God did away with some of His own sayings

[BenFTW]

If what you present is remotely true, which it isn't, then we do have the right to be disobedient and still be saved, selfishly taking advantage of God's grace, saying "give me" and not caring two hoots about who He really is, or what He wants for us because He loves us so much. Our obedience to all of God's word doesn't construct a salvation in Jesus Christ, it confirms it. Matthew 4:4 John 8:31

It's all about a relationship, by us knowing who God really is, and God knowing us on a personal level as a friend.

"Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity; for the Lord hath heard the voice of my weeping." Psalm 6:8

"By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the Lord men depart from evil." Proverbs 16:6

[SUP]"[/SUP]Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:20-23

That is the defining line between whether we really have the Holy Spirit or not. At the end, you will know. Just make sure it's before you go. AMEN

I didn't catch you answering the question directly, maybe indirectly. You, once again, seem to be saying that observance of the Law does not constitute salvation, but rather confirms it. Which is another way of saying that if you aren't observing the Law then your salvation is in question, or "Are you a true believer?" To me, that is a faulty line of thinking. Correct me if I am wrong in summarizing what you said.

You say what I presented isn't remotely true, do you not believe the fruit of the Spirit and renewing your mind to who we now are in Jesus Christ? To not believe those things to be remotely true, how then do you have victory over sin? Grace is the only means to not have sin dominate you, Law can't do that. Its even said in scripture that, "Sin shall not have dominion over you for you are not under Law but grace."

Your first sentence describing the fruit of such a belief in grace is completely inaccurate. How can someone be presented with the grace of God and think, "Sweet! I can be disobedient, not care what God wants for my life, and I don't even have to get to know Him. Just awesome!" Such a hypothetical is just that, hypothetical and is hardly if ever seen in reality. It just doesn't happen and it goes along the lines of people accusing grace preachers of licentiousness (license to sin). Sorry, but that is not a fruit of grace, it can't be. Grace sets us free from sin's dominion and it is God's goodness that leads men to repentance, and if they repented they obviously want to get to know their Savior. So the fruit of such a belief I have defined cannot and will not have the fruit of what you described.

So, to get back to the question, can you answer it more forthright? Is it God's grace and revelation of who we are in Jesus that "effects our actions in the correct way" or is it observance to the Law that does this?

 

[BarlyGurl]

Grace= God's unmerited favor.
GRACE is not a magic coating. It is God's gift to us to APPROPRIATE being born again.
Renewing the mind... is also not a MAGIC THING that happens when we are born again... we are TOLD to renew our minds... which INCLUDES repentance.
Repentance is not a single action but a REPETIITVE one where we CONTINUE to discover what GOD says about any given subject pertaining to life through study of the scriptures and then choose to AGREE with what God says. It is very simple, I thought abortion was a woman's choice before BA... AFTER BA the spirit showed me thru the WORD that that was wrong and I REPENTED (renounced) my wrong/sinful thoughts and agreed with God on the matter.
A good way to RETARD spiritual growth is by FAILING to repent... without repentance... you never RENOUNCE the wrong/sinful thinking/idea/atitude/action...merely shove it to the back of the "filing cabinet".... where it will SURFACE AGAIN... because it was never renounced thus never REMOVED/CLEANSED from the individual.

 

[just-me]

I didn't catch you answering the question directly, maybe indirectly. You, once again, seem to be saying that observance of the Law does not constitute salvation, but rather confirms it. Which is another way of saying that if you aren't observing the Law then your salvation is in question, or "Are you a true believer?" To me, that is a faulty line of thinking. Correct me if I am wrong in summarizing what you said.

You are right in what I presented. Purposeful disobedience of God's spoken words (from the heart) confirm being unloving toward God which is the breaking of the most important commandment Jesus admonished us to observe. If you aren't disciplined by the word of God while purposefully rejecting some of God's words for instruction in righteousness, salvation doesn't exist in your life.

"For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth." Hebrews 12:6

If you are truly saved and purposefully rejecting any part of God's words (which is highly unlikely) you will suffer chastisement for your disobedience. "You" being arbitrary. Those that don’t obey God and are willful sinners would have been better off if they had been in ignorance to their sin but when they have the Holy Spirit telling them their sin is wrong they are even more guilty for not repenting according to His leading through His spoken words to us. This is what it means to be willful. A willful sinner intentionally sins and doesn’t repent or keeps repeating the same sin in blatant disregard for God, and His spoken word. Purposeful rejection of any enlightenment that comes from God's word is willful sin.

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," Hebrews 10:26

 

[just-me]

You say what I presented isn't remotely true, do you not believe the fruit of the Spirit and renewing your mind to who we now are in Jesus Christ? To not believe those things to be remotely true, how then do you have victory over sin? Grace is the only means to not have sin dominate you, Law can't do that. Its even said in scripture that, "Sin shall not have dominion over you for you are not under Law but grace."

The fruit of the Spirit doesn't exist if all of God's spoken words are not deemed as relevant to an individual, even if they only know a small part, depending on their spiritual maturity. After all, the "fruit of the spirit" is defined first, with 13 different references in the Old Testament. Esteeming the word of God as righteous doesn't reposition the law for us, it repositions us in relation to the law.

"Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up." James 4:10

In reference to your quote in Romans, the next verse needs to be involved also. "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid."

Again, willful sin is the purposeful rejection of even some of God's spoken words. God gives grace, which is true. The same God gave us His Word. How can God's words then be against His own graceful character. It's impossible to rationalize this falsehood.

 

[just-me]

Your first sentence describing the fruit of such a belief in grace is completely inaccurate. How can someone be presented with the grace of God and think, "Sweet! I can be disobedient, not care what God wants for my life, and I don't even have to get to know Him. Just awesome!" Such a hypothetical is just that, hypothetical and is hardly if ever seen in reality. It just doesn't happen and it goes along the lines of people accusing grace preachers of licentiousness (license to sin). Sorry, but that is not a fruit of grace, it can't be. Grace sets us free from sin's dominion and it is God's goodness that leads men to repentance, and if they repented they obviously want to get to know their Savior. So the fruit of such a belief I have defined cannot and will not have the fruit of what you described.

It's good we agree on this point.

So, to get back to the question, can you answer it more forthright? Is it God's grace and revelation of who we are in Jesus that "effects our actions in the correct way" or is it observance to the Law that does this?

Again, there is no separation of characteristics between the law, God, Jesus, grace, mercy, forgiveness, judgment, love, and peace. All those attributes are in the same name. The character of Christ is the exact same as the Almighty God who manifest all of these things as ONE. If we separate these things into our own categories, according to our own wishful thinking, then we are calling God a hypocrite for being wishy washy and disconnected. One cannot separate God's given words (none of them) from the same God that gives grace for the grace of God, and the law of God are inseparable, for He is perfect. Everything from God is forever connected in ONE.

 

[just-me]

Grace= God's unmerited favor.
GRACE is not a magic coating. It is God's gift to us to APPROPRIATE being born again.
Renewing the mind... is also not a MAGIC THING that happens when we are born again... we are TOLD to renew our minds... which INCLUDES repentance.
Repentance is not a single action but a REPETIITVE one where we CONTINUE to discover what GOD says about any given subject pertaining to life through study of the scriptures and then choose to AGREE with what God says. It is very simple, I thought abortion was a woman's choice before BA... AFTER BA the spirit showed me thru the WORD that that was wrong and I REPENTED (renounced) my wrong/sinful thoughts and agreed with God on the matter.
A good way to RETARD spiritual growth is by FAILING to repent... without repentance... you never RENOUNCE the wrong/sinful thinking/idea/atitude/action...merely shove it to the back of the "filing cabinet".... where it will SURFACE AGAIN... because it was never renounced thus never REMOVED/CLEANSED from the individual.

Now that is the life of a true believer IMO, taking as much scripture into context of what I understand at this point. If all scripture doesn't seem to match with anything else that has been given, it's not God that changed the format, it's because we aren't getting it right. God doesn't need to issue a "plan B," because He's perfect. That's the way it always has been and always will be.

"But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen." 2 Peter 3:18

 

[just-me]

To all that are reading this thread. False doctrines that claim that certain parts of God's words no longer apply because of grace clearly has rendered the church as very ineffective in their ministry. Ignorance to the truth is the result.

“All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.” Isaiah 53:6

“O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps. O Lord, correct me, but with judgment; not in thine anger, lest thou bring me to nothing.” (Jeremiah 10:23-24)

“Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?” (Ezekiel 33:11)

“I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” (1 Timothy 2:1-4)

Terrible times are coming. Man has not yet learned the overarching lesson of history: HE CANNOT DIRECT HIS OWN STEPS!

 

[BenFTW]

It's good we agree on this point.



Again, there is no separation of characteristics between the law, God, Jesus, grace, mercy, forgiveness, judgment, love, and peace. All those attributes are in the same name. The character of Christ is the exact same as the Almighty God who manifest all of these things as ONE. If we separate these things into our own categories, according to our own wishful thinking, then we are calling God a hypocrite for being wishy washy and disconnected. One cannot separate God's given words (none of them) from the same God that gives grace for the grace of God, and the law of God are inseparable, for He is perfect. Everything from God is forever connected in ONE.

I disagree entirely. The Law and the new covenant are at polar opposites. One is work and another rest. They are polarities. On and off, light and darkness, hot and cold, and imputed righteousness and self-righteousness. There are things said in the Law that do not and cannot fit in the new. For example, forgive others or the Father won't forgive you. This is an old testament principle. In the new it states we forgive others as the Lord has forgiven us. We come from a place of forgiveness not doing something to be in that place of forgiveness.

Law and grace are not to be combined, this is what is known as mixture. We can call it lukewarm. Hot and cold and combing the two is lukewarm. Hot can be grace and cold can be Law, and the combining of the two as Jesus says would cause him to spew one out for being lukewarm (Revelations 3:16). It says he would rather people be hot or cold. Why is that? Well at the very least if they are cold, under Law, they can still come to an end of themselves and see Jesus Christ as their savior (hot). Now, whether this is what Jesus is referring to in context I am not sure, but it makes for a good analogy of the polarities of Law (cold) and grace (hot) and how the combining of the two leads to mixture (lukewarm). Which of course would make void both the Law and grace, for to combine them would nullify them.

I don't say this in ignorance to your point of course, that God's character is revealed in the OT and its not like the NT changed His character in any way as if to say thats what He was and is now something else. Of course not. However, He was under covenant with Israel to bless them for obedience and curse them for disobedience. He took no pleasure in punishing them or throwing curse upon them. He would that they chose life, He said this to them. Choose life! But under the covenant He had to keep His word, as unfortunate as it may have been. Israel chose this, may I remind you, they put the Law upon themselves. What we can gather however from God in the OT is that He is faithful to His covenants and His word. Therefore being under the new covenant of grace, we know He is faithful to the finished work of Jesus Christ and that our salvation lies not in our conduct but in the grace of God by faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[BarlyGurl]

Except that you are ENTIRELY looking at the OT from a carnal perspective and NOT from the spiritual view you SHOULD have as a born again believer.

 

[just-me]

I disagree entirely. The Law and the new covenant are at polar opposites. One is work and another rest. They are polarities. On and off, light and darkness, hot and cold, and imputed righteousness and self-righteousness. There are things said in the Law that do not and cannot fit in the new. For example, forgive others or the Father won't forgive you. This is an old testament principle. In the new it states we forgive others as the Lord has forgiven us. We come from a place of forgiveness not doing something to be in that place of forgiveness.

Law and grace are not to be combined, this is what is known as mixture. We can call it lukewarm. Hot and cold and combing the two is lukewarm. Hot can be grace and cold can be Law, and the combining of the two as Jesus says would cause him to spew one out for being lukewarm (Revelations 3:16). It says he would rather people be hot or cold. Why is that? Well at the very least if they are cold, under Law, they can still come to an end of themselves and see Jesus Christ as their savior (hot). Now, whether this is what Jesus is referring to in context I am not sure, but it makes for a good analogy of the polarities of Law (cold) and grace (hot) and how the combining of the two leads to mixture (lukewarm). Which of course would make void both the Law and grace, for to combine them would nullify them.

I don't say this in ignorance to your point of course, that God's character is revealed in the OT and its not like the NT changed His character in any way as if to say thats what He was and is now something else. Of course not. However, He was under covenant with Israel to bless them for obedience and curse them for disobedience. He took no pleasure in punishing them or throwing curse upon them. He would that they chose life, He said this to them. Choose life! But under the covenant He had to keep His word, as unfortunate as it may have been. Israel chose this, may I remind you, they put the Law upon themselves. What we can gather however from God in the OT is that He is faithful to His covenants and His word. Therefore being under the new covenant of grace, we know He is faithful to the finished work of Jesus Christ and that our salvation lies not in our conduct but in the grace of God by faith in Jesus Christ.

You will know one day that I told the truth. God doesn't change, and neither does Jesus. How can Jesus' representation be polar opposites from His own Father? Have you ever thought that Jesus being the Creator of all things actually gave Israel the law? Disconnecting the attributes of God Himself and from Jesus is clearly taking the Lord's name in vain. Law versus grace is a clear cut oxymoron. That's the same as saying Jesus versus His own Father. Would the world be in better shape if the church would have taught that law? Why do you think we are totally falling apart today? The reason is clear if we kick in the brain. Do you actually think it isn't graceful to minister God's government for the sake of peace? I would say so, and that is graceful. God has always want the best for us whether saved or unsaved. Your doctrine shows a complete failure to society. That isn't love.
John 8:28

Hebrews 13:8

Colossians 1:17

Malachi 3:6

I rest....

 

[BenFTW]

Except that you are ENTIRELY looking at the OT from a carnal perspective and NOT from the spiritual view you SHOULD have as a born again believer.

Oh gosh, is this the new insult thrown at people who are not as enlightened as you? *face palm*

 

[BarlyGurl]

Oh gosh, is this the new insult thrown at people who are not as enlightened as you? *face palm*

No... it is not an insult... it is an OBSERVATION... but since you have already DECIDED OTHERWISE...<shrugs>

 

[KennethC]

I disagree entirely. The Law and the new covenant are at polar opposites. One is work and another rest. They are polarities. On and off, light and darkness, hot and cold, and imputed righteousness and self-righteousness. There are things said in the Law that do not and cannot fit in the new. For example, forgive others or the Father won't forgive you. This is an old testament principle. In the new it states we forgive others as the Lord has forgiven us. We come from a place of forgiveness not doing something to be in that place of forgiveness.

Law and grace are not to be combined, this is what is known as mixture. We can call it lukewarm. Hot and cold and combing the two is lukewarm. Hot can be grace and cold can be Law, and the combining of the two as Jesus says would cause him to spew one out for being lukewarm (Revelations 3:16). It says he would rather people be hot or cold. Why is that? Well at the very least if they are cold, under Law, they can still come to an end of themselves and see Jesus Christ as their savior (hot). Now, whether this is what Jesus is referring to in context I am not sure, but it makes for a good analogy of the polarities of Law (cold) and grace (hot) and how the combining of the two leads to mixture (lukewarm). Which of course would make void both the Law and grace, for to combine them would nullify them.

I don't say this in ignorance to your point of course, that God's character is revealed in the OT and its not like the NT changed His character in any way as if to say thats what He was and is now something else. Of course not. However, He was under covenant with Israel to bless them for obedience and curse them for disobedience. He took no pleasure in punishing them or throwing curse upon them. He would that they chose life, He said this to them. Choose life! But under the covenant He had to keep His word, as unfortunate as it may have been. Israel chose this, may I remind you, they put the Law upon themselves. What we can gather however from God in the OT is that He is faithful to His covenants and His word. Therefore being under the new covenant of grace, we know He is faithful to the finished work of Jesus Christ and that our salvation lies not in our conduct but in the grace of God by faith in Jesus Christ.

I am not an advocate for keeping the physical ordinances of the written law, as no believer in Christ should be.

But by stating things like, lies not in our conduct, then that is saying a person can walk or act however they want and still be saved.

If conduct doesn't matter how come the bible emphasizes the importance of obedience ???

If conduct doesn't matter how come the bible emphasizes the warning of disobedience ???

You can not separate how one walks in the faith from the faith itself for salvation, or else you could make a person with at dead faith (false profession) saved !!!

 

[BenFTW]

You will know one day that I told the truth. God doesn't change, and neither does Jesus. How can Jesus' representation be polar opposites from His own Father? Have you ever thought that Jesus being the Creator of all things actually gave Israel the law? Disconnecting the attributes of God Himself and from Jesus is clearly taking the Lord's name in vain. Law versus grace is a clear cut oxymoron. That's the same as saying Jesus versus His own Father. Would the world be in better shape if the church would have taught that law? Why do you think we are totally falling apart today? The reason is clear if we kick in the brain. Do you actually think it isn't graceful to minister God's government for the sake of peace? I would say so, and that is graceful. God has always want the best for us whether saved or unsaved. Your doctrine shows a complete failure to society. That isn't love.
John 8:28

Hebrews 13:8

Colossians 1:17

Malachi 3:6

I rest....

I am not sure you understood my point. I in no way stated the Law as not holy, just, and good. I however do state its incapability to make you or me, and anyone reading this thread so. I am not just looking at the law carnally, and to look at it spiritually is to see Jesus within, being revealed as the coming Messiah. You jump to conclusions, as does BarlyGurl, to the detriment of clarity. Why not present it as a question as I do to you, so as to further understand the other person's perspective?

Grace and Law are not different in terms of morality as if God's morals are subjective (they are not), however the means to our righteousness is not found in what we do but in who we reside. Who do we reside in? Jesus Christ. Imputed righteousness, righteousness by faith. This is not to say our conduct is to be licentious and sinful, as such is not the result of the grace of God and being born-again. We are grafted to the tree and bear its fruit.

I do, however, take disagreement with any insinuation as to say that everything Jesus said applies to someone under grace. Yes, even considering the spiritual aspect this cannot be the case. Not in terms of morality, but in terms of how forgiveness is attributed to us. You, and I, must look at the OT through the lens of the cross, through the finished work of Jesus. The morality of the OT is not put into question, for to do so would question God's morality and justice. My disagreement however is in your application of the Law to the NT believer as a means to sanctification, when it is has no power to do so. Yes, its principles are edifying to live by, but it has no power to make you live by them nor are we under obligation to live by old covenant Law ceremonially (such as not eating pork). We fulfill the Law by love, and love is a fruit of the Holy Spirit interestingly enough. This points to a rest and not a striving.

 

[KennethC]

I am not sure you understood my point. I in no way stated the Law as not holy, just, and good. I however do state its incapability to make you or me, and anyone reading this thread so. I am not just looking at the law carnally, and to look at it spiritually is to see Jesus within, being revealed as the coming Messiah. You jump to conclusions, as does BarlyGurl, to the detriment of clarity. Why not present it as a question as I do to you, so as to further understand the other person's perspective?

Grace and Law are not different in terms of morality as if God's morals are subjective (they are not), however the means to our righteousness is not found in what we do but in who we reside. Who do we reside in? Jesus Christ. Imputed righteousness, righteousness by faith. This is not to say our conduct is to be licentious and sinful, as such is not the result of the grace of God and being born-again. We are grafted to the tree and bear its fruit.

I do, however, take disagreement with any insinuation as to say that everything Jesus said applies to someone under grace. Yes, even considering the spiritual aspect this cannot be the case. Not in terms of morality, but in terms of how forgiveness is attributed to us. You, and I, must look at the OT through the lens of the cross, through the finished work of Jesus. The morality of the OT is not put into question, for to do so would question God's morality and justice. My disagreement however is in your application of the Law to the NT believer as a means to sanctification, when it is has no power to do so. Yes, its principles are edifying to live by, but it has no power to make you live by them nor are we under obligation to live by old covenant Law ceremonially (such as not eating pork). We fulfill the Law by love, and love is a fruit of the Holy Spirit interestingly enough. This points to a rest and not a striving.

And there then leads to the question you keep avoiding, that if you believe what you said that I underlined, bold, and enlarged;

Then how can you account for the fact the Apostles in the epistles confirmed, expounded, and taught everything the Lord said to Gentile believers ???

Not to mention by saying that you do away with His final command in Matthew 28:19-20, why do you do away with the great commission ???

 

[BarlyGurl]

Just-me, question.... Have you ever said or suggested we shouldn't eat PORK???

 

[BenFTW]

And there then leads to the question you keep avoiding, that if you believe what you said that I underlined, bold, and enlarged;

Then how can you account for the fact the Apostles in the epistles confirmed, expounded, and taught everything the Lord said to Gentile believers ???

Not to mention by saying that you do away with His final command in Matthew 28:19-20, why do you do away with the great commission ???

Show me post-cross, after Jesus' ascension and resurrection, where any of the books of the bible state that we have to forgive someone or else the Lord won't forgive us. You can't find it. You can try but let me save you some time.

Ephesians 4:32King James Version (KJV)

32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

What do you clearly see being said here? Why do we forgive others? "Even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you", does this not mean that we are already forgiven? Of course it does. So in terms of forgiving others, we are coming from a position of forgiveness, having experienced it and therefore do it unto others as to not do so would be hypocritical. The point, however, is that we have forgiveness and we do not forgive others to obtain it. It is currently in our possession.

 

[crossnote]

Jesus said, "If your eye offends you pluck it out"...any takers? Or are we gonna pick and choose or spiritualized His Words?
Of course we are not perfect so our eye offends;we are under grace...no need to pluck, He changes hearts.

 

[just-me]

Just-me, question.... Have you ever said or suggested we shouldn't eat PORK???

Not really. I will quote a post that I made about that.

The split hooves of pigs are good, but not good enough because of not having a cud as a clean animal has. The split hoof represents direction or motivation such as what is on a clean beast such as a sheep, goats, cows, oxen etc. Because pigs eat garbage along with foliage, they are spiritually consuming what we know as the “doctrine of Balaam.” (Compromising the truth with paganism in short)

Now pigs do not have a cud to properly digest their intake such as a clean animal. Therefore they are likened unto one that cannot comprehend, and totally digest their intake. Concerning ourselves, we are to properly digest the manna from heaven, because all good gifts come from above. This is likened unto a “cud,” milling the truth over and over until we get it right. We are not to ascribe to the way of a pig. Therefore, spiritually we are not to consume those false attributes found in this parable of a pig. This is New covenant truth.

 

[BarlyGurl]

Um... there seems to be a CHASM here between understanding REPENTING AND receiving FORGIVENESS of past sins and the present faith conduct to be forgiving toward others... which IS NOT REALLY FOR THEM... IT IS FOR US.

It is both an act of LOVE toward Christ AND an act of OBEDIENCE to the word.

Seriously... WHO SUFFERS when there is no forgiveness???? Is it the OFFENDER????.... <emphatically NO!>