God's Will Before the Firing Squad

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PAC-fit

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2018
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I'm genuinely puzzled by Christianity's rich Biblical competence when it comes 'to all eagerness' to facilitate Capital Punishment (CP), especially by those who present themselves as devout proponents of New Testament accuracy? Are you one? I get the deterrent part (if only that same enthusiasm was concerned with perpetual punishment, which gets lighter with every passing year). That still does not square with God's will in a contextual clear directive. Myself, I have reassessed my own to this end. Notice, for we know concerning possible lethal force:

", , authorities that exist have been established by God." (Romans 13:1)

Yet in 1 Corinthians 15:32, the Apostle's encounter without that establishment:

"If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantage is it to me? If the dead do not rise, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!”".

I can only go as far with CP until you deny that Christian "servant" of Romans 13:1 under His "establishment" as the scriptures declare! This is my contention. If that servant finds no basis of being recognized as "established", then it remains established as just another ambiguous sect that promotes division rather than confirming our "many members"! Is CP still just in this light?
 
Rom_13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

The bible does not condemn capital punishment. I would vote against it if we had the public will to keep murderers incarcerated for life. However, all too often murders are set free to kill again.
 
JESUS Christ The Same Yesterday, Today and Forever Hebrews 13:8

Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made He man. Genesis 9:6

There are no exceptions; pre-meditated, passion, mental illness, The murderer forfeits their life.
 
Well, I definitely condemn Tenesee's awful execution program, if that's what this thread is really about... the point of an execution is not to torture a person over a years' long span.

The fact that it has gone on for so long is a gross societal failure, and reveals the incompetance and cowardice of people and government in Tennesee, and really all of the US.

Execution is not a "medical proceedure", and it is very creepy, honestly, to see it discussed that way by journalists and media... that a so-called "conservative" state is mired down in neoliberal concepts is just very bizarre.
 
I think its innacurate to say we "facilitate" or want to make capital punishment easier- on the contrary- we want to make it hard.

Difficult. Not impossible.

The Church doesnt operate in the manner of men; but the state does- and it is just as wrong to try and have the state act like a church as it is to have the church act like the state.
 
I can only go as far with CP until you deny that Christian "servant" of Romans 13:1 under His "establishment" as the scriptures declare! This is my contention. If that servant finds no basis of being recognized as "established", then it remains established as just another ambiguous sect that promotes division rather than confirming our "many members"! Is CP still just in this light?
Can you explain this further? What do divisions in the church have to do with capital punishment?
 
Rom_13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

The bible does not condemn capital punishment. I would vote against it if we had the public will to keep murderers incarcerated for life. However, all too often murders are set free to kill again.
The OT definitely does not condemn it that's for sure. The way I look at capital punishment, after a few years in solitary confinement it would be like a mercy killing.
 
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

God allowed nations and kingdoms to take down nations if they got too cruel towards people and perverting God's truth.

Like Babylon that rode on eagle's wings and prospered because king Nebuchadnezzar acknowledged the God of Israel as the greatest God.

But his son blew it and the kingdom was stripped from them and given to the Medes and Persians.

God used Israel to take down cruel and false religious nations.

And they could be stoned for killing a person.

So capital punishment seems like it would be justified to do.

But this applies to the operation of the heathen as rulers and authority.

Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.

Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Rom 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Luk 3:14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

Approving of capital punishment applies to the heathen the rulers and authority.

But does not apply to the saints for they are to not want any harm to come to a person no matter what they did.

For that is love and love is the fulfilling of the law.

John the Baptist told the soldiers to do no violence to any person which means do not participate in war and do not physically punish anyone and treat them cruelly.

There is plenty of heathen to do the fighting and punishing.

The saints are not to be involved and be different than the world.

Some saints say I must join the military and fight but not only is it wrong but not required to get results.

God determines who falls and stands your participation will not matter.

God does not need your participation and He wants you to stay out of it.

Isa 31:4 For thus hath the LORD spoken unto me, Like as the lion and the young lion roaring on his prey, when a multitude of shepherds is called forth against him, he will not be afraid of their voice, nor abase himself for the noise of them: so shall the LORD of hosts come down to fight for mount Zion, and for the hill thereof.

Isa 31:5 As birds flying, so will the LORD of hosts defend Jerusalem; defending also he will deliver it; and passing over he will preserve it.

Like here the 1967, 6 day war, where Israeli fighter pilots paved the way to win this war.

During the 6 day war in June 1967, Israel faced a combined coalition of neighboring Arab nations—primarily Egypt, Jordan, and Syria, supported by other states like Iraq—that held a significant numerical and technological superiority in troops and heavy equipment.

The mobilizing Arab coalition deployed over 500,000 troops, whereas Israel had roughly 264,000 (largely reliant on rapid civilian reserves).

Arab forces possessed over 2000 tanks, compared to Israel's roughly 800 tanks.

Arab nations had nearly 1000 combat aircraft (including advanced Soviet-supplied MiG-21s), while the Israeli Air Force operated around 300 aircraft.

While facing roughly a 2-to-1 disadvantage in personnel and tanks, and a 3-to-1 disadvantage in aircraft, Israel launched a massive preemptive surprise airstrike on June 5, 1967, destroying the majority of Egyptian and regional air forces on the ground.

This swift capture of air supremacy, combined with superior training, tactical organization, and high operational sortie rates, allowed Israel to decisively defeat the coalition forces and secure victory within six days.

Because God determines who falls and stands.

It did not matter if Israel had the disadvantage God said like birds flying He will take back Jerusalem which Israel took back Jerusalem.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

But they could fight physically still operating by the Old Testament not a New Testament saint.

I know some people claiming to be a saint are gung ho to fight for their nation and freedom not liking to be a wimp which I was in the military.

But it would be disobedience so would it be worth it.

And God does not need you to fight and does not want you to fight.

If God wants them to fall they will fall no matter the odds.

Capital punishment should not be endorsed by Christians.

Let the heathen do their job and the Christians do their job.
 
I'm genuinely puzzled by Christianity's rich Biblical competence when it comes 'to all eagerness' to facilitate Capital Punishment (CP), especially by those who present themselves as devout proponents of New Testament accuracy? Are you one? I get the deterrent part (if only that same enthusiasm was concerned with perpetual punishment, which gets lighter with every passing year). That still does not square with God's will in a contextual clear directive. Myself, I have reassessed my own to this end. Notice, for we know concerning possible lethal force:

", , authorities that exist have been established by God." (Romans 13:1)

Yet in 1 Corinthians 15:32, the Apostle's encounter without that establishment:

"If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantage is it to me? If the dead do not rise, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!”".

I can only go as far with CP until you deny that Christian "servant" of Romans 13:1 under His "establishment" as the scriptures declare! This is my contention. If that servant finds no basis of being recognized as "established", then it remains established as just another ambiguous sect that promotes division rather than confirming our "many members"! Is CP still just in this light?

Dear brother Pac fit,

I can understand your first paragraph, but the rest is unclear to me.
I spent a large chunk of my life studying/teaching many topics surrounding the first premise, ie Christian ethics as to self defense vs retribution, Biblical restitution vs secular punishment systems.

I'm having difficulty seeing the relationship of the last part with the rest of your post.
Can you kindly distill the last paragraph to make it easy for me to understand where you are coming from and the purpose of the topic?

Thank you and have a good day!
 
Dear brother Pac fit,

I can understand your first paragraph, but the rest is unclear to me.
I spent a large chunk of my life studying/teaching many topics surrounding the first premise, ie Christian ethics as to self defense vs retribution, Biblical restitution vs secular punishment systems.

I'm having difficulty seeing the relationship of the last part with the rest of your post.
Can you kindly distill the last paragraph to make it easy for me to understand where you are coming from and the purpose of the topic?

Thank you and have a good day!
Most certainly! In short, the missing institution and ‘establishment’ of the “servant”. He was put there for a purpose, not to sit and watch it be absorbed into some governmental unspoken protocol. To date, without that establishing, that governing authority simply acts as a lawful yet unjust, serial-killer. The outdated (due to being fulfilled by Jesus) "eye for an eye" is fully active and disqualifies the state from assuming the "servant's" role. I count this an unfinished matter.

Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. (1Corinthians 13:1)

There is that ‘pesky’ establishing again. As the scriptures declare: "Every matter”.

The identity and qualification of the “servant” has to be established before the sword can inherit the servant's authority. I suppose an instantaneous limitation was imposed upon him from ages-past due to impossibility for him not being able to always decipher clearly between what he is called to excel in – “good” and “evil”. Whoever continues to bear that title of maintaining the Christian’s inabilities has his hands full:

Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of life? (1Corinthians 6:3)

How do I see the NT handling lethal force? I just told you, the reader, begin by throwing out the idea of God 'not' blessing our weakness, but increasing our understanding. As the man of God asked V6: “Do you not know, ,?”​
 
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There is plenty of heathen to do the fighting and punishing.

The saints are not to be involved and be different than the world.

Some saints say I must join the military and fight but not only is it wrong but not required to get results.

God determines who falls and stands your participation will not matter.

God does not need your participation and He wants you to stay out of it.
", , that promotes division rather than confirming our "many members"!
Why do you discount so easily Romans 13 "servant"? He is also Christian. As it is written, he too is "God's servant" (v4, Rom 8:9).
 
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Not 100% sure; but it sounds like the argument is that the church is supposed to establish government authorities? It looks like a conflation of church and state.

Romans 8 is instruction to the church about the church- anyone not having the spirit isn't part of the NT church, for sure- but everyone and everything belongs to God in the sense of being his property.

The "outdatedness" of an eye for an eye pertains to its COVENANT USE; not it's legitimacy as a civil code. The unbelieving world doesnt have any part in the NT, and can't be governed by it.
 

Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of life? (1Corinthians 6:3)
​
I don't at all understand what you're asking, but that verse has to do with "things that pertain to this life" within the church (brother against brother), not things that are outside of the church (the unbelieving state).

For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. 1 Cor 5:12-13 (KJV)
 
Most certainly! In short, the missing institution and ‘establishment’ of the “servant”. He was put there for a purpose, not to sit and watch it be absorbed into some governmental unspoken protocol. To date, without that establishing, that governing authority simply acts as a lawful yet unjust, serial-killer. The outdated (due to being fulfilled by Jesus) "eye for an eye" is fully active and disqualifies the state from assuming the "servant's" role. I count this an unfinished matter.

Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. (1Corinthians 13:1)

There is that ‘pesky’ establishing again. As the scriptures declare: "Every matter”.

The identity and qualification of the “servant” has to be established before the sword can inherit the servant's authority. I suppose an instantaneous limitation was imposed upon him from ages-past due to impossibility for him not being able to always decipher clearly between what he is called to excel in – “good” and “evil”. Whoever continues to bear that title of maintaining the Christian’s inabilities has his hands full:

Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of life? (1Corinthians 6:3)

How do I see the NT handling lethal force? I just told you, the reader, begin by throwing out the idea of God 'not' blessing our weakness, but increasing our understanding. As the man of God asked V6: “Do you not know, ,?”​

Thank you very much for clarifying that for me.

I don't have time right now to get into details, but will offer food for thought.
Romans 13 is possibly one of those difficult passages that Peter refered to in Paul's writings.
Romans 13:4 KJV is particularly interesting.
We know God ordained a just system of capital punishment in the OT that has no conclusion when the New was established.

Points for consideration:
A. The true command (as opposed to noahide so called laws) was concerning justice in regards to shedding of blood, Genesis 9.

B. More details were given when Moses was given the law. The moral law of justice included an establishment of "a revenger of blood."

C. Many human governments of the past were brutally unjust. One estimate from an historian who investigated the records of the 20th century showed a likelyhood of as many as 250,000,000 innocent people murdered by their own governments. The figures did not include opposition armies in times of warfare. Some familiar mass murderers were Adolph Hitler, Pol Pot's Kimire Rouge, Mao's reign of communism and a list of Soviet Russian dictators.
We ask ourselves in light of Romans 13, was God ordaining the evils, the atrocities that demon possessed mass murderers committed? I think not.