GRACE VS LAW OR GRACE WITH LAW ?

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Mar 11, 2025
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12
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#1
Hi dear brethren!

This is Iamhisson

The relationship between grace and law has been a point of deep theological reflection throughout the history of Christianity. On one hand, we find the law, which is given as a guide for righteous living, a standard that reflects God's holiness and justice. The law, first revealed in the Old Testament, provides the framework for understanding right and wrong and how humanity should live in covenant with God.

On the other hand, grace is God's unmerited favor, freely given to humanity, despite our inability to keep the law perfectly. It is the gift of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, who fulfilled the law's demands and bore the penalty of sin on our behalf. Grace stands in contrast to the law in that it is not earned or deserved but is a demonstration of God’s love and mercy (Ephesians 2:8-9).

But the question arises : Does grace replace the law, or do they coexist? Paul, in his letters to the early churches, addresses this tension. In Romans 6:14, he writes, “For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.” Yet, in Romans 3:31, he also asks, “Do we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.”

This tension between grace and law is not merely a theoretical debate but is vital for understanding the Christian life. How does the believer navigate the demands of holiness while relying on the sufficiency of grace? Is there a place for both grace and law in the Christian journey, or must one dominate the other?

Through careful study of Scripture, we will explore the foundational truths of both grace and law, and consider whether they are mutually exclusive or if, together, they form a deeper, more complete understanding of God’s plan for salvation and sanctification.

What's your mind? I would appreciate your contribution on such an interesting topic that tends to separate Christians.
 
Oct 24, 2012
17,410
719
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#2
Me, I see the Law of God is perfect in itself. Whenever I try to do it in unredeemed flesh (first birth) I see "I" can't do it perfectly.
Through the Bible message to me given me by God, I see God has continued to love us all, in spite of our personal failures and imperfections of us all
That began at the first Adam in his "Unbelief" to God that death would happen if ate from that tree, since he saw Eve not die when she ate from it, right in front of him
He then ate, saw he was as good as dead in awareness of right and wrong, and ran off to hide with Eve.
God did not kill either one. God had Mercy, with a sacrifice of an animal and clothed them. Then, put them out of that garden to till the ground for themselves and find out they are not God and now they thought they were as good as God and that has gone on since by offspring ever since.
God has continued to get us to see to behave and do right, by telling us what is right.
The Law came in for what?????????????/
To show us our not being able to be perfect. after have been under Law, I see this inability of me not able to be perfect, that I need God as my savior for me to be able to live forever with God, not in a lake of fire eventually.


Authorized (King James) Version

1 Tim 1:1-11

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; 2 unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. 5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: 6 from which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7 desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. 8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Hebrews 7:16
who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Romans 7:9
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

The Law makes people aware of sin and deserve death, not being able to be perfect
Romans 7:10
And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Romans 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We are made aware of our need under Law to do perfect, yet no one but Son could ever do that, so he did that once for us all
Hebrews 10:10
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

John 19:30
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

son did it for us, so in belief to being risen for us we see to do it without having to do it. We, at least me chose to do it as led by Father, the Holy Spirit to love all over the few I used to only love those that loved me back
Now all, feed all as led, not as I suppose I have to, no more self work
God's perfect done work of Son works through me at least, as I know others see this truth too and love all too. Trusting Daddy's, lead through them too


Authorized (King James) Version

John 4:23-24

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Dead to the flesh nature alive to Father and Son in Daddy's spirit and Truth given them to do it humbly, not proudly and no more guilt, now new being led new in Father's Spirit and Truth

Law and Grace are in conflict with one another, whenever anyone tries to do Law, these get to see this conflict is their own first born flesh nature, that God can remove if we trust for that to happen, in trust to it is done for the new to begin in us and love as are loved first by God through Son as risen where this new life is at for us all to stand in and not be moved, thank you
 
Jun 30, 2015
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#3
Scripture is reasonably clear on the subject, but human nature prefers the self-exaltation of pretending to follow the law. Christ is the end of the law for those who believe (Romans 10:4).
 
Jul 3, 2015
62,934
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#4

Galatians 5:14, Ecclesiastes 12:13, Romans 13:10b The entire law is fulfilled in a single decree: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” When all has been heard, the conclusion of the matter is this: Fear God and keep His commandments, because this is the whole duty of man. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
 
Oct 24, 2012
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#6
This would include feed your enemies, God's enemies
It is this love given us in risen Son that overcame death for us to stand in and not be guilty anymore or in pride either anymore being dead to sin. too busy praising God, then one is freed from sin, too busy praising God.
Amazing we can do it without taking any credit for it in doing it as led by Father to do the same as Jesus did it for us all first. Revealed how by listening to Father alone and then we do as led in love and mercy to all, at least me, I see this now after doing numerous failures under Law first, Now seeing. Romans 7:10 as well as Paul wrote this truth to us all to see as Father reveals this to us all in his continued love and mercy to us all. Not to ever take it for granted for me at least and everyone else is what I now see presently in Thanksgiving and praise with all sin as far as the east is from the west, taken away by Son for us to love in the same mercy and truth given us to all, whether another believes this or not
A perplexity to straighten out, Law verses grace, I choose Father and Son in grace to stand in, made as if never sinned and if do, we remain having our advocate Jesus the righteous one 1 John 2:1-12
Galatians 3
 
Oct 19, 2024
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#7
Hi dear brethren!

This is Iamhisson

The relationship between grace and law has been a point of deep theological reflection throughout the history of Christianity. On one hand, we find the law, which is given as a guide for righteous living, a standard that reflects God's holiness and justice. The law, first revealed in the Old Testament, provides the framework for understanding right and wrong and how humanity should live in covenant with God.

On the other hand, grace is God's unmerited favor, freely given to humanity, despite our inability to keep the law perfectly. It is the gift of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, who fulfilled the law's demands and bore the penalty of sin on our behalf. Grace stands in contrast to the law in that it is not earned or deserved but is a demonstration of God’s love and mercy (Ephesians 2:8-9).

But the question arises : Does grace replace the law, or do they coexist? Paul, in his letters to the early churches, addresses this tension. In Romans 6:14, he writes, “For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.” Yet, in Romans 3:31, he also asks, “Do we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.”

This tension between grace and law is not merely a theoretical debate but is vital for understanding the Christian life. How does the believer navigate the demands of holiness while relying on the sufficiency of grace? Is there a place for both grace and law in the Christian journey, or must one dominate the other?

Through careful study of Scripture, we will explore the foundational truths of both grace and law, and consider whether they are mutually exclusive or if, together, they form a deeper, more complete understanding of God’s plan for salvation and sanctification.

What's your mind? I would appreciate your contribution on such an interesting topic that tends to separate Christians.
It is good that you have a historical perspective, so we realize that God revealed Himself and His Will/Word first as Creator (RM 1:20) and then as moral law/requirement perceived via conscience (RM 2:12-16), which are called general revelation. Then Abraham became conscious of God and was saved because of his faith about 2000 B.C. before Moses promulgated laws about 1200 B.C. and was followed by Psalms and prophets who understood that the Gentiles were included in God's plan of salvation (POS). Meanwhile most of humanity only had the opportunity to perceive God/God's moral will via general revelation.

Finally, in the fullness of times Christ fulfilled the OT law and Messianic prophecies by sacrificing himself for humanity's sins and then resurrecting to begin the church era as evangelistic efforts slowly spread the Gospel to Europe and then to its colonies and other nations via missionaries, although there are still many pockets of the globe where it is only vaguely revealed if at all.

But now, we who have knowledge of the Gospel are able via the internet to discuss Scripture and explore how the OT law and NT grace are related. We know that the Pharisees perceived such tension that they felt Christ should be crucified, but Christians who learn the teachings of Paul know that he viewed the OT as foreshadowing or preparation for revelation of the NT mystery or POS.
 
Mar 11, 2025
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#8
Scripture is reasonably clear on the subject, but human nature prefers the self-exaltation of pretending to follow the law. Christ is the end of the law for those who believe (Romans 10:4).
You're absolutely right on this point. However, some theories actively connect the Law to works, citing James’ statements: “Show me your faith, and I will show you my deeds” and “Faith without works is dead.” Many people feel uncertain about their salvation unless they see a tangible manifestation of “good works” in their lives. How do you interpret this relationship between faith, works, and the Law? Do you think there is a distinction between the Law and works, and if so, how do you see their roles in the context of salvation?
 
Oct 24, 2012
17,410
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#9
You're absolutely right on this point. However, some theories actively connect the Law to works, citing James’ statements: “Show me your faith, and I will show you my deeds” and “Faith without works is dead.” Many people feel uncertain about their salvation unless they see a tangible manifestation of “good works” in their lives. How do you interpret this relationship between faith, works, and the Law? Do you think there is a distinction between the Law and works, and if so, how do you see their roles in the context of salvation?
I interpret, this :
‘the works, James is talking of is
the done work of Son, so we can be born new in Spirit and truth. Doing the done work of love and mercy for us all, not condemning anyone or excusing anyone since we are forgiven by God through the done work of Son for us to love all as called
that is what I think James was speaking of
 
Oct 19, 2024
3,785
846
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#10
You're absolutely right on this point. However, some theories actively connect the Law to works, citing James’ statements: “Show me your faith, and I will show you my deeds” and “Faith without works is dead.” Many people feel uncertain about their salvation unless they see a tangible manifestation of “good works” in their lives. How do you interpret this relationship between faith, works, and the Law? Do you think there is a distinction between the Law and works, and if so, how do you see their roles in the context of salvation?[/QUOTE

I already shared some of my thoughts, and here are a few more:

The Old Testament (OT) indicates that God chose the Jewish culture for the purpose of providing Messiah, through whom the world would be blessed or saved (GN 22:18, IS 42:6, 49:6, JL 2:28& 32, MIC 4:2-3, ZPH 3:8-9, ZCH 2:11, 14:9&16), and the NT proclaims that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah or Christ (ACTS 2:36, RM 1:1-4, HB 1:1-4, 3:3-6). It is tragic that the person God has ordained to be the head of one worldwide body of believers (JN 17:20-23, EPH 1:9-10 & 3:6, CL 1:18-20, PHP 2:9-11) is rejected by so many who claim to be theists. And it is ironic that this gemstone, which is the foundation and cornerstone of ultimate reality (EPH 2:20), is the stumbling-stone (1PT 2:6-8) to faith in GRFS for many souls (1CR 1:22-25). Messiah/Christ is the key stone.

Sinful humanity retains the image of God or moral free will, so every normal adult soul is able by faith to choose between these two options (cf. DT 30:19). That is why Paul went “every Sabbath to the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks” (ACTS 18:4)! “He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.” (ACTS 28:23b) “Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. (ACTS 28:24) They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul made this final statement: The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet, “You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving, for this people’s heart has become calloused.” (ACTS 28:25-27a, cf. 2TM 3:7)

A crisis that threatened a Philippian jailer with death prompted him to ask Paul and Silas the most important question in life: “What must I do to be saved?” (ACTS 16:30) This question is most important, because—as sinful and mortal souls—we need saving from corruption, both moral and physical. We need saving from physical death if we value or enjoy life, and we need saving from immorality or evil-doing if it results in unhappy existence, especially after this lifetime.T

The reply of Paul and Silas was this: “Believe in the Lord Jesus.” (ACTS 16:31) This is GRFS in a nutshell. Jesus Himself expressed GRFS even more succinctly using three, four and five letter words: “Ask… seek… knock…” (MT 7:7). As Hebrews 11:6 states: “he [God] rewards those who earnestly seek him” (cf. IS 45:19). Seeking God is the beginning of saving faith, and not seeking God or rejecting His salvation in Christ is the essence of evil atheism or faith in I-dolatry (RM 3:11, 1:18-23).
 
Mar 11, 2025
11
12
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#11
I interpret, this :
‘the works, James is talking of is
the done work of Son, so we can be born new in Spirit and truth. Doing the done work of love and mercy for us all, not condemning anyone or excusing anyone since we are forgiven by God through the done work of Son for us to love all as called
that is what I think James was speaking of
Do you assume that when we are born again, we do not have to do anything to please God? Otherwise, what can we do when we are aware of the finished work of the Cross? Should we just fold our arms and confess our salvation recklessly?
 
Oct 11, 2023
966
128
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#12
Hi dear brethren!

This is Iamhisson

The relationship between grace and law has been a point of deep theological reflection throughout the history of Christianity. On one hand, we find the law, which is given as a guide for righteous living, a standard that reflects God's holiness and justice. The law, first revealed in the Old Testament, provides the framework for understanding right and wrong and how humanity should live in covenant with God.

On the other hand, grace is God's unmerited favor, freely given to humanity, despite our inability to keep the law perfectly. It is the gift of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, who fulfilled the law's demands and bore the penalty of sin on our behalf. Grace stands in contrast to the law in that it is not earned or deserved but is a demonstration of God’s love and mercy (Ephesians 2:8-9).

But the question arises : Does grace replace the law, or do they coexist? Paul, in his letters to the early churches, addresses this tension. In Romans 6:14, he writes, “For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.” Yet, in Romans 3:31, he also asks, “Do we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.”

This tension between grace and law is not merely a theoretical debate but is vital for understanding the Christian life. How does the believer navigate the demands of holiness while relying on the sufficiency of grace? Is there a place for both grace and law in the Christian journey, or must one dominate the other?

Through careful study of Scripture, we will explore the foundational truths of both grace and law, and consider whether they are mutually exclusive or if, together, they form a deeper, more complete understanding of God’s plan for salvation and sanctification.

What's your mind? I would appreciate your contribution on such an interesting topic that tends to separate Christians.
Hello. If God were acting against His grace when He taught us His law, then He would be divided against Himself, which is absurd, but rather the Bible shows that God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law. For example, in Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this is what it means to be under grace and this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.

The Bible can speak against being required to do something for an incorrect reason without speaking against being required to do it for the correct reason, so the Bible can speak against the common misconception that our salvation requires us to have first obeyed God’s law in order to earn it as the result without speaking against our salvation requiring us to choose to be a doer of God’s law because that is part of the content of what God’s gift of salvation is. Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while our lives continued to be directed at being doers of sin, so there must be an aspect of our gift of salvation from sin that we are experiencing in the present directing our lives towards being a doer of God’s law. In other words, Jesus graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of God’s law is intrinsically part of his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it.

In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so doing those works has absolutely nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation as the result, but rather God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of those works is intrinsically part of His gift of saving us from not being a doer of those works. In Titus 2:14, Jesus did not just give himself to pay the penalty for our sin, but also to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so both are aspects of our gift of salvation.

In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to teaching us how to experience knowing God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life (John 17:3), and which is why Jesus said affirmed that the way to inherit the gift of eternal life is by obeying its greatest two commandments (Luke 10:25-28).

This is also why those who understand grace are not permitted to transgress the Law of God (Romans 6:15). In Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that we aren’t under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe the Law of God, but rather that is the role of the law of sin.
 
Oct 11, 2023
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#13
Me, I see the Law of God is perfect in itself. Whenever I try to do it in unredeemed flesh (first birth) I see "I" can't do it perfectly.
Through the Bible message to me given me by God, I see God has continued to love us all, in spite of our personal failures and imperfections of us all
That began at the first Adam in his "Unbelief" to God that death would happen if ate from that tree, since he saw Eve not die when she ate from it, right in front of him
He then ate, saw he was as good as dead in awareness of right and wrong, and ran off to hide with Eve.
God did not kill either one. God had Mercy, with a sacrifice of an animal and clothed them. Then, put them out of that garden to till the ground for themselves and find out they are not God and now they thought they were as good as God and that has gone on since by offspring ever since.
God has continued to get us to see to behave and do right, by telling us what is right.
The Law came in for what?????????????/
To show us our not being able to be perfect. after have been under Law, I see this inability of me not able to be perfect, that I need God as my savior for me to be able to live forever with God, not in a lake of fire eventually.

Authorized (King James) Version

1 Tim 1:1-11

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; 2 unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. 5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: 6 from which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7 desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. 8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Hebrews 7:16
who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Romans 7:9
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

The Law makes people aware of sin and deserve death, not being able to be perfect
Romans 7:10
And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Romans 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We are made aware of our need under Law to do perfect, yet no one but Son could ever do that, so he did that once for us all
Hebrews 10:10
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

John 19:30
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

son did it for us, so in belief to being risen for us we see to do it without having to do it. We, at least me chose to do it as led by Father, the Holy Spirit to love all over the few I used to only love those that loved me back
Now all, feed all as led, not as I suppose I have to, no more self work
God's perfect done work of Son works through me at least, as I know others see this truth too and love all too. Trusting Daddy's, lead through them too


Authorized (King James) Version

John 4:23-24

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Dead to the flesh nature alive to Father and Son in Daddy's spirit and Truth given them to do it humbly, not proudly and no more guilt, now new being led new in Father's Spirit and Truth
God's law came with instructions for what to do when His children sinned, so it never requires us to have perfect obedience. Repentance doesn't doesn't change the fact that we have not had perfect obedience, so if we needed to have perfect obedience, then repentance would have no value, but the fact that repentance has value means that we are not required to have perfect obedience. In Romans 10:5-8, it references Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So they were offered the same choice between the Tree of Knowledge and the Tree of Life and it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as the need for perfect obedience.

Law and Grace are in conflict with one another, whenever anyone tries to do Law, these get to see this conflict is their own first born flesh nature, that God can remove if we trust for that to happen, in trust to it is done for the new to begin in us and love as are loved first by God through Son as risen where this new life is at for us all to stand in and not be moved, thank you
It is absurd to suggest that God's grace is in conflict with God's law as if a house divided against itself could stand. In Psalms 119:29, he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so that is what it means to be under grace.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
20,334
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#14
Hi dear brethren!

This is Iamhisson

The relationship between grace and law has been a point of deep theological reflection throughout the history of Christianity. On one hand, we find the law, which is given as a guide for righteous living, a standard that reflects God's holiness and justice. The law, first revealed in the Old Testament, provides the framework for understanding right and wrong and how humanity should live in covenant with God.

On the other hand, grace is God's unmerited favor, freely given to humanity, despite our inability to keep the law perfectly. It is the gift of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, who fulfilled the law's demands and bore the penalty of sin on our behalf. Grace stands in contrast to the law in that it is not earned or deserved but is a demonstration of God’s love and mercy (Ephesians 2:8-9).

But the question arises : Does grace replace the law, or do they coexist? Paul, in his letters to the early churches, addresses this tension. In Romans 6:14, he writes, “For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.” Yet, in Romans 3:31, he also asks, “Do we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.”

This tension between grace and law is not merely a theoretical debate but is vital for understanding the Christian life. How does the believer navigate the demands of holiness while relying on the sufficiency of grace? Is there a place for both grace and law in the Christian journey, or must one dominate the other?

Through careful study of Scripture, we will explore the foundational truths of both grace and law, and consider whether they are mutually exclusive or if, together, they form a deeper, more complete understanding of God’s plan for salvation and sanctification.

What's your mind? I would appreciate your contribution on such an interesting topic that tends to separate Christians.
I would say they coexist because his law is basically just human courtesy don't steal don't kill love thy neightbor ect. but his grace is there for when we fall short so that in place of our failing his grace abounds
 
Jun 30, 2015
26,114
14,095
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#15
You're absolutely right on this point. However, some theories actively connect the Law to works, citing James’ statements: “Show me your faith, and I will show you my deeds” and “Faith without works is dead.” Many people feel uncertain about their salvation unless they see a tangible manifestation of “good works” in their lives. How do you interpret this relationship between faith, works, and the Law? Do you think there is a distinction between the Law and works, and if so, how do you see their roles in the context of salvation?
The Law is what was given through Moses. It's role in salvation is to convict us of our sinfulness and need of a Saviour. "Works" in this context are the result of faith in Christ. Because we believe, we act.
 
Oct 24, 2012
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#16
I see it in an nutshell
Believe God (Father of risen Son), receive from God, God's security being sealed by God Eph 1:13. Phil 1:6
Receive and see, for God will not quit working on anyone to see this amazing grace given to appreciate and not have to do it. Actually agree with God and choose to do it and willingly then do it without any credit to self in doing it. seeing it happen through you

Paul talked of this in Phil 3 about how he gave up under Law, that he saw him as best at doing that perfectly, gave that up to win the risen Christ and not be under Law any longer.
Yet saw to uphold Law as good, it is not the law itself, it is us our first nature first born birth in selfishness that, unless one agrees with God between God and them, the selfishness will not leave otherwise is what I see now, that happened in me after trying to do Law perfectly under Law that kept me sinning over and over and over again

Now, I am by no means saying I am perfect, no way. I am saying God is and God works through his kids as his kids continue to remain willing to learn from any and all mistakes we all have made or make in any future event
Therefore any sin, becomes past so fast, even before anyone can blink an eyebrow and before Father that one and many remain forgiven, reconciled by God in Son for them.
This is amazing grace, that Father has continued in from day one in the fall of the first Adam, not completely revealed until the risen Son for us all
Believe, receive and eventually see
 
Oct 24, 2012
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#17
Do you assume that when we are born again, we do not have to do anything to please God? Otherwise, what can we do when we are aware of the finished work of the Cross? Should we just fold our arms and confess our salvation recklessly?
This, you just said, the view given from religion(s) because of our first born flesh failures.

Religion, leaders, will do their best to keep anyone under their thumb as if they are better than others, for us to award them and they use our earnings to get whatever they want here and now.
You, I see do not see this truth yet, are in process also, not yet made perfect in love.
Read the Bible in Jesus's rebukes to the Pharisees, then see the modern day Pharisees, sitting in Moses's seat. I am not accusing or excusing anyone or anything, just calling reality as reality is.
I am stating God loves us all y'all, otherwise Son would not have gone to that cross willingly at all to first reconcile us all to himself (2 Cor 5:16-20) that is done forever by Son for everyone to see and stand in thankful belief, at least me.

it is not taking this amazing grace for granted as many do today as I did for a while at first too, not understanding the truth I just stated to you now also.
Since, from the First (Old Testament) no-one could enter God's rest, but very few. As they went through that desert for forty years and did not enter because of unbelief to God just loves them to be able to rest in peace and love all, not just those that love them back, anymore.
you interpret rest as sitting on the couch, eating bon bons, this world's definition, which, that is not Father's Spirit and Truth to live in and through us, so we can rest medicine, as asked to see it and be it in it, according to Hebrews 4 to me especially 9-13
People preach we must do, when it is done for us by Son to us in his one time willing death that took way the sin of the world (John 1:29, John 19:30) in his Daddy's, Father's PaPa's sight for us to rest in and then love all wherever we are at at any time in season and out of season
People seeing this love of God spread out about in our new hearts given to us by God Father in risen Son to stand in and not have to work for it as you said we do in your posting reaction to me
Thank you, trusting Father to reveal this truth to you too
 
Nov 12, 2021
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#18
But the question arises : Does grace replace the law, or do they coexist?
The covenant of Mosaic Law is made of no effect when the New Covenant of Grace came into effect -----so they cannot coexist together -----

The Mosaic Laws required no Saving Faith to keep them ----You kept the Laws by your works of trying to keep the laws and please God ----and it was not just the 10 Commandments that had to be kept ---it was the 613 Laws that were to be kept ---if you kept the laws by your works then you received a Blessing ---if you didn't keep the laws you received a Curse ----so you were striving to get the Blessing and because we humans are corrupt in our nature no human could keep the Laws and therefor the Curse was always in place for the people ---

The New Covenant of Grace needs Faith that believes in the unseen realm to be put in effect ----God the Father changes your hardened heart to a softened heart that accepts the Gospel and this allows Christ's faith to be
inbirthed in you when you hear the Gospel being Preached ----there is no works required to receive this New Covenant of Grace ---

The law after your Saved ----the Holy Spirit then convicts your conscience when you sin ----so if you steal an item in a store ---the Holy Spirit will make you feel guilt and shame and you will want to repent of that sin -by confessing it to God --and stay away from committing any sin as much as possible -----

God hates mixture ---so you cannot mix the Law with Grace ----you cannot serve 2 masters ----the Law was given to show sin ---Christ shed His Blood to cover sin ------

The law kept you in Bondage -----Grace frees you from Bondage ------

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Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
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#19
You're absolutely right on this point. However, some theories actively connect the Law to works, citing James’ statements: “Show me your faith, and I will show you my deeds” and “Faith without works is dead.” Many people feel uncertain about their salvation unless they see a tangible manifestation of “good works” in their lives. How do you interpret this relationship between faith, works, and the Law? Do you think there is a distinction between the Law and works, and if so, how do you see their roles in the context of salvation?
The issue is compounded by the teaching that our goal as "Christians" is to "go to heaven when we die".

Little is taught about maturing in Christ so that we may present the Father in the earth. If the church really understood that Jesus is the way the truth and life, this is what they would teach. Instead, Christ is often presented as a "get out of Hell free" card.

This type of sermon, "be one of us so God likes you more", grew popular after Rome monetized access to heaven through church membership. It was a quintessential Roman polytheist idea - appeasing capricious gods - adopted by Roman church leaders. Even though they switched allegiances to "Christianity", their church leaders handled the people the same way they always did: through fear and manipulation.

When you sell "avoiding hell upon death" you have the greatest commodity in the earth. Consequently, the way of Christ needed dumbed down to the least common denominator: "what can YOU do for God?" When you've asked that question as your basis for religious worship the light of Christ is far from you.
 
Mar 11, 2025
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#20
Hello. If God were acting against His grace when He taught us His law, then He would be divided against Himself, which is absurd, but rather the Bible shows that God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law. For example, in Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this is what it means to be under grace and this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.

The Bible can speak against being required to do something for an incorrect reason without speaking against being required to do it for the correct reason, so the Bible can speak against the common misconception that our salvation requires us to have first obeyed God’s law in order to earn it as the result without speaking against our salvation requiring us to choose to be a doer of God’s law because that is part of the content of what God’s gift of salvation is. Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while our lives continued to be directed at being doers of sin, so there must be an aspect of our gift of salvation from sin that we are experiencing in the present directing our lives towards being a doer of God’s law. In other words, Jesus graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of God’s law is intrinsically part of his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it.

In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so doing those works has absolutely nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation as the result, but rather God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of those works is intrinsically part of His gift of saving us from not being a doer of those works. In Titus 2:14, Jesus did not just give himself to pay the penalty for our sin, but also to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so both are aspects of our gift of salvation.

In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to teaching us how to experience knowing God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life (John 17:3), and which is why Jesus said affirmed that the way to inherit the gift of eternal life is by obeying its greatest two commandments (Luke 10:25-28).

This is also why those who understand grace are not permitted to transgress the Law of God (Romans 6:15). In Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that we aren’t under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe the Law of God, but rather that is the role of the law of sin.
The debate surrounding grace, works, and salvation often leads to confusion, especially when we try to understand the relationship between God's sovereign grace and human responsibility. A common view, held by some, is that salvation is entirely God's work, with no contribution from humanity. This view is rooted in passages like Ephesians 2:8-9, which emphasize that salvation is a gift from God, "not of works, so that no one can boast."

On the surface, this perspective seems compelling because it highlights God’s complete and unmerited grace. However, while it is true that salvation is entirely the work of God, this view can sometimes lead to the mistaken belief that our response—our obedience to God—is unnecessary or even contradictory to grace. If salvation is already secured, some may argue, why would anyone need to do anything at all?

This is where the true power of grace comes into play. Grace, as revealed through Jesus Christ, doesn’t just save us—it transforms us. It gives us the ability, by the power of the Holy Spirit, to live according to God’s will and to obey His law. Romans 8:3-4 beautifully captures this dynamic: “For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son…in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” Grace does not negate the law; it empowers us to fulfill it, not by our own strength, but through Christ’s strength within us.

This leads to the conclusion that faith and works are not in opposition, but are two sides of the same coin. We are saved by grace through faith, and the evidence of that salvation is seen in the way we live—by doing the works that God has prepared for us. James 2:17 reminds us, "Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead." True faith will inevitably produce a transformed life—a life marked by obedience to God’s commands, not as a means of earning salvation, but as a natural response to the grace we’ve received.

The key misunderstanding in argument lies in the belief that the necessity of obedience to God’s law somehow diminishes the grace we receive. But in reality, it is through grace that we are given the capacity to obey. Philippians 2:13 says, “For it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill His good purpose.” Our ability to respond to God, to live according to His law, and to do good works, is all made possible through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit.

Another critical point to address is the role of human will in salvation. Grace is indeed a gift, freely offered, but it must be received. God’s grace does not automatically apply to everyone; it requires our active response. Revelation 3:20 captures this truth: “Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in…” God offers salvation, but He does not force it upon us. We must choose to accept His grace, and in that choice, we are then enabled to live out His will.

In essence, there is no conflict between law and grace, just as there is no contradiction between works and faith. Grace is not a license to sin, but the empowerment to live righteously. Salvation is not by works, but it results in a life of works, as the believer is transformed and made capable of fulfilling God’s commands. It’s not that we are passive recipients of salvation who do nothing in response; rather, salvation by grace leads to an active life of faith and obedience.

So, the message is clear: Grace and works are not opposites. They are intricately linked. Grace saves us, faith receives it, and works are the fruit of the salvation we’ve received. The law is not abolished; it is fulfilled in us by the power of the Holy Spirit. True faith, empowered by grace, will always lead to a life that reflects God’s character.

Ultimately, God's grace is not something that removes human responsibility but rather enables it. Salvation is a divine gift, and while we cannot earn it, we are called to receive it with a heart that is transformed by His love. As we receive grace, we are empowered to live according to God’s will, and it is through this obedience that the glory of God’s salvation is made evident in our lives.