Galatian Conundrums

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
I see you apply your thoughts projected on to me as my beliefs. Hmm, maybe ask huh? Or maybe you are not trying to have an honest conversation?



No, Pater has a vision he did not understand, when the spirit revealed it's meaning he obeyed.



Agaist what law? I see you don't know the word as well as you project. There is no such law in the old testament. It is pharisee law, that all the disciples lived under their entire life. The same pharisee law Jesus spoke against... and yes old habits are hard to break, yet the bottom line is when Pater was prompted by the spirit he obeyed the spirit not man made customs. and yes Peter, just like every man is not perfect and did sin. This does not make him not a pillar, his name is on the foundation of the kingdom.



I see you must have been there to wittness the conversion of evey gentile... Hmm, I think Acts 15 talked about this... maybe they had certian restrictions because some gentiles did not have the fulness of the holy Spirit.... each person is a differnt case when it comes to how and when God changes them...

Also why did you not speak on the verses I posted that disproved your stance but rather made it about thought you projected on to me? Honestly and respectfully, I say it should not be like that if we are having an real conversation.
No, I am merely explaining to you why, in my opinion, you are not making sense if you read and understand Acts 10 literally, how the event all went down as recorded by Luke.

But if you don't agree and think you do, I am fine. Cheers.

By the way, since you ask me about what law, this was what Peter said in Acts 10

28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

29 Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?
 

FollowtheShepherd

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
794
312
63
No, I am merely explaining to you why, in my opinion, you are making sense if you read and understand Acts 10 literally, how the event all went down as recorded by Luke.

But if you don't agree and think you do, I am fine. Cheers.

By the way, since you ask me about what law, this was what Peter said in Acts 10

28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

29 Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?
By not addressing the verses I posted but insted telling me my own thoughts. OK.

SO then find the "law" spoken if from Acts 10:28 in the actual old testament law. You will not be able to because it does not exist. It is man made law. If it were a law Jesus would have sinned when talking to the samartian woman. Again it is man made law that ruled the nation of Israel in those days and still does till this very day
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
6,687
7,165
113
What do you believe the 2 gospels are?

Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad." So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
John 8:56‭-‬58 ESV
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
By not addressing the verses I posted but insted telling me my own thoughts. OK.

SO then find the "law" spoken if from Acts 10:28 in the actual old testament law. You will not be able to because it does not exist. It is man made law. If it were a law Jesus would have sinned when talking to the samartian woman. Again it is man made law that ruled the nation of Israel in those days and still does till this very day
If Peter quoted it and it was recorded in scripture, and Jesus told them that whatever they bound on earth will be bound in heaven, that is enough proof for me.

It is the same binding authority they used in Acts 15, to separate the gospel of the circumcision to the three of them, but the gospel of the uncircumcision to Paul.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113

FollowtheShepherd

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
794
312
63
If Peter quoted it and it was recorded in scripture, and Jesus told them that whatever they bound on earth will be bound in heaven, that is enough proof for me.
So men can make their own laws? wow.

SO then find the "law" spoken if from Acts 10:28 in the actual old testament law. You will not be able to because it does not exist. It is man made law.

It is the same binding authority they used in Acts 15, to separate the gospel of the circumcision to the three of them, but the gospel of the uncircumcision to Paul.
The holy spirit guided them t those basic rules to ebter a place of worship, all of them can be found in the old testament.


to separate the gospel of the circumcision to the three of them, but the gospel of the uncircumcision to Paul.
Dividing the spoils huh? I disagree.

1Timothy 2:7, "For this reason I was appointed to be an announcer, an apostle, and a faithful and true teacher of the gentiles. I am telling you the truth. I am not lying."

Galatians 2:7-8, “In fact, they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel for the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel for the circumcised. For the one who worked through Peter by making him an apostle to the circumcised also worked through me by sending me to the Gentiles.”

Peter sent to gentiles:

Acts 15:6-7, “So the apostles and the elders met to consider this statement. After a lengthy debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God chose me to be the one among you through whom the Gentiles would hear the message of the gospel and believe."

(Peter preaching to gentiles shown in Acts 10) and no none of them were only to Jews or even only to Israelites: All disciples sent to all people:

Matthew 28:19-20, " 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
 

Mii

Well-known member
Mar 23, 2019
2,059
1,320
113
Curious what your other problems with apologetics are, as it is something I am delving into. It can wait as I too don't want to derail the thread, but I'd like to pick your brain. Would you agree, for example, that our Lord is logical?

Wait now, I am not coming for you, just intrigued. Maybe some day we could pow wow about it in a thread. I'd like that.
If you start a thread or conversation I'll certainly expound. Yes I believe the Lord is. We have our limits though. So the utility of logic in a human mind is only part of the journey to calvary.

btw, I had to stop myself from a derail ;)
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
So men can make their own laws? wow.

SO then find the "law" spoken if from Acts 10:28 in the actual old testament law. You will not be able to because it does not exist. It is man made law.



The holy spirit guided them t those basic rules to ebter a place of worship, all of them can be found in the old testament.




Dividing the spoils huh? I disagree.

1Timothy 2:7, "For this reason I was appointed to be an announcer, an apostle, and a faithful and true teacher of the gentiles. I am telling you the truth. I am not lying."

Galatians 2:7-8, “In fact, they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel for the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel for the circumcised. For the one who worked through Peter by making him an apostle to the circumcised also worked through me by sending me to the Gentiles.”

Peter sent to gentiles:

Acts 15:6-7, “So the apostles and the elders met to consider this statement. After a lengthy debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God chose me to be the one among you through whom the Gentiles would hear the message of the gospel and believe."

(Peter preaching to gentiles shown in Acts 10) and no none of them were only to Jews or even only to Israelites: All disciples sent to all people:

Matthew 28:19-20, " 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
Your use of Galatians 2 has already contradicted your main point.

Peter visit to Cornelius was a one off event, for the purpose of him defending Paul gospel of grace to the Gentiles.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,645
13,120
113
Did God promise Abraham that God will send his son Jesus to die on the cross, be buried and will be raised from the dead to justify all those who believe in him in faith only, zero additional requirements required?

Likewise, did the 12 disciples, and Jesus himself, went around in Matthew to John preaching this same good news to all their Jewish listeners?
yes, Genesis 15.
yes, Luke 7.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,645
13,120
113
Is there a reason why you decline to quote v25 instead, since you are replying to my point?
is there a reason you didn't quote v.13 ? v. 25 is v. 13. a voluntary contrition.

the one who hears My words and does not put them into practice
is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation.
(Luke 6:49)

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life:
and they are they which testify of Me.
(John 5:39)
put John 5:39 into practice. the scriptures testify of one Lord & Christ, not two:

Abraham called that place The Lord Will Provide.
And to this day it is said, “On the mountain of the Lord it will be provided.”

(Genesis 22:14)
he dwelt at Mamre.

Etymology
From (1) מן (min), from,
and (2) the verb ראה (ra'a), to see or understand.
From the noun ממר (memer), bitterness.
From (1) מן (min), from,
and (2) the verb מרא (mara'), to be fat or well fed.



 

RickStudies

Active member
Sep 10, 2019
782
222
43
What do you believe the 2 gospels are?

Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad." So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
John 8:56‭-‬58 ESV
@ CharliRenee

Well, it`s too bad you missed the various posts that have the scripture and contention in them. They are lost now, obscured by all the meaningless attacks, accusations and redicule. It`s almost to tiresome to get into again. I would have prefered to talk to you in private but so far my experience here at the club hasn`t pursueded me to get subscription :LOL:

I`ll throw a few things on the board, maybe something sticks. Hopefully, you`ll see this post. 2 gospels is a useful term when I`m talking to people who know me and are friendly. I guess as a stranger it becomes this sinister sounding idea. I`ll never use it again to address people who aren`t used to me.

The 2 gospel concept is taken from Galatians 2:7. The word gospel appears 2 times in reference to 2 different apostles who led two different groups with 2 different ways of life.

The gospel message of Jesus and the disciples who picked up His torch is salvation of the world by the rise of Israel.

The gospel message of Paul is salvation of the world by the fall of Israel.

Lifestyle of the circumcision/Jews is law keeping. Jewish society was a theocacy and not going to repeat the various reasons for their law keeping at this time.

Lifestyle of uncircumcision/Gentiles + handful of Jews is release from the law as the church standard.

The book of Acts records this law keeping activity ( i.e. Acts 10, Acts 21.) Regardless of denials this is Biblical fact and it is a fact that has helped spawn the Hebrew Roots movement.

Question/ why would God allow this divergance?

Answer/ due to work of Satan on the earth it was necessary for God to keep His real plan a secret. Scripture below proves it if you can percieve it.

“Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,” (Romans 16:25)

“Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.” (1st Corinthians 2:6-10)

“How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.” (Ephesians 3:3-6)

“Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office.” (Romans 11: 7-13)
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
is there a reason you didn't quote v.13 ? v. 25 is v. 13. a voluntary contrition.

the one who hears My words and does not put them into practice
is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation.
(Luke 6:49)
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life:
and they are they which testify of Me.
(John 5:39)
put John 5:39 into practice. the scriptures testify of one Lord & Christ, not two:

Abraham called that place The Lord Will Provide.
And to this day it is said, “On the mountain of the Lord it will be provided.”
(Genesis 22:14)
he dwelt at Mamre.

Etymology
From (1) מן (min), from,
and (2) the verb ראה (ra'a), to see or understand.
From the noun ממר (memer), bitterness.
From (1) מן (min), from,
and (2) the verb מרא (mara'), to be fat or well fed.
So you are not replying to my point?

Never mind, debating with you has been unproductive before. This time it’s the same
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
yes, Genesis 15.
yes, Luke 7.
Let me give you another opportunity to show that you want a productive discussion.

Quote the scripture you are using above to support your yes. Explain how you are interpreting those verses
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,645
13,120
113
Never mind, debating with you has been unproductive before. This time it’s the same
Yup, because once again, I directly answer you, show you scripture, and instead of acknowledging it, with a vain air of smug superiority you say something meaningless and dismiss me.

You are right, this has happened, and continues to.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,645
13,120
113
Let me give you another opportunity to show that you want a productive discussion.

Quote the scripture you are using above to support your yes. Explain how you are interpreting those verses
I did quote them. That's too much text to copy paste into a reply. You are so wise? Find the gospel in those chapters. Search the Scriptures, because they testify of Christ. There is only one Christ, find Him. If your view is correct, and you really have understanding, it should be a simple thing for you to demonstrate from those two chapters that a different gospel than that of Christ given and risen is being portrayed.

I mean, according to you, you are the sage and I am the idiot, so why are you asking me to teach you? You already decided you won't hear me from the beginning. Fulfill your purpose then, teach us all of Him, starting from Moses and the prophets.
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
But during Luke 9:6?
Hey, look the Messiah is here and he is going to save us.

It is the same message, same gospel.
For the old testament, the Messiah is going to come save his people
When Jesus was here, the Messiah is here to save his people
New testament the Messiah was here and he saved his people. Oh and added bonus he is coming back to get us.
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
Thats not a good way to pursuede me.
If the truth of the Gospel can't persuade you, why is it anyone elses job to do so?
Even God's own word comes to you and you twist it into perversion, and then expect that it is incumbent upon a man to convince you. That's a laughable prospect.


Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.


Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
Jude 1:3‭-‬4‭, ‬24‭-‬25 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/jud.1.3-25.NASB
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
What do you believe the 2 gospels are?

Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad." So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
John 8:56‭-‬58 ESV
@ CharliRenee

Well, it`s too bad you missed the various posts that have the scripture and contention in them. They are lost now, obscured by all the meaningless attacks, accusations and redicule. It`s almost to tiresome to get into again. I would have prefered to talk to you in private but so far my experience here at the club hasn`t pursueded me to get subscription :LOL:

I`ll throw a few things on the board, maybe something sticks. Hopefully, you`ll see this post. 2 gospels is a useful term when I`m talking to people who know me and are friendly. I guess as a stranger it becomes this sinister sounding idea. I`ll never use it again to address people who aren`t used to me.

The 2 gospel concept is taken from Galatians 2:7. The word gospel appears 2 times in reference to 2 different apostles who led two different groups with 2 different ways of life.

The gospel message of Jesus and the disciples who picked up His torch is salvation of the world by the rise of Israel.

The gospel message of Paul is salvation of the world by the fall of Israel.

Lifestyle of the circumcision/Jews is law keeping. Jewish society was a theocacy and not going to repeat the various reasons for their law keeping at this time.

Lifestyle of uncircumcision/Gentiles + handful of Jews is release from the law as the church standard.

The book of Acts records this law keeping activity ( i.e. Acts 10, Acts 21.) Regardless of denials this is Biblical fact and it is a fact that has helped spawn the Hebrew Roots movement.

Question/ why would God allow this divergance?

Answer/ due to work of Satan on the earth it was necessary for God to keep His real plan a secret. Scripture below proves it if you can percieve it.

“Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,” (Romans 16:25)

“Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.” (1st Corinthians 2:6-10)

“How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.” (Ephesians 3:3-6)

“Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office.” (Romans 11: 7-13)
You see here is the disconnect, and why people get so frustrated.

As many have said, even myself, we believe that god sent two people to two groups with the same message, the message of grace.

But according to this poster, when we do this, we are...Well in his own words

Well, it`s too bad you missed the various posts that have the scripture and contention in them. They are lost now, obscured by all the meaningless attacks, accusations and ridicule.

Sadly we are getting many of these types,

Maybe you can explain to him what the 1 gospel is, he will not listen to others.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
I did quote them. That's too much text to copy paste into a reply. You are so wise? Find the gospel in those chapters. Search the Scriptures, because they testify of Christ. There is only one Christ, find Him. If your view is correct, and you really have understanding, it should be a simple thing for you to demonstrate from those two chapters that a different gospel than that of Christ given and risen is being portrayed.

I mean, according to you, you are the sage and I am the idiot, so why are you asking me to teach you? You already decided you won't hear me from the beginning. Fulfill your purpose then, teach us all of Him, starting from Moses and the prophets.
You are saying all those additional points, not me. But thanks for confirming to me your intentions. Cheers.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
Hey, look the Messiah is here and he is going to save us.

It is the same message, same gospel.
For the old testament, the Messiah is going to come save his people
When Jesus was here, the Messiah is here to save his people
New testament the Messiah was here and he saved his people. Oh and added bonus he is coming back to get us.
I was asking you a very simple question. Did peter preach the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus during the 4 gospels? It’s a simple yes or no question.