It is all modern corruption with nothing to do with Christianity. God demands death penalty for first degree murderers and terrorists who shed innocent blood.
God's Will Before the Firing Squad
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That is an identifiable stretch. Nothing is delineated except one clear one as seen in the OP by again, the use of a Christian. And I continue to wait for that Romans "servant" (RS) shown to be UN-Christian (post #11). Like most everyone here, you again leave off that which does not conform to a desired outcome. Four instances are seen using weaponry in a positive light against ANYTHING by the Spirit's word. Yes, "perils" as Paul put it could certainly be included, but I've seen this exchange before. If you don't agree with the points I raise thus far, it isn't likely to occur with more.
There is not one Biblical account where the disciples used violence against any person who was not later rebuked by the Lord.
"Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”
"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places."
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints..."
But the Lord is not passive. Here, Paul did not request leniency for Alexander but an adequate repayment for the harm he caused Paul
"Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm. May the Lord repay him according to his works. You also must beware of him, for he has greatly resisted our words."
A physical weapon can only be used to protect a physical body. The Lord's answer to that threat is to give eternal life to all who are in Him. The sword can only end the life of the corruptible body but it can do nothing against God's holy people in the Lord.
Right, who still had not yet received the gift of the promise of power. Therein, two are present in the OP.
Right again! Now are these concerns for the Church to cancel my points found elsewhere? I don't anticipating entertaining much more of these deflections concerning God's will for the other side of the Church door. Get ahead a little here, for the Church, Paul says by the Spirit: "For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?"(1Cor 1:12), , right after the Spirit impresses him with who is to judge outsiders: "They are God’s [Christian] servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."(Rom 13:4).
Again, how do you continue to refuse what God has called into existence? For if the RS was an angel, he wouldn't be bearing the sword!!
Here is a ruler in the church (Paul) giving instruction on how to bring punishment on the wrongdoer within the church:
"In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
Notice the point is to save the offending brother from his perilous decisions.
Fair question concerned of not only His will, but authority when defending my nation's interests, while treating that same authority differently when considering the interests of Christ's Church beyond my national borders. It is therefore of dual allegiance. That could be challenging in some form or fashion down the road, but as for the onset establishing of the RS, it would fall on beyond the borders of all who bear His name.
Wow, very fancy wording. I actually don’t understand anything you said. I’ve read it a couple of times.
Bible discussion forum is rarely an easy-reading novel. Here's my take-
1) God's will is the most important thing.
2) The country is important, too; and we want things to be done in a way that is acceptable to God; to the greatest extent possible; because we dont want to end up like Sodom.
3) The church outside of the US is important as well; and taking that into consideration could have an effect on your foreign policy positions, for better or worse.
Yessir, He never changes. He cannot be mocked, what a person sows is what they reap.
Those they get away with murder in this life will not escape God's judgement in eternity
And those convicted of murder should be witnessed to and given opportunity to repent and get born again.
But Jesus did tell some folks to obtain a weapon
Luke 22:36 - Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
Luke 22:36 is a verse where Jesus instructs His disciples to take provisions for their journey, emphasizing that if they do not have a sword, they should sell their cloak to buy one. This reflects a shift in their circumstances, indicating the need for preparedness in facing upcoming challenges including the need for self defense.
If one "lives" by the sword (any deadly weapon) this means the weapon is what they live by as in their faith and trust in weapons comes before the Lord which of course is idolatry. Trust the Lord first and foremost.
If it's a sin to have a deadly weapon then that would be accusing Jesus of committing sin when He told them to get a sword the second time He sent His disciples out. (Luke 22:36). Accusing Jesus of sinful behavior ends badly.
And anti-weapons people would be saying Romans 13 is advocating sin for the "servant of God" who bares the sword
Romans 13:4 - For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Having to use a weapon on someone in self defense should be something a Christian should never want to have to do, but it's not a sin to defend one's self if the need arises.
I was simply asking if the OP was talking about the US or govts in general? Not sure why that’s so hard to answer? If it is the US, then why should the US be different than others?
(Ideally, the govt should seek God on what it’s punishments should look like, but we know that won’t happen.)
The servant of God bears the sword of the Spirit, which can kill (see Ananias an Sapphira).
I am not talking about weapon ownership. I am talking about endorsing deadly force against another person.
"You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above..."
Pretty sure the OP’s question is directed at the US, and should be titled “Why aren’t yall as progressive and forward thinking as us here in Europe, with no death penalty?”
It's not sinful for the servant of God to have weapons such as guns. Not after Jesus told those folks in Luke 22:36 to get a sword which is a deadly weapon used to kill and mame people with. Jesus is well aware of what swords are used for. That's the equivalent of having a hand gun in modern times.
It was the Lord that took out Ananias an Sapphira, not any man. He did so because of their grievous sin and they were not rewarded with Heaven since the Lord said liars will have their part in the lake that burns with fire (Revelation 21:8).
Romans 13:4 endorses using deadly force upon those that do evil
Romans 13:4 - For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
That's an assumption with no scriptural basis. In fact, as I've stated, there is no record of any disciple using deadly force on anyone in the scriptural record.
Also, the verse about "swords" is this: "But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?"
The "place" of the sword was at their belt, not in their hands as a weapon. This isn't "live by". This is "utilize against people".
How do we know? Because of His next sentence:
"..do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?"
What would you rather have for protection: a sword in your hand or 12 legions of angels?
The issue is really about unbelief: pew-sitters don't really believe God can send angels to their defense just as they DO believe a serial adulterer and philanderer is their proper governmental representative. This "wisdom" is not informed by God above but by the traditions of the world.
You must have missed the part where Jesus told those folks in Luke 22:36 to get a sword which is a deadly weapon.
If having a weapon is sinful, then that would be claiming Jesus committed sin because He told them to obtain a weapon.
If your conscience does not allow you to have a weapon then that's fine. You should follow your conscience, but it is error to tell others they are required to follow your conscience. They are not.
There is however record of the Lord Jesus telling people to obtain a deadly weapon in Luke 22:36
That's the elephant in the room you won't address and cannot explain away.
You seem to have forgotten Jesus was sent here to go to the Cross and as such He had to lay down His life willingly and if He tried to defend Himself from this in any way it would have been ignoring and disobeying the will of the Father which would have been sinful.
That's totally different from Jesus telling people He is send out out to minister to obtain a deadly weapon. Jesus is not ignorant in telling people to get a weapon for no reason. He never told them to never use it and always keep it in their belt. He's not wasting their time telling them to do something for no reason whatsoever.
This is similar to keeping Saturday sabbath. You can if you'd like, but it is error to tell others they are in sin if they don't
Telling others it's a sin to have a weapon is error. That's just your belief that only applies to your life, not everyone else's.
So do you think Peter executed Ananias and Sapphira "with the word"? I'm sure the Jews would love to hear that one.
That is crazy; who goes around praying that god will kill somebody for them? Does your church do that?
Do you not know the account?:
Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.
3Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”
5When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 6Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.
7About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8Peter asked her, “Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?”
“Yes,” she said, “that is the price.”
9Peter said to her, “How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.”
10At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.
Peter didn't curse anybody to die. He simply cast judgement on their actions.
It was the Holy Spirit who acted.
