent themselves there because they rejected the one gift God offered them by rejecting his son.
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TheGrungeDiva
Guest
I have already outlined my belief. You have made it clear that you do not agree with me. I see little point in answering your questions again. If you did not accept my answers the first time, why do you think my answers would satisfy you any more if I answered them again?
You have your beliefs, I have mine. You have your interpretation of Scripture to support your beliefs, I have mine.
You are comfortable with your beliefs, and I with mine.
I do admit I should not have said your belief is "unbiblical" or "does not mesh with the God Jesus preached about." That was unfair of me, judgmental, and downright wrong. For that I apologize and ask your forgiveness. I know there is great Scriptural support for the substitution and penal theories of atonement, as I studied them at great length. I reject them, but that doesn't mean that Jesus rejects you, in any way, shape or form. Some of the greatest theologians in the world agree with your theory of atonement. I'd venture a guess that there are more out there who side with yours than who side with mine, although I know of no recent poll in the seminary classrooms and offices.
In other words, you and I will never solve this problem. Minds far greater than ours have not, to date, reached an agreement, I see little hope for it on this forum.
C
chesser
Guest
so if i belive in all but 1,2 and half of 12, am i a fundamentalist? oh, and are you guys really arguing over whether burnt sacrifices are still required? Jesus was the lamb of god, meaning he is the sacrifice that god sent to be killed for our sins, anyone who accepts the sacrifice will be forgiven,and anyone who does not will be thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death(revelations 1:28) and be as though they never were(obadiah 16)
The issue for believers in the body of Christ is that there is only one faith and we are to endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit in that one faith, that reveals one Lord, one baptism, in one body through one Spirit (Eph 4:3-6). Comfortability in one's beliefs is not what Christ is after for the body of Christ, His church, who He is the head. There is no unity in different beliefs, especially concerning the atonement, the cross and the doctrine of Christ. We can not walk with God unless we are in agreement with His word, His promises and His Holy Spirit, so how can we walk together as believers in the same body if we are in disagreement concerning that one faith and the things of God?
1Cor 1:10
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
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rainacorn
Guest
I appreciate the response. I think I see where you're coming from.
What of the rest of it though? Why did Jesus need to die a horrible death?
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TheGrungeDiva
Guest
I wouldn't say Jesus needed to die a horrible death. I would say Jesus did die a horrible death, because that's what happened. He was preaching some pretty radical stuff (heck, it's radical even today), and the PTB (or PTW -- powers that were) didn't like it.
I will say, however, that his death defeated death, and that we all live because he lives.
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edward99
Guest
Isaiah 53:10
But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
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edward99
Guest
Looking for clarification.
No problem.
Yes.
No offense was taken.
Kind of you to mention it though.
No, it doesn't.
Its not a theory. Its what Scripture says.
It may surprise you to know more and more are professing as you do.
For the same reason: their God would never deliver up His Own Innocent Son to suffer, bleed and die to purchase ungodly sinners.
The Emergent Church conversations are awash in revulsion over what they call "Cosmic Child Abuse".
There's no problem as far as I'm concerned. I just believe what the Bible says.
They figured that if they did it in the late afternoon, they'd get an inclusive lunch.
That's how the early-bird special was born.
The ritual stopped when too many people fell over the bloody and slippery floor.
To fix the situation, they began using rabbis to bless the food ahead of time.
And that children, is how Kosher meals were born.
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Ariel82
Guest
They figured that if they did it in the late afternoon, they'd get an inclusive lunch.
That's how the early-bird special was born.
The ritual stopped when too many people fell over the bloody and slippery floor.
To fix the situation, they began using rabbis to bless the food ahead of time.
And that children, is how Kosher meals were born.
lol, wow and I thought i was sarcastic
makes me see how much more I can improve in that area
PS be warned some people will not get the humor and probably be offended and react very ..... ummm, ,,,,,,not nicely....
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psychomom
Guest
May I add to the excellent points of Edward and others here that the Lord, while most certainly NOT a vampire, said this
'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.' Leviticus 17:11
The first thing the Lord did after the fall in Eden was to kill an animal...for clothes, yes, but I think also to show the couple there exactly what the consequence of their action was, and would be.
It's all about the blood, for therein lies life! I can give you a great medical point on this, too, if anyone's interested.
~el
'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.' Leviticus 17:11
The first thing the Lord did after the fall in Eden was to kill an animal...for clothes, yes, but I think also to show the couple there exactly what the consequence of their action was, and would be.
It's all about the blood, for therein lies life! I can give you a great medical point on this, too, if anyone's interested.
~el