"God's will that none perish".. but "some will perish"?..

[tourist]

God desires that all men be saved and come to Him. So much so that Christ became the Perfect Sacrifice to make it possible. However, man has free will, and that puts a monkey wrench in the whole Plan.

Yes, IF GOD CHOSE FOR IT TO, His will could override mans free will, but He has chosen to give man the free choice to accept Him, love Him, and become one of His. God wants a people that love Him and WANT to by His children, not a bunch of robots.


(now, that's probably just me.......but, still)

Your opinion is of much value as mine or any other member of this site.

 

[breno785au]

That of course brings up the next great question. Did Adam have any real concept of what eternal condemnation as in death really entailed?

Did Adam really consider the consequences of his actions or did he just act because of Eve?

One of those things I'll have to ask Adam in eternity or perhaps the Lord Himself will reveal it. I imagine a lot of folks may want to ask Adam what were you thinking man what were you thinking.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I probably would've done the same as Adam so I don't think I'd be asking him that... And since God had a plan before the world was even created...

 

[notuptome]

I probably would've done the same as Adam so I don't think I'd be asking him that... And since God had a plan before the world was even created...

Sounds fatalistic to me. Certainly Lucifer knew human weakness and used Eve to get to Adam.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[MattforJesus]

Something Ive been wondering.. If God is "NOT willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9), then why will some partake in the second death like Revelation 21:8 says??

If it's God's will that no man perish then why will some men perish? Spirit led thoughts and scripture references please.

It is not God's will that any should perish(2 Peter 3:9),but He gave us a choice,and they did not want to accept the truth,which the Bible says creation testifies that there is a God,and of His attributes(Romans 1:17-23),which one of them is love,for He provided food,and the means to make clothing,and shelter,so people should love this higher power,and people,so they are without excuse.It covers the 2 greatest laws,love God,and love people(Matthew 22:36-40),and add to that the word of God,which God said He identifies Himself as the one true God by showing the end from the beginning,which He showed us the whole history of mankind(Isaiah 41:21-29),and the saints being with God for eternity(Revelation 21:1-7),and Jesus came and testified of the truth,which He said now they do not have a cloke for their sin for He pointed out the truth(John 15:21-23).

Some people believe that God chose in the beginning those that would be saved,and those who would not be saved,without a choice of their own,but this is not true,and they say that so that they can believe they can never fall,and if they want to enjoy sin they can do it and believe they will not fall,and that is why they say they cannot abstain from sin,but by the Spirit we can abstain from sin(Galatians 5:16-26),and sin does not affect their relationship with God,but God is not mocked whatever a person sows that shall they reap,and tells the saints to not be deceived by that(Galatians 6:6-9),and this is what seals the saints that they depart from iniquity(2 Timothy 2:19).

The Bible says God wants all people to repent,and come to the knowledge of the truth,and be saved(1 Timothy 2:3-4).

The Spirit and bride say,come,and anybody that wants that salvation can have it(Revelation 22:17).

Jesus lights every person that is born in this world,so everybody has the chance to see the light of Jesus and be saved(John 1:9).

If God chose in the beginning without the input of people then,

1.God's kingdom is not true love but robotic love,for they have no choice but to say they love God,seeing no other alternative,but it did not come from them to say I love you,for God made the choice.

2.God would be condemning people that had no input in their salvation,which He is not evil.

3.All are sinners and come short of the glory of God,and there is none that does good,no,not one,and our righteousness is as filthy rags,and what makes you to differ from another,and if you offend in the least of the law then you offend in all the law.

So everybody is in the same position,so why would God choose some,and not others,without them having a choice in the matter,when all people are in the same position.

4.If people do not have a choice in their salvation,then He would of not created the earth,and put people on it,for He could of created the saints with a soul,and glorified body,to be with Him,and cut out the creation of the earth,for the result would be the same,for they have no choice,and there would be no purpose for the earth.

God would not allow all the suffering,and pain,and troubles,that occur on earth if people do not have a choice,for the earth would serve no purpose,for He could of created them to be with Him without the earth and the result would be the same,because they have no choice.

But if He gave us a choice then the earth has a purpose.

5.God commands all people to repent,but why would He command all people to repent when repentance does not matter for those He did not choose.

The Bible says many are called but few are chosen(Matthew 22:14),so if God chose in the beginning,then why is He calling people that cannot be chosen.God does the calling and choosing on earth.

No person comes to the Son unless the Father draws them(John 6:44),and no person can say Jesus is Lord,but by the Holy Spirit(1 Corinthians 12:3).

When God calls a person He will work with them to get them to the truth,but when they get to the door they must open it because we have a choice,but they would of not gotten to the door of truth unless God interceded in their life when He called them to get them to the door of truth,so God chose us we did not choose Him,but it is on this earth.

The saints were predestined to salvation,but that means it was a plan of God to happen in the future,so it is the same as if it happened in the beginning.

The Bible says God calls things that have not happened yet,as though they already happened(Romans 4:17),for if it is a plan of God to happen in the future it is the same as if it happened in the beginning,for it will surely come to pass with no hindrance.

The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world(Revelation 13:8),but it was a future event,the prophets blood shed from the foundation of the world(Luke 11:50),but it was a future event,the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world(Matthew 25:34,but a future event when Jesus said He went to prepare a place for the saints(John 14:2-3),and all the works were finished from the foundation of the world(Hebrews 4:3).

God did not choose who would be saved,and not saved,without their input,but He had the plan to give mankind salvation before the foundation of the world,so it is the same as if they have that salvation in the beginning,but it was a future event to all who chose that salvation.

Old Testament,Adam made in the image of God(Genesis 1:26-27),New Testament,Adam made in the figure of Christ(Romans 5:14).The image of God is the image of Christ.

God had the plan to come in the future in flesh,and created Adam in that image,an innocent nature in flesh.

In the beginning was the Word,and the Word was with God,and the Word was God.
All things were made by Him,and without Him was not anything made that was made(John 1:1;3).

In the beginning God had the plan to come in the future in flesh,and that plan was with God before He created the foundation of the world,and that plan was God manifest in flesh.
All things were made with the plan of God coming in flesh,and without the plan of God coming in flesh He would of not created anything He created,for Jesus is the reason creation is successful,forgiveness of sins,and eternal life.

That is why Jesus is the firstborn of all creatures(Colossians 1:15),the beginning of the creation(Revelation 3:14),even though He was not born until 4000 years later,for He was the first plan that God had to come in the future in flesh,so it is the same as if He was the first of all creation,for God calls things that have not happened yet,as though they already happened.

Which God did not choose who will be saved,and not saved,without their input,and wants all people to be saved,but some people do not accept the truth to be saved.Like God said He does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked(Ezekiel 18:32).

 

[Laish]

You think that this is an example of free will, to have a gun put to your head? No, its just a stronger inclination to preserve the life than the inclination to drink.

And who knows, how many people would be shot, finally. I would not recommend to do such experiment.

"Free" is nothing in it.

Yea it’s a poor example about the alcoholic,and the gun . The alcoholism is but a symptom of a larger problem. A failure to address our sin and to have a connection to God thru the whole and finished work of Christ Jesus .
Blessings
Bill

 

[dcontroversal]

This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil

and men will not come to the light lest their deeds be reproved.......

 

[davida]

Can you define free will?

An alcoholic has no free will, but still, he is not a robot.

Wrong, one chooses to drink or smoke. I stopped drinking but struggle with cigs but I choose it. I am not forced to buy them.

 

[joaniemarie]

There is a diversity of belief and controversy on this issue.

I can only share what I believe:

When a mother warns a child not to touch a hot stove or he/she will be burned; she has no desire to see the child burned.

The consequence of touching the hot stove is inherent in the act of touching the hot stove.

The consequence of sin is also inherent in the act.

I believe that God created mankind because He wanted a creature who could receive and return His love.

The nature of love is such that it can not be programmed and must be a voluntary response.

God knew before Adam was created that Adam would eat the forbidden fruit, and need to be redeemed.

God valued love and the capacity to love enough that He was willing to redeem mankind from the consequence of sin through His own suffering.

In order to benefit from God's redemption, each person must decide to accept both the gift of redemption and Jesus claim of Lordship (ownership) on his/her life.

God offers this redemption freely to all men; but does not impose it on any. As refraining from eating the forbidden fruit was to Adam, the decision to accept or reject God's offer of both redemption and Lordship is to all mankind.

God desires that no man should perish; but desires more that people have the capacity to love.

I believe that Jesus paid the consequence for ALL sin and the only thing that sends any person to Hell is rejection of God's redemption and Lordship.

I agree with you Marc. I would also add that the Lordship part comes as we learn and are changed from glory to glory. We begin to take on the image of Jesus from the inside out as we learn of Him. He is Lord at all times and in all places but our learning what that means comes as we grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[OtherWay210]

The reason they take part of the second death, is precisely the reason Christians are NEVER taught today, its because Satans deception which the bible goes to great lengths to forewarn about is coming , is mostly Ignored today !.
This is due largely impart to Satan setting up people claiming to be God in the churches chanting war and pain of the Tribulation, therefore be raptured .

But the Bible does not teach that. So Satan when he gets here, will take many off guard with how sweet and innocent he looks, and with all the miracles he can perform .

There is at least the Lords day, so by the end of that, anyone that wants to be in heaven will be there, and those that want to die alone with Satan can do that.

 

[garee]

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

God is indeed willing but the hardness of men's hearts prevents many from repenting and receiving Christ. Pride or reliance upon self righteousness or just plain old love of sin is why many refuse to come thought Christ pleads with them from the cross. They know not what they do.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

God must do all the work from the hearing of faith of God to turning us toward him so that we can repent.Repentance is a work of God if he does not do the first work of turning us to repent no man could find him in order to receive His understanding.

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God. Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.. Jer 31:18


To repent is to comfort one self so that then a person can turn from their sin.. first having someone to turn to. In that way God does comfort himself when he applies his mercy as a product of His grace. Or when he does turn us toward himself by the hearing of His word .Having been turned or moved by God we then can comfort ourselves as he assures us he will finish the good work that he began. Not a work what we began after the imagination of ones heart as a source of human faith .. Then we can remember how childish it was when we refused to hear .

05162 nacham {naw-kham'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 1344; v
AV - comfort 57, repent 41, comforter 9, ease 1; 108
1) to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted 1a) (Niphal) 1a1) to be sorry, be moved to pity, have compassion 1a2) to be sorry, rue, suffer grief, repent 1a3) to comfort oneself, be comforted 1a4) to comfort oneself, ease oneself 1b) (Piel) to comfort, console 1c) (Pual) to be comforted, be consoled 1d) (Hithpael) 1d1) to be sorry, have compassion 1d2) to rue, repent of 1d3) to comfort oneself, be comforted 1d4) to ease oneself

 

[notuptome]

God must do all the work from the hearing of faith of God to turning us toward him so that we can repent.Repentance is a work of God if he does not do the first work of turning us to repent no man could find him in order to receive His understanding.

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God. Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.. Jer 31:18


To repent is to comfort one self so that then a person can turn from their sin.. first having someone to turn to. In that way God does comfort himself when he applies his mercy as a product of His grace. Or when he does turn us toward himself by the hearing of His word .Having been turned or moved by God we then can comfort ourselves as he assures us he will finish the good work that he began. Not a work what we began after the imagination of ones heart as a source of human faith .. Then we can remember how childish it was when we refused to hear .

05162 nacham {naw-kham'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 1344; v
AV - comfort 57, repent 41, comforter 9, ease 1; 108
1) to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted 1a) (Niphal) 1a1) to be sorry, be moved to pity, have compassion 1a2) to be sorry, rue, suffer grief, repent 1a3) to comfort oneself, be comforted 1a4) to comfort oneself, ease oneself 1b) (Piel) to comfort, console 1c) (Pual) to be comforted, be consoled 1d) (Hithpael) 1d1) to be sorry, have compassion 1d2) to rue, repent of 1d3) to comfort oneself, be comforted 1d4) to ease oneself

So what's the problem?

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

John 16:7 ¶ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[MattforJesus]

The thing about people believing that God chooses who will be saved,and not saved,at the beginning,with no input of their own,makes belief,faith,love,hope,and any other action as part of living for God,void,because they truly do not believe,they truly did not repent,they truly do not have faith,they truly do not have love,they truly do not have hope,and they truly do not have any other action that is part of living for God,because it did not come from them but God.

That right there tells you that it is not right.You can program your computer to say,I love you,but does it really love you,it does not,but has no choice but to say,I love you,seeing no other alternative.

Many are called but few are chosen,and God said He wants all people to be saved,and anybody can have that salvation,and having a choice is the only way that our belief is real,our repentance is real,our faith is real,our love is real,our hope is real,and any other action in living for God is real.

If we do not have a choice in our salvation God would of not created the earth,but created the saints soul,and glorified body,to be with Him,for the earth serves no purpose without choice because then our belief,repentance,faith,love,hope,and any other action for living for God is not real.

That should be common sense.

If God is not willing that any perish but all come to repentance,and wants all to repent,come to the knowledge of the truth,and be saved,then He did not choose who will be saved,or not saved,without their input in the matter.

God had the plan to give salvation to mankind before He laid down the foundation of the world,so it is the same as if the saints have salvation at the beginning,and that salvation is to whoever wants it,for God calls things that have not happened yet,as though they already happened,like the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world to provide salvation,although it was future,and all who choose to accept that salvation is the same as if they have that salvation in the beginning,although they chose in the future.

 

[notuptome]

The thing about people believing that God chooses who will be saved,and not saved,at the beginning,with no input of their own,makes belief,faith,love,hope,and any other action as part of living for God,void,because they truly do not believe,they truly did not repent,they truly do not have faith,they truly do not have love,they truly do not have hope,and they truly do not have any other action that is part of living for God,because it did not come from them but God.

That right there tells you that it is not right.You can program your computer to say,I love you,but does it really love you,it does not,but has no choice but to say,I love you,seeing no other alternative.

Many are called but few are chosen,and God said He wants all people to be saved,and anybody can have that salvation,and having a choice is the only way that our belief is real,our repentance is real,our faith is real,our love is real,our hope is real,and any other action in living for God is real.

If we do not have a choice in our salvation God would of not created the earth,but created the saints soul,and glorified body,to be with Him,for the earth serves no purpose without choice because then our belief,repentance,faith,love,hope,and any other action for living for God is not real.

That should be common sense.

If God is not willing that any perish but all come to repentance,and wants all to repent,come to the knowledge of the truth,and be saved,then He did not choose who will be saved,or not saved,without their input in the matter.

God had the plan to give salvation to mankind before He laid down the foundation of the world,so it is the same as if the saints have salvation at the beginning,and that salvation is to whoever wants it,for God calls things that have not happened yet,as though they already happened,like the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world to provide salvation,although it was future,and all who choose to accept that salvation is the same as if they have that salvation in the beginning,although they chose in the future.

It's just man's nature to endeavor to not assume responsibility for his sins.

If God chooses then man is not responsible for his sin. I have heard men say they do not need to be saved because they are not responsible for their sin. They did not ask to be born so they are not to be held accountable to God.

Man has a will and is not inclined to submit his will to Gods will. Gods love and Holy Spirit lead men to submit their will to Gods will and to salvation by grace through faith.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[OtherWay210]

MattforJesus you're right . Its common sense .. People are so used to one liners from their church that they forget common sense of the scriptures. They dont put their question in the proper context of scriptures they try to bend scriptures around their questions or preconceived notions

 

[Inquistor]

Wrong, one chooses to drink or smoke. I stopped drinking but struggle with cigs but I choose it. I am not forced to buy them.

There IS a solution ... if you REALLY want to / have to QUIT!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0ImqIkYFRw

 

[garee]

So what's the problem?

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

John 16:7 ¶ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I would offer. No problem. The all are the many that the father gave to the Son. No more and no less.They will come as they His his voice.

He gave His ransom as a labor of His love to many and not the all in everyone(universalism)

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

 

[Inquistor]

MattforJesus you're right . Its common sense .. People are so used to one liners from their church that they forget common sense of the scriptures. They dont put their question in the proper context of scriptures they try to bend scriptures around their questions or preconceived notions

There are PLENTY of scriptures that have ALREADY been BENT around some peoples' preconceived notions!

Here is a flagrant case in point:


1 John 5:7 For there are three that testify:

 

[garee]

The thing about people believing that God chooses who will be saved,and not saved,at the beginning,with no input of their own,makes belief,faith,love,hope,and any other action as part of living for God,void,because they truly do not believe,they truly did not repent,they truly do not have faith,they truly do not have love,they truly do not have hope,and they truly do not have any other action that is part of living for God,because it did not come from them but God.

That right there tells you that it is not right.You can program your computer to say,I love you,but does it really love you,it does not,but has no choice but to say,I love you,seeing no other alternative.

Many are called but few are chosen,and God said He wants all people to be saved,and anybody can have that salvation,and having a choice is the only way that our belief is real,our repentance is real,our faith is real,our love is real,our hope is real,and any other action in living for God is real.

If we do not have a choice in our salvation God would of not created the earth,but created the saints soul,and glorified body,to be with Him,for the earth serves no purpose without choice because then our belief,repentance,faith,love,hope,and any other action for living for God is not real.

That should be common sense.

It’s not a matter of common sense after the philosophies of men coming from the imagination of one’s sinful heart but a perfect law of God. A law that does work in us to quicken our souls giving us the understanding of Him not seen as a imputed righteousness.

Acts 11:9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
We can look at the use of the word none used three times.

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Rom 3:10

What if some believe not? Will it make the faith of Christ by which we can believe God to no effect? To effect something is to work.

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Rom 3:3

I would suggest it is Christ who begins the work of his faith as a labor of His love in us and finishes it to the end. He is our confidence. The gift is a new faith stemming from a new spirit and heart.

It’s what the foolish Galatians in chapter three had to deal with when the Lord called them back turning them towards himself, again and again so that they could repent (comfort themselves.) Repentance is a work of God.

We begin with the hearing of His faith that awakens our soul and by the same hearing finish it .

I think it is why it is called the perfect law of God as I complete not lacking anything. To me it’s very humbling as it was to Lazarus who was dead 4 days and God gave him the hearing of faith the created qualifier.

The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults. Psa 19:7

 

[Inquistor]

Sounds fatalistic to me. Certainly Lucifer knew human weakness and used Eve to get to Adam.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Here's a thought! Ask yourselves HOW Lucifer / Satan / the devil got into the Garden of Eden, and WHEN!

 

[Inquistor]

Here's a thought! Ask yourselves HOW Lucifer / Satan / the devil got into the Garden of Eden, and WHEN!

Not only are those good questions, but ask yourselves WHERE Lucifer was, when he was covered with precious jewels, and WHAT HAPPENED to that "beautiful body," and WHEN!