Grace and Law.

[markss]

We need to die to the law of sin in order to be free to obey the Law of God, not the other way around.

Scripture is plain:

Romans 7:1-4 KJV
1) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2) For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3) So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Much love!

 

[Soyeong]

Jesus lives in me, and He is my Law. He informs me what He wants me to do, this is my Law. He shows me what it means to love others, that is my Law. He leads me away from what is not good, this is my Law. I know it's Him, I know it's real, when my character is what the Bible describes of God's children.

Jesus is not teaching me to obey a list of rules, that were actually a covenant with a particular nation, He is transforming me into a different person,

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of God was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message. Jesus also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of God and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6). So Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Law of God by word and by example and we can't follow him instead of following what he taught, but rather that is the way that we get to live when he is living in us.

The Law of God describes the life of someone who has been transformed by Christ as it describes the life of Christ. God's character traits are the fruits of the Spirit and the Law of God is His instructions for how to embody His character traits, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it (Ezekiel 36:26-27), and we can't embody God's character traits instead of obeying His instructions for how to do that. In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God.

not the man of flesh, as those for whom the Law was given (the disobedient and ungodly), but the man of spirit, living according to the Holy Spirit.

You will not find that in Exodus or Leviticus or Jeremiah.

If someone says that the Law of God is only for the disobedient in order to justify their freedom to be disobedient, then they are someone that the Law of God is for.

Should I tell Jesus, No, I'm not going to let you personally lead me, after all, I have your covenant with those other people that I'm going pick out the commands I'm going to "obey", instead of simply living and walking with you?

Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4), so Jesus personally leading us to be a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it.

There is nothing wrong or bad about the Law, the problem is that man does not keep it. You do not keep it. No one does. No one can. God made that happen.


Much love!

In Romans 10:5-10, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that the Law of God is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as something that no one keep. Moreover, there are many examples in the Bible of people who have kept the Law of God, such as with those in Joshua 22:1-3, Luke 1:5-6, Revelation 14:12, and Revelation 22:14.

It remains true:

We are not regenerated due to our obedience, we are regenerated due to our trust in Jesus Christ.

Much love!

God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalm 19:7), so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in His law, and it is contradictory to think that we should trust in God instead of trusting in His instructions. Likewise, it is contradictory to think that we should trust God's Word made flesh instead of obediently trusting in God's Word.

 

[Gideon300]

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of God was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message. Jesus also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of God and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6). So Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Law of God by word and by example and we can't follow him instead of following what he taught, but rather that is the way that we get to live when he is living in us.

The Law of God describes the life of someone who has been transformed by Christ as it describes the life of Christ. God's character traits are the fruits of the Spirit and the Law of God is His instructions for how to embody His character traits, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it (Ezekiel 36:26-27), and we can't embody God's character traits instead of obeying His instructions for how to do that. In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God.


If someone says that the Law of God is only for the disobedient in order to justify their freedom to be disobedient, then they are someone that the Law of God is for.


Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4), so Jesus personally leading us to be a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it.


In Romans 10:5-10, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that the Law of God is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as something that no one keep. Moreover, there are many examples in the Bible of people who have kept the Law of God, such as with those in Joshua 22:1-3, Luke 1:5-6, Revelation 14:12, and Revelation 22:14.


God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalm 19:7), so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in His law, and it is contradictory to think that we should trust in God instead of trusting in His instructions. Likewise, it is contradictory to think that we should trust God's Word made flesh instead of obediently trusting in God's Word.

You deny the word of God. The Word of God tells you who and what the law is for and you reject that out of hand. The only thing I trust the law to do is convict me of my need of a saviour. It does that well enough.

Don't lie and say that you keep God's law perfectly. Doing the best that you can is not acceptable to God. So the basis of you salvation is your works and you are therefore condemned by your own words.

 

[Soyeong]

Scripture is plain:

Romans 7:1-4 KJV
1) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2) For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3) So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Much love!

In Romans 7, Paul said that the Law of God is good, that he wanted to do good, that he delighted in obeying it, and that served it with his mind in contrast with the law of sin, which was working within his members to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do, which was waging war against the law of his mind, which held him captive, and which he served with his flesh. In Romans 8:1-7, Paul said that the Law of the Spirit has freed us from the law of sin and death, that Jesus freed us from the law of sin so that we can be free to meet the righteous requirement of the Law of God, and he contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God. So the Law of God is the good that Paul wanted to do while the law of sin is what was hindering him from doing the good that he wanted to do.

In Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over him, which clearly is not referring the Law of God, which is the good that he wanted to do, but rather that is the role of the law of sin. In Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and in Romans 7:7, the Law of God is not sinful but how we know what sin is, so we are still under the Law of God. In Romans 6:16, Paul contrasted these to directions by saying that we are slaves to the one that we obey, either the law of sin, which leads to death, or obedience to the Law of God, which leads to righteousness. In Romans 6:17-23, we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves as saves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life is Christ, which is the gift of God. So being a doer of the Law of God His is gift of eternal life, and if you're not careful, then you can interpret Romans 7:1-4 as saying that we need to die to God's gift of eternal life rather than die to the law of sin.

In Romans 7:1-4, at no point was the woman set free from needing to obey the Law of God and if she were to get married to a second husband after the death of her first husband, then she would still be required to refrain from committing adultery, so there is nothing that leads to the conclusion in verse 4 that in the same way we have died to the Law of God and have been set free to become doers of what it reveals to be sin. We do not need to die to God's instructions for how to unified with Christ in order to become unified with Christ, but rather we need to die to a law that was hindering us from being unified with Christ, namely the law of sin. Likewise, we do not need to die to God's instructions for how to bear fruit for Him in order to bear fruit for Him, but rather we need to die to a law that was hindering us from bearing fruit for God, namely the law of sin. In Romans 7:5, it refers to a law that stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death, which again clearly does not refer to the Law of God, which is the goo that he wanted to do, but rather that is the role of the law of sin.

 

[Soyeong]

You deny the word of God. The Word of God tells you who and what the law is for and you reject that out of hand. The only thing I trust the law to do is convict me of my need of a saviour. It does that well enough.

I do not deny the Word God. On the other hands, the Law of Moses is the Word of God, which you deny. If you agree that is by the Law of Moses that we hav knowledge of what sin is and that we should refrain from doing what God has revealed to be sin, then you should agree that we should obey it. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Law of Moses that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so Jesus graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it, so the Law of Moses does not just convict us our need of a Savior but also teaches us the way that that he is saving us.

Don't lie and say that you keep God's law perfectly. Doing the best that you can is not acceptable to God. So the basis of you salvation is your works and you are therefore condemned by your own words.

I have not claimed to keep the Law of God perfectly, moreover, there a particular reason why I would need to keep it perfectly and there is nothing about this that condemns me. The way to be acceptable to God is certainly not by refusing to have faith in His law. In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far form him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Law of Moses, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.

 

[TylerTaws1989]

I know that covenant is an agreement between people when God made his covenants with Abraham and Noah God made an agreement between God and Abraham as well as God and Noah. I know that the Pharisees taught and spoke of the old traditional Jewish laws and oracles. A Gentile is any non-jewish person but a Pharisee is a section of ancient Judaism. Rabbis study and teach Judaism. A Samaritan is a type of Jew that only recognizes Moses as a prophet and they go by the five books of Moses also called the Torah or Penteuch. So in the New Testament you have Pharisees, Samaritans and Gentiles far as different biblical tribes of people and faith. The twelve apostles and the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[Soyeong]

God's character traits are eternal, so there is a reality that is true about the way to embody God's character traits that was true before God made any covenants with man, that has been revealed through God's covenants, and that is eternal and cumulatively valid regardless of which covenant someone is under. For example, God's righteousness is eternal (Psalm 119:142), therefore all of God's righteous laws are also eternal (Psalm 119:160), so anyone who wants to know God through embodying His righteousness will consider any instructions that God has given for how to do that to be valid regardless of which covenant they are under, if any. For instance, being a doer of charity was a way to embody God's righteousness before God made any covenants with man, so that is an eternally valid way to know God and if there could never be a covenant where it is sinful to be a doer of charity.

Jesus was a Jewish rabbi who spent his ministry teaching his followers how to practice Judaism by setting a sinless example for how to walk in obedience to the Torah and people who want to become his follower while wanting nothing to do with following the religion that he practiced are extremely confused.

 

[markss]

The way to be acceptable to God is certainly not by refusing to have faith in His law.

This is the heart. If you believe that you keep the Law, and in doing so this makes you acceptible to God, you are fallen from grace.

Faith in His Law? You've just replace Jesus with an ancient covenant that was never yours.

Much love!

 

[markss]

that Jesus freed us from the law of sin so that we can be free to meet the righteous requirement of the Law of God,

This is not what the Scripture says. You've misrepresented God's Word to make your point. That's not good.

Romans 8:1-4 KJV
1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

You've changed "in us" to "by us". A small but important distinction.

Stop changing Scripture.

Much love!

 

[Soyeong]

This is not what the Scripture says. You've misrepresented God's Word to make your point. That's not good.

Romans 8:1-4 KJV
1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

You've changed "in us" to "by us". A small but important distinction.

Stop changing Scripture.

Much love!

The Greek word used can mean "by", though I don't see a significant difference in meaning either way:

Strong's Greek: 1722. ἐν (en) -- in, on, at, by, with, among

en: in, on, at, by, with, among

In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God, which means that those who are walking in the Spirit do submit to the Law of God and its righteous requirement is fulfilled by/in us.

This is the heart. If you believe that you keep the Law, and in doing so this makes you acceptible to God, you are fallen from grace.

Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4), so there is a direct connection between our salvation and being a doer of the Law of God and the key is to correctly understand what that connection is and is not. We can't earn our salvation or acceptance with God even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God because it was never given as a way of doing that in the first place, so that is not the connection. However, we can do works that embody our faith, such as with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith through his works, and it is by that faith alone apart from works done in order to earn it was the result that we attain salvation and acceptance with God.

In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace thorough faith alone, this is what it means to be under grace, and it would be absurd to think that he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him how to fall from grace.

Faith in His Law? You've just replace Jesus with an ancient covenant that was never yours.

Much love!

God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalm 19:7), so the way to trust in God for salvation is by obediently trusting in His law and would be contradictory to think that we should have faith in God but not in His instructions. The Law of God is God's Word and Jesus is God's Word made flesh, so it is contradictory to replace him with following his example of embodying God's Word.

 

[markss]

We can't earn our salvation or acceptance with God even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God because it was never given as a way of doing that in the first place, so that is not the connection.

I'm glad to hear you say this.

Much love!

 

[Soyeong]

I'm glad to hear you say this.

Much love!

The content of a gift can be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari, where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving in order to experience driving it, but where doing that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to drive it. In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not extrinsically required to have first done those works in obedience to the Law of Moses in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not extrinsically required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather we are intrinsically required to be a doer of those works because God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of them is part of the content of His gift of salvation. The Law of Moses was never given as a way of earning our salvation as the result of being good enough, but rather it was given in order to teach us how to experience the content of our gift of salvation.