Genesis 3:16 Bible Old Testament. Surah 4:34 (Quran)
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i'm not sure i comprehend your meaning.
what do you take the meaning of this to be?
what do you take the meaning of this to be?
lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me.
And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
(2 Corinthians 12:7-10)
And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
(2 Corinthians 12:7-10)
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Yes I was being sarcastic, but it's based in truth from my point of view.
Your mincing words instead of looking for the Spirit of those words. This was also a sin of the Pharisees and something to guard against doing ourselves.
I do understand you believe this is what I'm doing myself however I have to disagree with you on this point.
In the end, we will simply have to agree to disagree...
Your mincing words instead of looking for the Spirit of those words. This was also a sin of the Pharisees and something to guard against doing ourselves.
I do understand you believe this is what I'm doing myself however I have to disagree with you on this point.
In the end, we will simply have to agree to disagree...
Christians do see chastisement as God teaching us important lessons we need to know.
God is our Father, and like any good Father He chastens those He loves. As it is written:
For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.” If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Hebrews 12:6-11
God is our Father, and like any good Father He chastens those He loves. As it is written:
For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.” If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Hebrews 12:6-11
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I don't know many rabbis but one and he emphasizes a Jewish veneration of their matriarchs such as those after the example of Miriam, Sarah, Rachel and Leah, among others, as much as their patriarchs. As a matter of fact, one of his teachings is of Noah missing God's instruction to disembark from the Ark (in order to embark on a new beginning after the purging) with his wife beside him rather than behind him. Read the account of how Noah boarded the ark before the flood, and God's instructions, I would go as far to say commandment even, read it carefully, and try not to dismiss (God's instructions word for word) for, what was is...
picking at scripture...?
oh yes, another teaching of this particular rabbi, the strange thing about hearing. It helps to close your eyes when listening since are liable to distort your perception. Our eyes images enter our eyes upside down and and its up to our brains to set it upright in our view.
picking at scripture...?
oh yes, another teaching of this particular rabbi, the strange thing about hearing. It helps to close your eyes when listening since are liable to distort your perception. Our eyes images enter our eyes upside down and and its up to our brains to set it upright in our view.
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I have read the entire discourse... my stance is unchangeable.
The agree to disagree part wasn't because I don't enjoy discussion, but when discussion devolves it does no one any good to continue on, leastwise our souls and anything Godly and good to be gained ends.
So I'm walking. Thanks for the conversation.
The agree to disagree part wasn't because I don't enjoy discussion, but when discussion devolves it does no one any good to continue on, leastwise our souls and anything Godly and good to be gained ends.
So I'm walking. Thanks for the conversation.
Because the first post asked..."How do Jews interpret, what Christians interpret as Genesis 3:16? "
That was my answer. Jews will probably interpret it the same as Christians.
However, there is a lot to understand about ancient Jewish rabbinical forms of interpretation of the Old Testament that can explain why their people were so dull to understand anything at the time of Christ.
They had taken the key of knowledge (the scriptures properly interpreted) and had added so much to it as to render is incomprehensible and unlivable.
Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered
But except for those that might have invented allegories and elaborate interpretations by counting the letters of the sentences in Gen 3:16 they probably would have interpreted it the same as Christians. That being said not many Christians seem to interpret it well using it as a source for why a woman should submit to a man rather than referencing it as consequences of the fall. Both Christians and Jews, and muslims use it to say that it teaches that God's plan was for women to be ruled by men. And that's a bad interpretation.
Teaching about the order of the family and marriage does not require using this text in a way that does not observe the negative nature of the man ruling over her was a result of the fall. That should be noticed when people read this and not ignored.
That was my answer. Jews will probably interpret it the same as Christians.
However, there is a lot to understand about ancient Jewish rabbinical forms of interpretation of the Old Testament that can explain why their people were so dull to understand anything at the time of Christ.
They had taken the key of knowledge (the scriptures properly interpreted) and had added so much to it as to render is incomprehensible and unlivable.
Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered
But except for those that might have invented allegories and elaborate interpretations by counting the letters of the sentences in Gen 3:16 they probably would have interpreted it the same as Christians. That being said not many Christians seem to interpret it well using it as a source for why a woman should submit to a man rather than referencing it as consequences of the fall. Both Christians and Jews, and muslims use it to say that it teaches that God's plan was for women to be ruled by men. And that's a bad interpretation.
Teaching about the order of the family and marriage does not require using this text in a way that does not observe the negative nature of the man ruling over her was a result of the fall. That should be noticed when people read this and not ignored.
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I have not said that the Old Testament does not apply. I have said that Jewish theology means nothing to Christians, since they reject Christ. It should not even be entering this discussion, since the rabbis held to many fables and false ideas. Christ rejected "the traditions of the elders" and Christians should do the same.
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Yes. That was a red herring to begin with, and I already told the poster that Jewish interpretations are irrelevant. Before the first advent of Christ, the Jewish rabbis had already built up a system of interpretation which went against what God had revealed. Therefore when Christ exposed their false teachings, the chief priests, scribes, Pharisees, and lawyers became enemies of Christ and plotted His demise. After 70 AD, Jewish rabbis doubled down on their false beliefs and enshrined them in the Talmud. So Christians have nothing to do with Jewish interpretations. They rejected their own true Messiah because of their own false beliefs, and Christ pronounced woes upon all of them.
well while we are not under the law or anything so absurd, i do think that in the first several centuries of organized Christianity it was a mistake to deliberately distance our faith from any and all things Jewish. the law testifies of Him, the feasts testify of Him. imagining things like Christmas ((likely Gabrielmas)) and Eostare instead of Pascha is to our detriment.
our God is the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob. Christ is the Messiah promised to the Jews.
so while it is true that their blindness to Him means we have something they do not see, it is also true that they have the contextual keys for us to understand Him correctly. we will be one people, in Him: He will not utterly forsake Ephraim, but through us, bring them again to Himself, and when He does that, He will not appear as a Gentile God, but the very same God of their very own fathers, who are our fathers in faith tho not by the flesh.
we have much to learn from Judaic thought - it is the heritage of our own faith, because to them were given the testimonies and the witness.
our God is the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob. Christ is the Messiah promised to the Jews.
so while it is true that their blindness to Him means we have something they do not see, it is also true that they have the contextual keys for us to understand Him correctly. we will be one people, in Him: He will not utterly forsake Ephraim, but through us, bring them again to Himself, and when He does that, He will not appear as a Gentile God, but the very same God of their very own fathers, who are our fathers in faith tho not by the flesh.
we have much to learn from Judaic thought - it is the heritage of our own faith, because to them were given the testimonies and the witness.
that has to be kept in mind but what also should be kept in mind is that virtually all the authors of scripture except Nebuchadnezzar are Jewish.
they write how Jews write and think how Jews think -- so isn't it germaine to properly comprehending God's word that we gain some kind of understanding of how Jewish theologians think and write? because when we look at the Bible we are reading a Jewish book, written by Jewish theologians, Jewish believers.
i just think blanketly rejecting all Israel as enemies and evil is wrong. it is not what God does: He preserves a remnant, and He does not cast off forever. His lovingkindness is everlasting, and His faithfulness endures from generation to generation. He will bless those who bless her, and curse those who curse her; He said so. so we should fear Him and have respect and forgiveness just as we were shown mercy which we likewise did not deserve.
what i am essentially saying is that i believe anti-semitism among Christians is incredibly evil. i am not accusing you of that, just cautioning against it, lest we be ensnared without seeing the trap our true enemy lays for us, and our true Father expects us to have the grace to overcome.
have mercy on the blind; rescue the needy
do not despise them in their wretchedness, but have compassion, and seek understanding so that the mercy given to us can flow also to them through us.
they write how Jews write and think how Jews think -- so isn't it germaine to properly comprehending God's word that we gain some kind of understanding of how Jewish theologians think and write? because when we look at the Bible we are reading a Jewish book, written by Jewish theologians, Jewish believers.
i just think blanketly rejecting all Israel as enemies and evil is wrong. it is not what God does: He preserves a remnant, and He does not cast off forever. His lovingkindness is everlasting, and His faithfulness endures from generation to generation. He will bless those who bless her, and curse those who curse her; He said so. so we should fear Him and have respect and forgiveness just as we were shown mercy which we likewise did not deserve.
what i am essentially saying is that i believe anti-semitism among Christians is incredibly evil. i am not accusing you of that, just cautioning against it, lest we be ensnared without seeing the trap our true enemy lays for us, and our true Father expects us to have the grace to overcome.
have mercy on the blind; rescue the needy
do not despise them in their wretchedness, but have compassion, and seek understanding so that the mercy given to us can flow also to them through us.
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that has to be kept in mind but what also should be kept in mind is that virtually all the authors of scripture except Nebuchadnezzar are Jewish.
they write how Jews write and think how Jews think -- so isn't it germaine to properly comprehending God's word that we gain some kind of understanding of how Jewish theologians think and write? because when we look at the Bible we are reading a Jewish book, written by Jewish theologians, Jewish believers.
i just think blanketly rejecting all Israel as enemies and evil is wrong. it is not what God does: He preserves a remnant, and He does not cast off forever. His lovingkindness is everlasting, and His faithfulness endures from generation to generation. He will bless those who bless her, and curse those who curse her; He said so. so we should fear Him and have respect and forgiveness just as we were shown mercy which we likewise did not deserve.
what i am essentially saying is that i believe anti-semitism among Christians is incredibly evil. i am not accusing you of that, just cautioning against it, lest we be ensnared without seeing the trap our true enemy lays for us, and our true Father expects us to have the grace to overcome.
have mercy on the blind; rescue the needy
do not despise them in their wretchedness, but have compassion, and seek understanding so that the mercy given to us can flow also to them through us.
they write how Jews write and think how Jews think -- so isn't it germaine to properly comprehending God's word that we gain some kind of understanding of how Jewish theologians think and write? because when we look at the Bible we are reading a Jewish book, written by Jewish theologians, Jewish believers.
i just think blanketly rejecting all Israel as enemies and evil is wrong. it is not what God does: He preserves a remnant, and He does not cast off forever. His lovingkindness is everlasting, and His faithfulness endures from generation to generation. He will bless those who bless her, and curse those who curse her; He said so. so we should fear Him and have respect and forgiveness just as we were shown mercy which we likewise did not deserve.
what i am essentially saying is that i believe anti-semitism among Christians is incredibly evil. i am not accusing you of that, just cautioning against it, lest we be ensnared without seeing the trap our true enemy lays for us, and our true Father expects us to have the grace to overcome.
have mercy on the blind; rescue the needy
do not despise them in their wretchedness, but have compassion, and seek understanding so that the mercy given to us can flow also to them through us.
Not all Israelis are so hard hearted,
History is so strikingly similar,
Hebrew Israelites Waiting for their Messiah，
Another group also Waiting for their Messiah，
Actually, Messiah already came for them.
Romans 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
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