God loves the sinner and hates the sin.

[Jason0047]

sigh.

okay, i can go with you on the idea of 'conditional immortality' in a way.

but it ain't conditioned on our performance.

it's conditioned on Christ's perfect performance for us.

that's the Gospel, Jason. it's not about us and what we do.
it's a gift of Righteousness we receive from God.

we obey, and that's important, but it is not what gets us into or keeps us in God's Kingdom.

ps--if you aren't sealed with the Holy Spirit (God's mark) you have the other one.
just that simple.

One did not do nothing when they came into Christ. Surely one cannot continue to do nothing, either. Salvation is not a one time event that happens to us. Salvation is something that lives in us. Salvation is a person named Jesus Christ. If that person lives in an individual, then surely the Lord will do good works in their life. Not the individual, but.... Christ.

 

[psychomom]

One did not do nothing when they came into Christ.

actually, one did.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Surely one cannot continue to do nothing, either.

who said do nothing? i don't adhere to 'let go and let God'.
it's trust God and get going. we do the works He prepared before for other people
because we love Him and are thankful.

Salvation is not a one time event that happens to us. Salvation is something that lives in us. Salvation is a person named Jesus Christ. If that person lives in an individual, then surely the Lord will do good works in their life. Not the individual, but.... Christ.

you seem to be all over the map here.
salvation is absolutely a one time event.
we don't, er, drift in and out of it.

again, i beseech you to get to a church. one that preaches the true Gospel.

 

[kennethcadwell]

The unregenerate has absolutely no free-will whatsoever in spiritual matters. This is not a false teaching but a true teaching of Apostle Paul. If you want to argue with him about that: Your choice. And certainly not a wise one.

The choice to serve and follow Christ comes after a person is regenerated. Not before that.

Are you sure you have chosen Christ?

I am not arguing with the Apostle Paul at all for he himself is the one who constantly warned believers on how they can and can not walk.

Your statement is completely false here because our faith comes by hearing the word, not from being born again......
Paul clearly states this in Romans 10:17 from there obedience is established through love, but as Jesus said one is still not saved and have salvation before they repent of their sins. For He says if repentance is not made that person will still perish.
Lord Jesus also says that if you do not forgive others He will not forgive you, which means no remission of sins received by Him and equals no salvation.
Lord Jesus also said you have to confess Him before others or He will deny you before the Father, and only those who do the will of God in their lives will get eternal life. He says lazy disobedient servants will be cast away and burned, and that it would have been better for them if they never knew Him because their punishment would be less.

The bible is very clear a person does not have eternal life coming to them if their actions do not reflect the faith in Christ.
Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, and John all clearly teach this and Paul's warnings all throughout his epistles are to believers not unbelievers............

 

[seed_time_harvest]

If you expect me to argue, then you are out of lick. Jason is a notorious scripture twister and im not in the mood to argue with someone willing to falsify scripture to support their pseudo-universalist unitarian beliefs.

He's probably not doing it knowing it's not true but it is still misleading to some people.

 

[atwhatcost]

Yup...I tell my kids all the time....if your rooms aren't clean...you don't have straight A's in school and if you eveen get mouthy with me.... I don't love you anymore and I'm sending you to china to be an organ donor.

My older brother would pack. Honest. He's that child ever parent fears. lol

 

[atwhatcost]

What gets me is why people want to spend so much time verbal jockeying on whether or not Adam and Eve had belly buttons and so therefore its a sin to have a bellybutton ring because we weren't originally made that way. Lol

Well, if God wanted us to fly, we wouldn't need planes either. (I had a grandmother who used to say that, until she found out it was a 14 hour drive now to our house. Suddenly God wanted us to use planes. lol)

 

[atwhatcost]

My wife had one before we got married. I told her I didn't really like em and so she took it out. Hows that for submission? Lol

I hate to burst you bubble, but most the times hubby tells me he likes or dislikes something I wear or something I do to my hair, I continue to do it only because he likes it and it seems to me he gets first dibs on seeing me anyway. Not so much submitting. He doesn't really insist on any of it.

 

[Jason0047]

actually, one did.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.




who said do nothing? i don't adhere to 'let go and let God'.
it's trust God and get going. we do the works He prepared before for other people
because we love Him and are thankful.



you seem to be all over the map here.
salvation is absolutely a one time event.
we don't, er, drift in and out of it.

again, i beseech you to get to a church. one that preaches the true Gospel.

When you quote John chapter 1, you also have to keep reading. In John 3:20 it says, "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

As for falling away: The Scriptures say, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," (Hebrews 10:26). Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. (Hebrews 10:38).

 

[tribesman]

Jason, I re-post this in case you per chance missed this. My reply below to your post above. I would like your input regarding this. Ty.

While I believe God gets angry at the sinner, I do not believe God actually hates them. How could He? He created them. Does it make logical sense to hate that which you create? God angry? Yes. They have a free will choice to do good. But to sit there and smash your train set you just built and scream "I hate you Mr Choo Choo train!" is not exactly the concept of God that I see. God is love. One needs to first understand that before even reading your Bible.

Maybe you think of hatred as something that american so called "hate groups" are propagating. God's hatred is not of such nature. God's wrath (hatred, anger) is holy, real and revealed from heaven "against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness" (Rom.1:18). Or as it is written:

Psalm 5

[5] The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

You see here? Not only iniquity in and by itself but the men who work such. Take notice that the reprobates who will not repent and believe the gospel, the wrath (not love) of God abideth, remains, on such souls.

John.3

[36] He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him

There are several more scriptures which indicates that God indeed does have hatred against men, against real people. What is counted among the things which God hates are "A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren" (Prov.6:17-19). Body parts! Those things spoken of here are all seated on the bodies of men!

So it appears that God's hatred is not just against sin itself, it is also against impenitent and proud sinners. Sinners who are condemned to soul and body to destruction in hell, by God. Let noone therefore be drifted away into sophistry (such as "God loves the sinner and hates the sin") but rather keep on with what the word of God says about the matter even if they have a hard time of understanding it and it does not seem to "make sense" to their own understanding.

 

[psychomom]

When you quote John chapter 1, you also have to keep reading. In John 3:20 it says, "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

As for falling away: The Scriptures say, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," (Hebrews 10:26). Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. (Hebrews 10:38).

what does it mean to you to 'come into the Light'?

 

[SarahM777]

When you quote John chapter 1, you also have to keep reading. In John 3:20 it says, "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

As for falling away: The Scriptures say, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," (Hebrews 10:26). Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. (Hebrews 10:38).

Ripping verses again I see.

John 3

[SUP]16 [/SUP]For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. [SUP]19 [/SUP]This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. [SUP]21 [/SUP]But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

Hebrews 10

The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. [SUP]3 [/SUP]But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. [SUP]4 [/SUP]It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, my God.’”[SUP][a][/SUP]

[SUP]8 [/SUP]First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. [SUP]12 [/SUP]But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, [SUP]13 [/SUP]and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. [SUP]14[/SUP]For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP]

[SUP]17[/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[SUP][c][/SUP]

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.



[SUP]19 [/SUP]Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, [SUP]20 [/SUP]by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, [SUP]21 [/SUP]and since we have a great priest over the house of God, [SUP]22 [/SUP]let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, [SUP]25 [/SUP]not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

[SUP]26 [/SUP]If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, [SUP]27 [/SUP]but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. [SUP]29 [/SUP]How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? [SUP]30 [/SUP]For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[SUP][d][/SUP] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[SUP][e][/SUP] [SUP]31 [/SUP]It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

[SUP]32 [/SUP]Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you endured in a great conflict full of suffering. [SUP]33 [/SUP]Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. [SUP]34 [/SUP]You suffered along with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. [SUP]35 [/SUP]So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. [SUP]37 [/SUP]For,
“In just a little while,
he who is coming will come
and will not delay.”[SUP][f][/SUP]

[SUP]38 [/SUP]And,
“But my righteous[SUP][g][/SUP] one will live by faith.
And I take no pleasure
in the one who shrinks back.”[SUP][h][/SUP]


[SUP]39 [/SUP]But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

 

[SarahM777]

When you quote John chapter 1, you also have to keep reading. In John 3:20 it says, "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

As for falling away: The Scriptures say, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," (Hebrews 10:26). Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. (Hebrews 10:38).

And need I remind you that you JUST GOT THROUGH accusing pyschomom of doing the very same thing that YOU ALSO DID. That makes you a HYPOCRITE when you do the VERY SAME THING you accuse someone else of doing.

 

[Tankman131]

And need I remind you that you JUST GOT THROUGH accusing pyschomom of doing the very same thing that YOU ALSO DID. That makes you a HYPOCRITE when you do the VERY SAME THING you accuse someone else of doing.

*in scooby doo voice* RUH ROH! According to Jason he just stopped being saved.

 

[SolidGround]

Do we need an example of God hating the sinner?
Jacob have I loved, Esau....

God is Love.
Love is for those loved.
Not all are loved.
Those loved know the Lover.
This is how His Sheep know the Shepherd.
But not all are His Sheep.

God is not a respecter of persons, but He does pick His own... It's just not based on the traits or deeds of the person, but by His own Plan, Purpose, and Will.

 

[GuessWho]

Do we need an example of God hating the sinner?
Jacob have I loved, Esau....

That is not an example of God hating the sinner. It is rather an example of God selecting people on basis that are unknown for us. God does not justify in front of us why He chose Jacob, Moses, Abel's offer, Paul (the jews, as His chosen people) etc. etc.

 

[SolidGround]

That is not an example of God hating the sinner. It is rather an example of God selecting people on basis that are unknown for us. God does not justify in front of us why He chose Jacob, Moses, Abel's offer, Paul (the jews, as His chosen people) etc. etc.

I think it is both.
But I fully agree with what you are saying.

 

[Tankman131]

That is not an example of God hating the sinner. It is rather an example of God selecting people on basis that are unknown for us. God does not justify in front of us why He chose Jacob, Moses, Abel's offer, Paul (the jews, as His chosen people) etc. etc.

How bout these?

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]That's NOT in the Bible! "Hate the sin; love the sinner"


And the origin of the phrase goes to - St. Augustine and Gandhi - it’s a bookend tie! The phrase itself as we know it came directly from Gandhi’s 1929 autobiography. However, in Augustine’s letter 211, written around 424, is the phrase,



... Hating the sin while claiming to love the sinner gives us an opportunity to place more emphasis on the shortcomings of others rather than ourselves. In Matthew 7, Jesus told us to judge not, lest we should be judged. Concerning sin, he told us not to fuss about the speck of sawdust in our brother or sister’s eye when we’re blinded by a 2x4 plank in our own eye. Or, in John 8, a group of people point out to Jesus a woman who had been caught in adultery and remind him that the law teaches she should be stoned to death, and they want his response, and he says, “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone” (John 8:7).

In other words, it is quite inappropriate for us to go around pointing out the faults, shortcomings, failures, and weaknesses of others when we still have so many of our own. “Hate the sin; love the sinner” fails to meet this test because it focuses not on our own sin, but on that of someone else. The Scriptures clearly teach that “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:32), but the caution for Christians is to remember that this applies to us on the inside as well as those we perceive to be on the outside, and perhaps we who live in stained-glass houses should think twice before we start throwing stones.

https://carm.org/does-god-hate-anyone

God is love (1 John 4:8), but God also punishes the sinner and hates all who do iniquity. God is not one sided. He is not simply an infinitely loving God. He is also infinitely just. He must deal with sin. He must punish the sinner.
In the truth of God's word, we find that the Lord has provided one way by which we may be saved. That single way is through Jesus' sacrifice. For all who trust in Him, salvation will come. But to those who turn away, God's wrath abides upon them: "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him," (John 3:36).
Does God hate anyone?

Does God hate anyone? The answer is yes.

[/FONT]

• [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"[/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."[/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."[/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven whichare an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."[/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels."[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]

Are we to love the sinner but hate the sin?

Even as Christians, we cannot love perfectly, nor can we hate perfectly (i.e., without malice). But God can do both of these perfectly, because He is God. God can hate without any sinful intent. Therefore, He can hate the sin and the sinner in a perfectly holy way and still lovingly forgive the sinner at the moment of repentance and faith (Malachi 1:3; Revelation 2:6; 2 Peter 3:9).

Read more: Are we to love the sinner but hate the sin?

Do you love us enough to hear our heart?
10. Avoid hate the sin, love the sinner rhetoric


Now take a minute to listen to yourselves. Hate the sin, love the sinner comes across as mean-spirited instead of loving. We hear it as an ill-disguised attempt to seem loving when you really don't even like us let alone love us.

When it comes to sexual orientation, it is impossible to separate the sin from the sinner. Your heterosexual orientation is not something you do, it's who you are. In the same way, our orientation is not something we do, it's who we are. You can't hate our “sin” without hating us. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant. I'm just telling you how we perceive your rhetoric.[/FONT]

 

[SolidGround]

How bout these?

That's NOT in the Bible! "Hate the sin; love the sinner"


And the origin of the phrase goes to - St. Augustine and Gandhi - it’s a bookend tie! The phrase itself as we know it came directly from Gandhi’s 1929 autobiography. However, in Augustine’s letter 211, written around 424, is the phrase,



... Hating the sin while claiming to love the sinner gives us an opportunity to place more emphasis on the shortcomings of others rather than ourselves. In Matthew 7, Jesus told us to judge not, lest we should be judged. Concerning sin, he told us not to fuss about the speck of sawdust in our brother or sister’s eye when we’re blinded by a 2x4 plank in our own eye. Or, in John 8, a group of people point out to Jesus a woman who had been caught in adultery and remind him that the law teaches she should be stoned to death, and they want his response, and he says, “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone” (John 8:7).

In other words, it is quite inappropriate for us to go around pointing out the faults, shortcomings, failures, and weaknesses of others when we still have so many of our own. “Hate the sin; love the sinner” fails to meet this test because it focuses not on our own sin, but on that of someone else. The Scriptures clearly teach that “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:32), but the caution for Christians is to remember that this applies to us on the inside as well as those we perceive to be on the outside, and perhaps we who live in stained-glass houses should think twice before we start throwing stones.

https://carm.org/does-god-hate-anyone

God is love (1 John 4:8), but God also punishes the sinner and hates all who do iniquity. God is not one sided. He is not simply an infinitely loving God. He is also infinitely just. He must deal with sin. He must punish the sinner.
In the truth of God's word, we find that the Lord has provided one way by which we may be saved. That single way is through Jesus' sacrifice. For all who trust in Him, salvation will come. But to those who turn away, God's wrath abides upon them: "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him," (John 3:36).
Does God hate anyone?

Does God hate anyone? The answer is yes.

• Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"
• Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."
• Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."
• Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven whichare an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."
• Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels."

Are we to love the sinner but hate the sin?

Even as Christians, we cannot love perfectly, nor can we hate perfectly (i.e., without malice). But God can do both of these perfectly, because He is God. God can hate without any sinful intent. Therefore, He can hate the sin and the sinner in a perfectly holy way and still lovingly forgive the sinner at the moment of repentance and faith (Malachi 1:3; Revelation 2:6; 2 Peter 3:9).

Read more: Are we to love the sinner but hate the sin?

Do you love us enough to hear our heart?
10. Avoid hate the sin, love the sinner rhetoric


Now take a minute to listen to yourselves. Hate the sin, love the sinner comes across as mean-spirited instead of loving. We hear it as an ill-disguised attempt to seem loving when you really don't even like us let alone love us.

When it comes to sexual orientation, it is impossible to separate the sin from the sinner. Your heterosexual orientation is not something you do, it's who you are. In the same way, our orientation is not something we do, it's who we are. You can't hate our “sin” without hating us. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant. I'm just telling you how we perceive your rhetoric.

Are you sure that you know who you are?

 

[GuessWho]

How bout these?

That's NOT in the Bible! "Hate the sin; love the sinner".

How about you write your own post and not make me read the copy-paste that you already posted and that I already read (and totally disagree with it).

What's your point? That we should hate the sinners? Didn't Christ taught us to love even our enemies?

 

[Tankman131]

How about you write your own post and not make me read the copy-paste that you already posted and that I already read (and totally disagree with it).

What's your point? That we should hate the sinners? Didn't Christ taught us to love even our enemies?

The points made in this have not been addressed. If you are choosing to simply ignore the bible verses included then you are choosing to believe your own theology, not biblical theology.