Gods Elect vs man's selction

[CS1]

The concept of God electing those who will be saved (predestination) isn’t controversial. It is a biblical truth (John 6:44, Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:4-5). What is controversial is how and how God chooses those who will be saved. Throughout church history, there have been two main views on the doctrine of election. One view, which we will call the prescient or foreknowledge view, teaches that God, through His omniscience, knows those who will, in the course of time, choose of their own free will to place their faith and trust in Jesus Christ for their salvation. Based on this divine foreknowledge, God elects these individuals “before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4).


But when a man gets into picking winners and losers, terrible things happen in the name of the non-elect. Man can not know who elects, yet those who claim to be the "elect" will tell you who is not. Radicals move into Judgment of others. Proving they surely can't be the elect because they will be judged by the very judgment they have judged others AS Jesus said we would. The making of " the Elect " elite causes division and a lack of humility.

ignoring that we have been given the ministry of reconciliation and the Power of God which is the Gospel of Jesus Christ that can SAVE.

It was God, I believe :


For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

But what does God know? Surely, he was not serious in 1cor 1:21. The elect has always been known as the called-out Ones. God knows, and by His holy Spirit bearing record or witness with our spirit, we are the children of God.
Roman 8:16

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

How does your post harmonize with God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son?

If God chooses who becomes Elect then why die for the whole entire World?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Based on this divine foreknowledge, God elects these individuals “before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4).

For what purpose? That is the real issue. See Romans 8:29.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

How does your post harmonize with God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son?

If God chooses who becomes Elect then why die for the whole entire World?

It would also mean that every living soul that ends up in hell is because that was Gods will for the " non elect " think of what an unjust God for those folks.

God knows who will be saved he's known from the beginning but it's just that he knows the outcome of the choices we will make regarding the gospel he knows which person will believe the gospel when they hear it and who won't . But this doesn't affect our perspective were making the choices it doesn't change that because God knows the choices well make and if we'll be saved .

The idea of election has been changed into the idea of God forces one person to salvation regardless of their choices and others to hell regardless of their choices . Just because that's his will but the bible tells us Gods will is that all men would repent and come to the truth and be saved multiple times . And he also tells us that people are going to be judged on what they do not on what he made them do or forced upon them .

The bible is actually clear God has known those who will be saved always but this doesn't remove our perspective as the ones choosing or change our free will to choose Gid knows the outcome of our choices we dont yet

 

[Aussie52]

The concept of God electing those who will be saved (predestination) isn’t controversial. It is a biblical truth (John 6:44, Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:4-5). What is controversial is how and how God chooses those who will be saved. Throughout church history, there have been two main views on the doctrine of election. One view, which we will call the prescient or foreknowledge view, teaches that God, through His omniscience, knows those who will, in the course of time, choose of their own free will to place their faith and trust in Jesus Christ for their salvation. Based on this divine foreknowledge, God elects these individuals “before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4).


But when a man gets into picking winners and losers, terrible things happen in the name of the non-elect. Man can not know who elects, yet those who claim to be the "elect" will tell you who is not. Radicals move into Judgment of others. Proving they surely can't be the elect because they will be judged by the very judgment they have judged others AS Jesus said we would. The making of " the Elect " elite causes division and a lack of humility.

ignoring that we have been given the ministry of reconciliation and the Power of God which is the Gospel of Jesus Christ that can SAVE.

It was God, I believe :


For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

But what does God know? Surely, he was not serious in 1cor 1:21. The elect has always been known as the called-out Ones. God knows, and by His holy Spirit bearing record or witness with our spirit, we are the children of God.
Roman 8:16

There is a third option. The corporate view of election. God chooses those 'in Christ' to be conformed into the image of Christ. Predestination/election has to do with those 'in Christ' ( Eph 1) not the unsaved.

 

[Deuteronomy]

If God chooses who becomes Elect then why die for the whole entire World?

Hello FollowerofShiloh, the question is, what are phrases like "the world" and/or "all men" referring to when they are used in the Scriptures

I believe that they can have different meanings, depending on the context, from "everybody, everywhere for all time", to "not just the Jews" (the former necessarily referring to every individual, everywhere for all time, the latter referring to groups or communities of people from everywhere in the world, but ~not~ every person from those groups/communities, typically).

Just FYI, the latter is, in point of fact, what 1st Century Israel typically meant whenever they spoke of "the world". IOW, they contrasted themselves (as one group) with the rest of the world (as the other group), us ~VS~ them, Jews ~AND/OR~ Greeks, the Jewish Nation ~AND/OR~ the Gentile Nations, etc.

Then the question that is further raised about this goes as follows, does "the world"/"all men" in the Scriptures refer to everyone, everywhere for all time, ALL, w/o exception, or does it refer to all of the groups/nations of the world, but only ~some~ of the people in those groups, people ~from~ every nation and tribe and tongue and people, IOW, ALL, w/o distinction

Again, I think that in the Scriptures it can be either, depending on the which verse or passage is being looked at, and what makes sense, contextually. For example, here's a verse that is most often said to refer to all, w/o exception ... but does it

​

John 12​

32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” ​

​

There is no question that this verse's "all men" is referring to all, w/o distinction, because we know that men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation/from all over the planet have already been drawn to Him but, on the other hand, can we also say that every person/individual who has ever lived has been drawn to Him as well

If so, what evidence is there to prove it (especially since we know that there are people, even today, who die w/o knowing who He is, and in some cases, w/o even hearing His Name).

So, for me anyway, John 12:32 is one of the verses where "all men" must mean "all, w/o distinction", because "all, w/o exception" (considering what we know) just doesn't seem to make sense in v32.

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy (David)
p.s. - John 3:16 is claimed by both sides, the one side focusing on the word "whosoever", while the other side focuses on the phrase, "whosoever believes". My question is, does it really matter? In the end, both sides agree that what the Lord did for us is "sufficient" to save ~all men, w/o exception~, but the fact is, only some men end up being saved, which essentially makes the point from those on the 1st side, moot (at least in a rubber meeting the road kind of way).

​

John 3​

16 God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. ​

​

 

[selahsays]

Just to keep it simple, our Father in heaven saves whoever believes in Him. It’s a promise.
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

- John 3:16-17 (NKJV)

 

[Lynx]

Man, these predestination threads are EVERYWHERE! Worse than skeeters in July.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

How does your post harmonize with God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son?

If God chooses who becomes Elect then why die for the whole entire World?

God so loved the world of believer

Jesus did not die to redeem the sins of all mankind, if so, all mankind would have eternal life, and even you know that the scriptures do not teach that. He only died for those that God gave him (John 6:37-39).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

It would also mean that every living soul that ends up in hell is because that was Gods will for the " non elect " think of what an unjust God for those folks.

God knows who will be saved he's known from the beginning but it's just that he knows the outcome of the choices we will make regarding the gospel he knows which person will believe the gospel when they hear it and who won't . But this doesn't affect our perspective were making the choices it doesn't change that because God knows the choices well make and if we'll be saved .

The idea of election has been changed into the idea of God forces one person to salvation regardless of their choices and others to hell regardless of their choices . Just because that's his will but the bible tells us Gods will is that all men would repent and come to the truth and be saved multiple times . And he also tells us that people are going to be judged on what they do not on what he made them do or forced upon them .

The bible is actually clear God has known those who will be saved always but this doesn't remove our perspective as the ones choosing or change our free will to choose Gid knows the outcome of our choices we dont yet

The outcome of our choices is explained in Psalms 53:2-3.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Just to keep it simple, our Father in heaven saves whoever believes in Him. It’s a promise.
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

- John 3:16-17 (NKJV)

You are correct in that the world in John 3:16 pertains to "the world of believers", not the the world of all humanity.

 

[Edify]

Those who say God predestined anything about our salvation gets scores of people making automatic assumptions what the thread is about. I think the word "predestination" should be taken out completely & simply state what you want to talk about.
God's plan was to save anybody & everybody. It's man's choice that "deselects".

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The outcome of our choices is explained in Psalms 53:2-3.

I feel bad for those who have no choice in what they believe or do

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You are correct in that the world in John 3:16 pertains to "the world of believers", not the the world of all humanity.

“and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭

“in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[p_rehbein]

God so loved the world of believer

Jesus did not die to redeem the sins of all mankind, if so, all mankind would have eternal life, and even you know that the scriptures do not teach that. He only died for those that God gave him (John 6:37-39).

The blood of Jesus is there to cleanse/save ALL who choose to believe in Him. God would have ALL the world be saved. It is man who determines their eternal destination, not God.

Man can choose to believe in and become disciples of Jesus, or to deny Him and choose eternal damnation.

The fact that God knows who will and who will not believe in Jesus in no way negates their free will to choose,

 

[p_rehbein]

I feel bad for those who have no choice in what they believe or do

Yeah. God so loved the world that He made all mankind robotic beings who had not choice in their lives. They just do whatever they were predestined to do from the beginning, huh?

Calvins T.U.L.I.P. ideology has really messed up a bunch of peoples thinking IMO.

 

[rrcn]

Here are a few more scriptures that may help out:
Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

[1Ti 2:4 KJV] 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
[Isa 45:22 KJV] 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else.
[Isa 49:6 KJV] 6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
[Isa 55:1 KJV] 1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
[Eze 18:23, 32 KJV] 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: [and] not that he should return from his ways, and live? ... 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye.
[Eze 33:11 KJV] 11 Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
[Jhn 3:17 KJV] 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

 

[Dino246]

Man, these predestination threads are EVERYWHERE! Worse than skeeters in July.

Such threads are a good reason to nap high up in a tree and ignore the clamour.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yeah. God so loved the world that He made all mankind robotic beings who had not choice in their lives. They just do whatever they were predestined to do from the beginning, huh?

Calvins T.U.L.I.P. ideology has really messed up a bunch of peoples thinking IMO.

Amen what a bizarre loving God people have created who gives certain no chance or hope of anything but torment in hell and others regardless of thier deeds they inherit eternity and apparently God is the puppet master who forced some into blazing fire regardless of what they wanted or chose whether they heard his call to repentance and responded nothing Jesus said about salvation even matters , yet all judgement is his all authority is his salvstion can only come from him who said over and over and over again

Hear what I’m saying to you believe me and you’ll live forever in my kingdom eternal as my family

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But then we were warned 1900 years ago about what would happen in the church

“preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:2-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Calvin’s ideas were already an issue in the church in Paul’s day people we’re already distorting the things Paul said about Gods grace this is what the true gospel actually does for us

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, ( the gospel was sent to all mankind for salvation mark 16) teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. ( that’s what Jesus doctrine teaches believers to repent and live upright lives while we wait for Jesus )

These things speak, and exhort, ( it’s what we should be sharing amongst other believers ) and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But this was already a problem creating a false grace and saying it’s of God within the church

“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.”
‭‭Jude‬ ‭1:4-5‬

We can be saved and then later be destroyed God knowing before who is going to be saved and lost doesn’t change our participation and choices

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Hello FollowerofShiloh, the question is, what are phrases like "the world" and/or "all men" referring to when they are used in the Scriptures

I believe that they can have different meanings, depending on the context, from "everybody, everywhere for all time", to "not just the Jews" (the former necessarily referring to every individual, everywhere for all time, the latter referring to groups or communities of people from everywhere in the world, but ~not~ every person from those groups/communities, typically).

Just FYI, the latter is, in point of fact, what 1st Century Israel typically meant whenever they spoke of "the world". IOW, they contrasted themselves (as one group) with the rest of the world (as the other group), us ~VS~ them, Jews ~AND/OR~ Greeks, the Jewish Nation ~AND/OR~ the Gentile Nations, etc.

Then the question that is further raised about this goes as follows, does "the world"/"all men" in the Scriptures refer to everyone, everywhere for all time, ALL, w/o exception, or does it refer to all of the groups/nations of the world, but only ~some~ of the people in those groups, people ~from~ every nation and tribe and tongue and people, IOW, ALL, w/o distinction

Again, I think that in the Scriptures it can be either, depending on the which verse or passage is being looked at, and what makes sense, contextually. For example, here's a verse that is most often said to refer to all, w/o exception ... but does it

​

John 12​

32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” ​

​

There is no question that this verse's "all men" is referring to all, w/o distinction, because we know that men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation/from all over the planet have already been drawn to Him but, on the other hand, can we also say that every person/individual who has ever lived has been drawn to Him as well

If so, what evidence is there to prove it (especially since we know that there are people, even today, who die w/o knowing who He is, and in some cases, w/o even hearing His Name).

So, for me anyway, John 12:32 is one of the verses where "all men" must mean "all, w/o distinction", because "all, w/o exception" (considering what we know) just doesn't seem to make sense in v32.

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy (David)
p.s. - John 3:16 is claimed by both sides, the one side focusing on the word "whosoever", while the other side focuses on the phrase, "whosoever believes". My question is, does it really matter? In the end, both sides agree that what the Lord did for us is "sufficient" to save ~all men, w/o exception~, but the fact is, only some men end up being saved, which essentially makes the point from those on the 1st side, moot (at least in a rubber meeting the road kind of way).

​

John 3​

16 God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. ​

​

We see many hear Stephen preach the Gospel to and harden their hearts to kill him.
We see many Peter preaches the Gospel to and they accept God.
So we know you can hear the Gospel and Believe or Reject it.

But the real question is...
Wasn't it God who made sure ALL of those people Heard the Gospel to give them a chance to Believe?

YES, It WAS!

So the Chosen and Elect only means those who CHOOSE to Believe because MANY will HEAR the Gospel!

It also means All of those people were PREDESTINED to Hear the Gospel.


We even have a coalition today that keeps track of who has HEARD the Gospel and who Believes and Rejected it based upon their own evangelists/missionaries/preachers in the field all over the world.

According to this coalitions records of who they have preached the Gospel to:

How many have heard the Gospel Preached? 4.7 Billion

How many claim to be a Christian world wide? 2.38 Billion

That means 2.3 Billion of the 4.7 Billion people who have heard the Gospel preached REJECTED it on the spot.


But I propose that all of those 4.7 Billion people this Coalition has preached to, God PREDESTINED every one of them to HEAR the Gospel.

And ALL of them had the opportunity to ACCEPT God and become the Elect but 48.5% Rejected God.


So I believe Jesus DIED for ALL people (Saved/not Saved) and God has given them ALL a chance to hear the Gospel and the Freedom to Accept it or Reject it.