GOD'S WORD vs. man's opinion like GWHs.

[HeIsHere]

@HeIsHere you said tongues is a learned behavior.


Please kindly do me the curtesy of responding to my post:

You do realize tongues serve different purposes, do you not? Paul made this very clear in 1 Cor. 12 and 14.
Do you actually believe Paul was acting out a learned behavior?

1 Cor 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1 Cor 14:14-19
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.


Notice Paul says that through unknown tongues people give thanks well but others just don't understand what is being said:
Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.


I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue."

γλῶσσα (glōssa): The primary term for tongue or language in Koine Greek

The word in Greek means intelligible languages or the physical tongue therefore this means the people in this church at that time were speaking in various languages and this was causing confusion, hence the need for a translator.

It is quite simple actually.

 

[Wansvic]

You ignore the fact that pagans also babble, so that type of SIT aka ecstatic utterance is evidence of nothing.
At least Paul did not command it to be done as a sign of something.

Whether or not pagan babbling occurs is not the issue. What is is an unwillingness to believe what is actually recorded in God's word. To do so regarding any topic in the bible is not using wisdom. Something to consider is the enemy fighting for man's soul who comes to rob, kill and destroy does it by casting doubt on the very principles of God.

And you are right. Paul did not command people to speak in tongues. It is God who chose tongues as the sign. As scripture attests God communicates with a believer's renewed spirit in this way.

 

[Wansvic]

Speaking UNLEARNED known languages is impressive; but not babbling.

Do you believe Paul was lying when he penned these words?:
"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for NO MAN understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." 1 Cor. 14:2

 

[GWH]

Whether or not pagan babbling occurs is not the issue. What is is an unwillingness to believe what is actually recorded in God's word. To do so regarding any topic in the bible is not using wisdom. Something to consider is the enemy fighting for man's soul who comes to rob, kill and destroy does it by casting doubt on the very principles of God.

And you are right. Paul did not command people to speak in tongues. It is God who chose tongues as the sign. As scripture attests God communicates with a believer's renewed spirit in this way.

This issue is whether babbling is pagan (as in Matt. 6:9) or caused by God.
Unless the message is known, how can one be sure?
And as HeIsHere pointed out, the SIT caused by God in Acts as a sign was speaking known but unlearned languages.
Scripture attests that God communicates with believers via the Spirit of truth and love.

 

[GWH]

Do you believe Paul was lying when he penned these words?:
"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for NO MAN understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." 1 Cor. 14:2

Proof-texting is not sufficient to understand NT teaching regarding SIT.
Unless the message is known, how can one be sure whether it is inspired by God or Satan?

Again, regarding speaking in tongues, the original occurrence at Pentecost (in Acts 2:4-11) and for awhile longer was earthly languages given as a sign that fulfilled Joel 2:28-32 (cf. Isa. 28:11-12 cited in 1Cor.14:21), which reversed Babel and evangelized 3,000 people, thereby ensuring the planting of the first Christian church, but by the time of its occurrence in the church at Corinth it had morphed into mere pagan-like babbling, which Paul neither quashed nor commanded, writing that the gift would cease (1Cor. 13:8-13) but also that he exercised it more than anyone (1Cor. 14:18), thereby causing the confusion we have today.

I resolve the confusion by noting that if SIT were important it would be mentioned and even commanded in other epistles,
so the absence of affirming tongues in other Pauline epistles speaks volumes.

 

[Wansvic]

γλῶσσα (glōssa): The primary term for tongue or language in Koine Greek

The word in Greek means intelligible languages or the physical tongue therefore this means the people in this church at that time were speaking in various languages and this was causing confusion, hence the need for a translator.

It is quite simple actually.

According to Paul NO man understands the tongue/language spoken between God and man, this includes the individual speaking; he speaks mysteries. (1 Cor. 14:2) Paul confirms this in 1 Cor. 14:15-16: "I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding.

The Spiritual gift of tongues used in the church setting is translated by the Spirit and flows from an individual used in the the Gift of Interpretation.

Communicating with God in this way is a total act of faith. And the benefit of doing so will not be fully understood this side of Heaven.

 

[GWH]

According to Paul NO man understands the tongue/language spoken between God and man, this includes the individual speaking; he speaks mysteries. (1 Cor. 14:2) Paul confirms this in 1 Cor. 14:15-16: "I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding.

The Spiritual gift of tongues used in the church setting is translated by the Spirit and flows from an individual used in the the Gift of Interpretation.

Communicating with God in this way is a total act of faith. And the benefit of doing so will not be fully understood this side of Heaven.

You shoot yourself in the foot by failing to acknowledge that in 1Cor. 14:15-16 Paul affirms praying and singing with the Spirit AND understanding. Communicating with God in EVERY way is an act of faith (Rom. 1:17, 2Cor. 5:7).

 

[GWH]

I will.

1. "Here we are GWH, your opinion vs GOD'S word."
No, my opinion vs. your opinion regarding GW.
2. "I continue to ask GHW to explain or back up what he says with GOD'S word."
Yes, you repeatedly say/ask the same thing.
3. "and he either refuses to or just cant."
I did, but I refused to quarrel.
4. "First, baptism in water and being filled with God's Spirit are TWO separate things."
IMO WB symbolizes SB.
5. "In GOD's word water baptism is for remission of sins Acts 2:38, 22:16."
WB by John the Baptist may have derived from the ritual washings in Leviticus 14:8 & 15:4-27.
6. "Spirit baptism is when when JESUS fills us with HIS Spirit, the Holy Ghost."
I agree per Matthew 3:11.
7. "and we speak in tongues as described in the chapter and verse below."
And we love everyone as in Romans 5:8 & Galatians 5:22.
8. "None of this is my opinion but HIS WORD ONLY".
Your opinion does not jibe with much of GW.
9. "Acts describes SB as being signified by speaking in tongues."
Tongues in Acts 2 were earthly languages spoken by disciples who had not learned them. Mark 16:18 says they are immune to poison.
10. "GHW OPINION is Spirit baptism REPLACED water baptism."
No, see #4. IMO WB replaced circumcision. (Cf. Romans 4 & 6:3-4.)
11. "Being filled with the Holy Ghost means YOU ARE FILLED WITH LOVE."
Amen! (Matt. 22:37-40, 1John 4:7-21, John 13:35, Rom. 5:5, Gal. 5:6 & 22, etc.)
12. "Being filled with the Spirit and speaking in tongues was for that time."
No, tongues was a sign for some time, but love is a sign for all time. (1Corinthians 13)
13. "and was perverted by some into a faux gift of mere babbling."
Yes, which pagan religions practiced, and Paul discouraged in 1 Corinthians 14:19.
14. "The Kerygma - God's Requirement for Salvation":
Amen! See Lesson 2 in our website: <truthseekersfellowship.com>
15. "GW says WB was replaced with SB because they are two separate things."
Yes, GW in HB 7:18-10:1 teaches that the OC was superseded by the NT.
16. "one is an outward work that may be imitated, while the other is the inward faith in JESUS that is salvific."
Yes. We are saved by faith per Ephesians 2:8-9, although good works such as WB will follow per V.10.
17. "The Word: The accounts in the NT include both water baptism and speaking in tongues after receiving the infilling of the Holy Ghost as noted above." Only Acts associates WB with SIT. The epistles other than 1Corinthians 14 disassociate them.
18. "Just noticed this point: Yes, believers are either Spirit-filled or not, and love is the evidence of filling that justifies believing someone is filled (and the basis of spiritual unity) per John 13:35."
Yes, and also per Ephesians 3:16-19.
19. "Regarding speaking in tongues, the original occurrence at Pentecost..."
(in Acts 2:4-11) and for awhile longer was earthly languages given as a sign that fulfilled Joel 2:28-32 (cf. Isa. 28:11-12 cited in 1Cor.14:21), which reversed Babel and evangelized 3,000 people, thereby ensuring the planting of the first Christian church, but by the time of its occurrence in the church at Corinth it had morphed into a faux gift of mere babbling, which Paul tried to quash tactfully (1Cor. 14:19, possibly because pagan religions practiced it), writing that the gift would cease (1Cor. 13:8-13), so one should not be myopic and focus only on a problematic proof-text (1Cor. 14:18), ignoring the absence of affirming tongues in other Pauline epistles.
20.

Over...

Paul warned Christians to beware of Judaizers, who revert to teaching justification by observing the law (Gal. 4:8-5:12). In Phil. 3:1-9 Paul said, “Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord!… Watch out for those… mutilators of the flesh. For it is we who are the circumcision [cf. Rom. 2:29]… If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more:… in regard to the law, a Pharisee… as for legalistic righteousness, faultless. But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ… I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ–that comes from God and is by faith.”

Jesus taught that his righteousness (Matt. 5:10&20) surpassed and superseded that of those who obeyed and taught the law (cf. Matt. 12:5-12, 19:3-9, Heb. 7:18-10:1). The law is represented by John the Baptist in Matt. 3:11a, “I baptize you with water [WB] for repentance” [forgiveness of sins indicated in the Torah, cf. Rom. 7:4-8:17], and Spirit baptism (SB) is indicated in Matt. 3:11b, “but after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.”

However, some people (“Actsers”) focus on events in Acts such as WB and glossolalia rather than on teachings in the epistles about faith/SB being what is essential (“Faithers”). The book of Acts does not teach foundational Christian doctrine but merely records what occurred during the early days of the church era as the revelation of GRFS transitioned from OT beliefs to the NT doctrine that is taught in the epistles, which never command WB or tongues as signs of SB or as essential for salvation.

By the last of Paul’s epistles, WB came to be understood as a good but non-essential work or rite, like physical circumcision, and the basis for believing folks are filled with the HS is reflecting God’s love for everyone (Matt. 22:37-40, 1John 4:7-21, John 13:35, Rom. 5:5, Gal. 5:6 & 22, etc.). Then, like now, the rite is performed as an apt way of portraying saving faith in the atonement of Christ, even though the work is not required, just as physical circumcision was not required for salvation either per Paul in Romans 3:21-5:1.

Regarding speaking in tongues (SIT), the original occurrence at Pentecost (in Acts 2:4-11) and for awhile longer was earthly languages given as a sign that fulfilled Joel 2:28-32 (cf. Isa. 28:11-12 cited in 1Cor.14:21), which reversed Babel and evangelized 3,000 people, thereby ensuring the planting of the first Christian church, but by the time of its occurrence in the church at Corinth it had morphed into mere pagan-like babbling (cf. Matt. 6:9), which Paul neither quashed completely nor commanded, writing that the gift would cease (1Cor. 13:8-13) but also that he exercised it more than anyone (1Cor. 14:18), thereby causing confusion, which can be resolved by noting that if SIT were important it would be mentioned and even commanded in other epistles, so the absence of affirming tongues in other Pauline epistles speaks volumes.

 

[pinebeach]

You ignore the fact that pagans also babble, so that type of SIT aka ecstatic utterance is evidence of nothing.
At least Paul did not command it to be done as a sign of something.

Actually what you say here is not biblical. Paul state that tongues were a sign to unbelievers. This negates your last sentence and illustrates the constant error you present as 'truth.'
So then, tongues are for a sign, not to those believing, but to the unbelieving; but prophecy is not to the unbelieving, but to the believing. I Cor. 14:22

Why do you seem to believe that God visits pagan tongues upon those who love Him and trust in Him? Perhaps it is your obsession with trying to prove tongues are not valid today that creates that sad and constant dribbling against tongues that you favor.

 

[pinebeach]

Speaking UNLEARNED known languages is impressive; but not babbling.

If I spoke another language that you do not know, you might consider it to be babbling. How many languages do you speak?

1Earnestly pursue love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3But he who prophesies speaks to men for their edification, encouragement, and comfort. 4The one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

5I wish that all of you could speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets so that the church may be edified.

No one understands but God. You do not understand plain language in English or you would not insist all languages need to be understood by everyone. That is not what Paul states. For such an advocate of Paul's letters as you state you are, we constantly find you AGAINST what he wrote.

Paul does correct the misuse of tongues but he does not say do not speak in tongues ever again. Those who speak in tongues edify themself according to Paul and indeed, the spiritual gifts are given for the edification of the body (believers in Christ). What you say flies in the face of scripture and should be enough to alarm every person in this forum. You do not appear to be a genuine person.

 

[HeIsHere]

According to Paul NO man understands the tongue/language spoken between God and man, this includes the individual speaking; he speaks mysteries. (1 Cor. 14:2) Paul confirms this in 1 Cor. 14:15-16: "I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding.

The Spiritual gift of tongues used in the church setting is translated by the Spirit and flows from an individual used in the the Gift of Interpretation.

Communicating with God in this way is a total act of faith. And the benefit of doing so will not be fully understood this side of Heaven.

Yup, exactly what I explained, if you are not fluent in that foreign (earthly) language it is a mystery about what is being stated.

 

[GWH]

If I spoke another language that you do not know, you might consider it to be babbling. How many languages do you speak?

1Earnestly pursue love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3But he who prophesies speaks to men for their edification, encouragement, and comfort. 4The one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

5I wish that all of you could speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets so that the church may be edified.

No one understands but God. You do not understand plain language in English or you would not insist all languages need to be understood by everyone. That is not what Paul states. For such an advocate of Paul's letters as you state you are, we constantly find you AGAINST what he wrote.

Paul does correct the misuse of tongues but he does not say do not speak in tongues ever again. Those who speak in tongues edify themself according to Paul and indeed, the spiritual gifts are given for the edification of the body (believers in Christ). What you say flies in the face of scripture and should be enough to alarm every person in this forum. You do not appear to be a genuine person.

"I would rather have you prophesy... unless he interprets."

You also shot yourself in the foot.
If anyone flies in the face of Scripture, it is you.
You don't seem to understand English, much less other tongues.
Are you an ET?

Again, Paul taught regarding speaking in tongues (SIT) that the gift would cease (1Cor. 13:8-13) but unfortunately he did not say when and he also said that he SIT more than anyone (1Cor. 14:18), thereby causing confusion, which can be resolved by noting that if SIT were important it would be mentioned if not commanded in other epistles, so the absence of affirming tongues in other Pauline epistles speaks volumes.

 

[pinebeach]

"I would rather have you prophesy... unless he interprets."

You also shot yourself in the foot.
If anyone flies in the face of Scripture, it is you.
You don't seem to understand English, much less other tongues.
Are you an ET?

Again, Paul taught regarding speaking in tongues (SIT) that the gift would cease (1Cor. 13:8-13) but unfortunately he did not say when and he also said that he SIT more than anyone (1Cor. 14:18), thereby causing confusion, which can be resolved by noting that if SIT were important it would be mentioned if not commanded in other epistles, so the absence of affirming tongues in other Pauline epistles speaks volumes.

These are instructions. You do not value instructions from what I have seen. Your dishonest display of angst because it is something you cannot control is now well documented by your own posts.

See, Paul never said that people were perfect nor did he try to control others, which is something you are trying very hard to do. Your sad attempt to ignore any and all scripture that actually explains what tongues is about is a desire to control how others view the gifts.

You try to say you believe in your understanding of 'real' tongues but then give yourself away by trying to cite I Cor. 13: 8-13 as proof that tongues will cease. Paul indeed did not say 'when' but he did say DO NOT DESPISE THEM AND DO NOT FORBID THEM.

 

[GWH]

These are instructions. You do not value instructions from what I have seen. Your dishonest display of angst because it is something you cannot control is now well documented by your own posts.

See, Paul never said that people were perfect nor did he try to control others, which is something you are trying very hard to do. Your sad attempt to ignore any and all scripture that actually explains what tongues is about is a desire to control how others view the gifts.

You try to say you believe in your understanding of 'real' tongues but then give yourself away by trying to cite I Cor. 13: 8-13 as proof that tongues will cease. Paul indeed did not say 'when' but he did say DO NOT DESPISE THEM AND DO NOT FORBID THEM.

I neither despise nor forbid SIT,
I merely doubt you SIT.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

So if a truth is IMPORTANT to us it must be mentioned in ALL the epistles? Where is this rule elucidated in the scriptures themselves? Second, is this test of authority applicable only to the EPISTLES of PAUL? What about the examples shown in scripture? Revelation. Must even the teachings of Jesus be judged by whether they are commanded in the letters of Paul? Are they not also mandatory or are we given more leeway because of their location in only some of the writings of Have we reached this final goal once for all or do we still need instruction? Paul said this would go on...: 13...until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ (Ephesians 4:13)

I do not see that we have ever attained this goal.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

pinebeach:

So if a truth is IMPORTANT to us it must be mentioned in ALL the epistles? Where is this rule elucidated in the scriptures themselves? Second, is this test of authority applicable only to the EPISTLES of PAUL? What about the examples shown in scripture? Revelation. Must even the teachings of Jesus be judged by whether they are commanded in the letters of Paul? Are they not also mandatory or are we given more leeway because of their location in only some of the writings of Have we reached this final goal once for all or do we still need instruction? Paul said this would go on...: 13...until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ (Ephesians 4:13)

I do not see that we have ever attained this goal.

 

[pinebeach]

I neither despise nor forbid SIT,
I merely doubt you SIT.

Calling tongues that the Bible identifies as understood by God babble, as you have done over and over, is something you will always be remembered for but not with the fondness you desire

 

[GWH]

pinebeach:

Yes, just like you posted the same thing twice just now because you thought it was so important.

 

[GWH]

Calling tongues that the Bible identifies as understood by God babble, as you have done over and over, is something you will always be remembered for but not with the fondness you desire

I don't call genuine SIT babble, but only pagan SIT, so remember me pointing out over and over that Jesus called pagan prayer babble in Matt. 6:7. You can also quote me as doubting you SIT as long as you credit me with obeying 1Thes. 5:21.

 

[Ouch]

Quote me saying that I forbid anyone from speaking in genuine tongues.
Quote Paul forbidding anyone from speaking in known languages.

I agree with you, I don't think you have forbid anyone from speaking in genuine tongues.

But that's because you don't even believe when a person is filled with the spirit they will speak in tongues but love only.

So you have never expericed bing filled with HIS spirit, according to HIS word.

In stead it's looks to me like all you do is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.