GRACE VS LAW OR GRACE WITH LAW ?

[Dino246]

While I agree that the only way to attain the promises is by faith, the content of what is promised is in regard to obeying God's law. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of Go is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God's law is how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message, which is in accordance with Jesus being sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26), which is the Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8), and which he spread to those in Haran in accordance with the promise (Genesis 12:1-5).

In Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he would teach his children and those of his household to walk in God's way by being doers of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. In Genesis 26:4-5, God will multiply Abraham's children as the stars in the heavens, to his children He will give all of these lands, and through his children all of the nations of the earth will be blessed because he heard God's voice and guarded His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. In Deuteronomy 30:16, if the children of Abraham will love God with all of their hearts by walking in His way in obedience to His commandments, statutes, and laws, then they will live and multiply and God will bless then in the land that they go to possess. So the promise was made to Abraham and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to His law, he taught his children and those of his household to do that in accordance with spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom, and because they did that.

In John 8:56, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as him, so the way that the children of Abraham are multiplied and are a blessing to the nations in accordance with inheriting the promise through faith is by turning the nations from their wickedness and teaching them to do the same works as Abraham by walking in God's way in obedience to His law.


In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus spent his ministry teaching by word and by example and in what he accomplished through the cross is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law.

In 1 John 3:4-10, those who are not doers of righteous works in obedience to God's law are not born again, and in Romans 8:4-14, Paul contrasted those who are born of the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to God's law.

The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of God's character, which he expressed through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God's law, so it is contradictory to want to become more like Christ while not wanting to follow his example of expressing God's character traits in obedience to God's law. I agree that God's law has nothing to do with us obtaining God's character traits, but rather the claim that I supported is that it is God's instructions for how to be a doer of His character traits.


I've taken the position that followers of God should follow what He has commanded in accordance the example that Christ set for us to follow, you have taken the position that we should rebel against obeying what God has commanded, and you think that I am the one duped by Satan?

You talk… and reason… in circles. Your “salvation” is meaningless.

 

[studentoftheword]

While I agree that the only way to attain the promises is by faith, the content of what is promised is in regard to obeying God's law. In Matthew 4:15-23,

You can't obey God's 613 laws ---you are a flawed human being and James says it very clearly ----IF YOU BREAK 1---- ONLY ONE LAW YOU BROKE THEM ALL ------

The law brought sin and Death ---the CURSE ------Jesus came to FULFIL the LAWS TO BRING BACK LIFE AND THE BLESSINGS ------


______THE LAW IS NOT FOR THE RIGHTEOUS _____KNOW YOUR SCRIPTURES ----

1 Timothy 1:8-11 New Living Translation (NLT)

For the law was not intended for people who do what is right. It is for people who are lawless and rebellious, who are ungodly and sinful, who consider nothing sacred and defile what is holy, who kill their father or mother or commit other murders.

you have taken the position that we should rebel against obeying what God has commanded, and you think that I am the one duped by Satan?

NO____AGAIN YOUR WRONG -------THERE IS A NEW COMMAND NOW __straight from Jesus __WE ARE TO FOLLOW IT _____not the laws


John 13:34-35 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition====

34 I give you a new commandment: that you should love one another. Just as I have loved you, so you too should love one another.

35 By this shall all [men] know that you are My disciples, if you love one another [if you keep on showing love among yourselves].


AGAPE IS THE ONLY LAW NOW ______and to have Agape you need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit because this LOVE is a FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT ------

Which from your posts here you are spreading doubt that you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as you PREACH ANOTHER GOSPEL -----

and God sends out warnings about people who Preach another Gospel ------let them be accursed

Galatians 1:8 ----read carefully -----there is no other interpretation for this either -----it plainly says what it says -------

AMPC
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to and different from that which we preached to you, let him be accursed (anathema, devoted to destruction, doomed to eternal punishment)!

 

[homwardbound]

In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked, so verses that refer to those who are in Christ are only referring to those who are following his example of walking in obedience to God's law.


In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are works of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to teach us how to know God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life (John 17:3). So that does not leave room to interpret Philippians 3 as Paul saying that God's law is rubbish, as giving up being under it, and as saying that we just need to focus knowing Christ instead, but rather the problem was that he had been obeying God's law without being focused on knowing Christ, so he had been missing the whole goal of the law and that is what he counted as rubbish.


In Romans 9:30-10:4, they had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowing Him, so they failed to attain righteousness because they misunderstood the goal of the law by pursuing it as through righteousness were earned as the result of their works in order to establish their own instead of pursing it as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for knowing Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-10, this faith references Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey, that obedience to it brings life and a blessing, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God raised him from the dead for salvation. So nothing in this passage has anything to do with ending God's law, but just the opposite, and obedience to it was presented as possibility and as a choice, not as the need for perfection.


The only reason why someone would need to have perfect obedience is if they are going to give themselves to pay for the sins of the world, the rest of us can thankfully have our sins for given.
It is incorrect to interpret Galatians as speaking against obeying what God has commanded or as saying that we need to have perfect obedience.

Okay thank you for your opinions, you do as you do, thank you as you are
Hope I tis well in your soul

 

[Inquisitor]

In Romans 7:21-8:2, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God and that he served it with his mind, but contrasted it with the law of sin that was waging war against the law of his mind, that held him captive, and which he served with his flesh. Furthermore, he said that the Law of the Spirit of Life has set us free from the law of sin and death, so he equated the Law of God with the Law of the Spirit of Life. I've been arguing in favor of obeying the Law of God and against the law of sin and death whereas you have been arguing in favor of obeying the law of sin and death and against the Law of God.

Interesting argument you pose.

How about we have a look at a paragraph in Romans 7:4-6.

Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

To whom is Paul addressing this paragraph ("my brethren") the Jews, Gentiles, or both Jews and Gentiles?

Take your time Soyeong.

 

[Dino246]

A gift

I have a couple of questions for you, and I would appreciate it if you could give straightforward simple answers of no more than two lines each:

From what are we saved?

To what are we saved?

 

[Soyeong]

Interesting argument you pose.

How about we have a look at a paragraph in Romans 7:4-6.

Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

The Law of God leads us to do what is godly, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) while the law of sin leads us in the opposite direction by staring up sinful passion in order to bear fruit unto death (Romans 7:5), so Paul is contrasting the two laws throughout this passage. In Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe the Law of God, but rather that is the role of the law of sin. In Roman 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and in 1 John 3:4, sin is the transgression of the Law of God, so we are still under it. In Romans 6:16, we are slaves to the one that we obey, either of the law of sin, which leads to death, or obedience to the Law of God, which leads to righteousness. In Romans 6:16-18, we have been set free from the law of sin in order to become slaves of righteousness. In Romans 6:19-23. we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so being a doer of the Law of God is His gift of eternal life.

So Romans 7:1-6 should not be interpreted as saying that we need to die to God's gift of eternal life and go back to being slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin. In Romans 7:1-4, at no point was the woman set free from the Law of God, so there is nothing that leads to the conclusion that in the same way we have been set free from it. In Romans 7, Paul said that the Law of God is good, that he wanted to do good, that he delighted in obeying it, and that he served it with his mind, but contrasted it with the law of sin that was working within his members to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do, which was waging war against the law of his mind, which held him captive, and which he served with his flesh.

It would be absurd to interpret Romans 7:4 as saying that we need to die to God's word in order to be married to God's word made flesh, but rather we need to die to the law of sin that was hindering us from obeying God's word. Likewise, it would be absurd to think that we need to die to God's instructions for how to bear fruit for Him in order to be free to bear fruit for Him instead of dying to the law of sin that was hindering us from bear. It would also be absurd to interpret Romans 7:5 as referring to the Law of God as if Paul delighted in stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death or to interpret Romans 7:6 as if Paul delighted in being held captive to sin, but rather it is the law of sin that he described as holding him captive (Romans 7:22-23).

To whom is Paul addressing this paragraph ("my brethren") the Jews, Gentiles, or both Jews and Gentiles?

Take your time Soyeong.

Both.

 

[Soyeong]

You can't obey God's 613 laws ---you are a flawed human being and James says it very clearly ----IF YOU BREAK 1---- ONLY ONE LAW YOU BROKE THEM ALL ------

n James 2:1-11, he was speaking to people who had sinned by committing favoritism, so he was not telling them that he needed to have perfect obedience because that would have already been too late and he was not discouraging them from trying to keep God's law, but rather he was encouraging them to repent and obey God's law more consistently.

The law brought sin and Death ---the CURSE ------Jesus came to FULFIL the LAWS TO BRING BACK LIFE AND THE BLESSINGS ------

In Romans 10:5-8, it refers to Deuteronomy 30:11-20 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that obedience to God's law brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! Jesus fulfilled the law by teaching us how to correctly obey it.

______THE LAW IS NOT FOR THE RIGHTEOUS _____KNOW YOUR SCRIPTURES ----

1 Timothy 1:8-11 New Living Translation (NLT)

For the law was not intended for people who do what is right. It is for people who are lawless and rebellious, who are ungodly and sinful, who consider nothing sacred and defile what is holy, who kill their father or mother or commit other murders.

Those who say that the law is only for the lawless in order to justify their freedom to be lawless thereby become someone that the law is for. For someone to have a character trait means that they are a doer of that trait, so for someone to be courageous means that they are a doer of courageous works, but you are twisting that passage as if it were saying that doing courageous works is not for the courageous. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, and in 1 John 3:4-7, everyone who is a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law is righteous even as they are righteous. Instructions for how to do something are not made for the experts, but rather they are made to teach those who don't know how to do that.

NO____AGAIN YOUR WRONG -------THERE IS A NEW COMMAND NOW __straight from Jesus __WE ARE TO FOLLOW IT _____not the laws


John 13:34-35 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition====

34 I give you a new commandment: that you should love one another. Just as I have loved you, so you too should love one another.

35 By this shall all [men] know that you are My disciples, if you love one another [if you keep on showing love among yourselves].


AGAPE IS THE ONLY LAW NOW ______and to have Agape you need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit because this LOVE is a FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT ------

Everything in God's law is either in regard to how to love Him or how to love our neighbor, which is why Jesus said that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them, so the position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey the commandments that hang on them. For example, if we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, theft, murder, idolatry, kidnapping, rape, favoritism, and so forth for the rest of God's laws. It would be contradictory to want to follow God's command to love instead of God's other commands for how to do that. The greatest it two commandments at a lot easier said than done, so thankfully God gave us the rest of His commandments to flesh out what it looks like to correctly obey them. Someone who was correctly living in obedience to the greatest two commandments would be indistinguishable from someone who was correctly living in obedience to the rest of God's commandments because they would both be following the same example that Jesus set for us to follow.

Which from your posts here you are spreading doubt that you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as you PREACH ANOTHER GOSPEL -----

and God sends out warnings about people who Preach another Gospel ------let them be accursed

Galatians 1:8 ----read carefully -----there is no other interpretation for this either -----it plainly says what it says -------

AMPC
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to and different from that which we preached to you, let him be accursed (anathema, devoted to destruction, doomed to eternal punishment)!

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God's law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom. Moreover, Paul also taught the Gospel of the Kingdom based on God's law (Acts 14:21-22. 20:24-25, 28:23, Romans 15:4, 18-19), so you should not try to turn Galatians 1:8 against the Gospel of the Kingdom that both Jesus and Paul taught.

 

[GWH]

The issue is compounded by the teaching that our goal as "Christians" is to "go to heaven when we die".

Little is taught about maturing in Christ so that we may present the Father in the earth. If the church really understood that Jesus is the way the truth and life, this is what they would teach. Instead, Christ is often presented as a "get out of Hell free" card.

This type of sermon, "be one of us so God likes you more", grew popular after Rome monetized access to heaven through church membership. It was a quintessential Roman polytheist idea - appeasing capricious gods - adopted by Roman church leaders. Even though they switched allegiances to "Christianity", their church leaders handled the people the same way they always did: through fear and manipulation.

When you sell "avoiding hell upon death" you have the greatest commodity in the earth. Consequently, the way of Christ needed dumbed down to the least common denominator: "what can YOU do for God?" When you've asked that question as your basis for religious worship the light of Christ is far from you.

Here is another case where both-and logic is needed: Our goal or hope is BOTH heaven AND moral maturity on earth.
IOW, seeking/desiring joy in heaven is the proper motivation for enduring suffering on earth as we strive toward moral perfection.
(Read all of PHP :^)

 

[Inquisitor]

Both.

I asked you whom Paul was addressing in Romans 7 to which you replied, both.

Now have a look at the first verse in Romans 7

Or do you not know, brethren for I am speaking to those who know the law, that the law has jurisdiction
over a person as long as he lives?

The only people that would have some knowledge of the law of Moses would be the Jews.

The Gentiles in Rome would know that a country called Israel existed within the Roman Empire.

To expect the Gentiles in Rome to know the law would be a ridiculous assumption to make.

The Gentiles in Rome would be oblivious to the law of Moses, after all, they were under Roman law.

Further the Gentiles in Rome would not have had sufficient time to learn the law of Moses.

I don't think there is any doubt that Paul is directly addressing the Jews in Rome.

 

[GWH]

I used God's word to support what I said, so my argument is not with God's word, but with your incorrect interpretation of it. If the Mosaic Covenant were made of no effect, so would be its promises, and God would be a breaker of His promises.

The Mosaic Covenant is eternal (Exodus 31:14-17, Leviticus 24:8), so the only way that it can be replaced by the New Covenant is if it is cumulative with it, which is what it means to make something obsolete (Hebrews 8:13). One thing can only make another thing obsolete insofar as it has cumulative functionality, so a computer makes a typewriter obsolete, but does not make a plow obsolete. So the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Hebrews 8:10), plus it is based on better promises and has a superior mediator (Hebrews 8:6). The fault that God found with the Mosaic Covenant was not with His law, but with the people for not continuing in their covenant (Hebrews 8:7-9), so the solution to the problem was not for God to do away with His law, but to do away with what was hindering us from obeying it. This is why the New Covenant involves God sending us Son to free us from sin so that we might be free to meet the righteous requirement of the law (Romans 8:3-4), God taking away our hearts of stone, giving us hearts of flesh, and sending His Spirit to lead us in obedience to His law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), and putting His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33). The reason that God established the New Covenant was not so that we could be free to have the same lawlessness that caused it to be needed in the first place.

The problem with viewing the Mosaic Covenant as eternal is that Moses was unaware the Prophet who would come after him (per DT 18:15) would be raised up (DT 18:15) on a tree under God's curse for being found guilty (DT 21:22-23) of breaking the "eternal" Sabbath law (EX 31:14-17, LV 24:8) even though Moses said that Jews must listen to Him (DT 18:15) when that Prophet teaches God's truth that He is Lord of the Sabbath (MK 2:27-28) and what is lawful is to do good every day (MK 3:4), which goodness is summarized by the two greatest commandments: to love God, fellow man and oneself (MT 22:37-40), which Jesus called a new commandment (JN 13:34), and which Paul calls a new and better covenant (HB 7:22&8:6-8), citing the prophet Jeremiah (in JR 31:31).

Thus we see the need for systematic Bible study that harmonizes all relevant Scripture about a topic instead of engaging in proof-texting (TOJ #4).

 

[p_rehbein]

did not read all the comments, however, it is Biblical that Grace (New Covenant) fulfilled Law (First Covenant). We are no longer under the Law of the First Covenant. We are, however, under the Law of Faith as stated by the Apostle Paul. The Law of Faith is the Law of the New Covenant for the Church today.

Romans, Chapter 3:

26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

 

[studentoftheword]

Jesus fulfilled the law by teaching us how to correctly obey it.

No --WRONG AGAIN ------your WRONGS are more than your RIGHTS

---Jesus fulfilled it to break the Curse of the laws and bring back eternal life and the Blessings ----Jesus did not fulfil the laws so we could keep them -----as we are not perfect still ----every born again person will sin ===you still can't keep the laws ===the laws are perfect and the Holy Spirit will convict you with guilt in your mind when you sin ----so the Holy Spirit doesn't help you keep the laws ----the Holy Spirit will convict your mind when you do something that goes against the laws -----

AI

In the Bible, lying is generally viewed as a sin, with the Ten Commandments stating "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor," and other passages emphasizing the importance of truthfulness and honesty.

I say -------Ever told a lie -and we all HAVE ----and if you say NO then your deceiving yourself ------so if you have lied then you just broke all the laws ----and if your Born Again you will feels very badly after telling the lie and that is the Holy Spirit convicting you of your lying ---

I say -------Ever seen something your neighbour or your friend might have that you also would like to have ---And WE ALL HAVE -----if so the you just broke this law ---so you broke all the laws ---Break one law you break the all

AI
"Thou shalt not covet your neighbor's goods" from the Ten Commandments means to refrain from desiring or envying what belongs to others

And if you say NO I HAVE NEVER wanted something my neighbour or friend has that I would like to have -----then your deceiving yourself -------cause we all have done this at some point in our Born Again state ------

And Jesus said ---EVEN IF YOU THINK IT IN YOUR MIND ____YOU HAVE DONE IT ------so you are not able to keep the laws by Jesus Fulfilling the laws -----nor are you able to keep them by and through the Holy Spirit ----as His job is to convict the mind and make you remorseful for breaking the law -------

 

[Aaron56]

Thus we see the need for systematic Bible study that harmonizes all relevant Scripture about a topic instead of engaging in proof-texting (TOJ #4).

Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John proof-texted all the time. You can do that when you’ve walked with the Living God for some time.

What we need is for believers to recognize the spirit-filled elders in their midst.

No elder is pushing systematic Bible study. That only answers what the Word says. Spirit-led elders live out the Word (they become “studies of it”) and so they know what it means. Too much knowledge puffs up. The end result is another denomination.

 

[GWH]

Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John proof-texted all the time. You can do that when you’ve walked with the Living God for some time.

What we need is for believers to recognize the spirit-filled elders in their midst.

No elder is pushing systematic Bible study. That only answers what the Word says. Spirit-led elders live out the Word (they become “studies of it”) and so they know what it means. Too much knowledge puffs up. The end result is another denomination.

It sounds like you are in a denomination following some elder instead of the teachings of God's Word
by Jesus, Paul, John and Peter (whose eldership I acknowledge in the Scripture I shared including TOJ #4) indicating the need
for systematic Bible study that harmonizes all relevant Scripture about a topic (instead of engaging in proof-texting),
which includes:

Moses was unaware the Prophet who would come after him (per DT 18:15) would be raised up (DT 18:15) on a tree under God's curse for being found guilty (DT 21:22-23) of breaking the "eternal" Sabbath law (EX 31:14-17, LV 24:8) even though Moses said that Jews must listen to Him (DT 18:15) when that Prophet teaches God's truth that He is Lord of the Sabbath (MK 2:27-28) and what is lawful is to do good every day (MK 3:4), which goodness is summarized by the two greatest commandments: to love God, fellow man and oneself (MT 22:37-40), which Jesus called a new commandment (JN 13:34), and which Paul calls a new and better covenant (HB 7:22&8:6-8), citing the prophet Jeremiah (in JR 31:31). So much for viewing the Mosaic Covenant as eternal.

 

[ConfirmByDoing]

I believe followers of Christ glorify God with the sanctification process through the works of the Holy Spirit in our lives. He changes our "want to's". Without His empowering work this would not be possible. Here, God in the Third Person is glorified and shows that sanctification is part of the gift of salvation and not earned(I Pet 1:2; II Thes 2:13). He provides what we need(discernment,

Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John proof-texted all the time. You can do that when you’ve walked with the Living God for some time.

What we need is for believers to recognize the spirit-filled elders in their midst.

No elder is pushing systematic Bible study. That only answers what the Word says. Spirit-led elders live out the Word (they become “studies of it”) and so they know what it means. Too much knowledge puffs up. The end result is another denomination.

strength) to overcome sin and grow into holiness through obedience to the Word

By this time though, salvation has already been gained through our Receiving and Confession(Luke 23:39-43) of Jesus's work on the cross(Romans 10:9-10). We're not counting on sanctification to get us in, but instead we're enjoying it because that's getting us into a deeper relationship with God through becoming more like Christ(James 1:2-6) The Father seeing the Son in us through the work of the Holy Spirit within us seems to be the goal here
https://www.gotquestions.org/meaning-of-dross.html


If our obedience to the Law had any part in our salvation then part of that glory would separately belong to the Law, and of course the Law itself isn't God. And since the Law is not God, it would be considered a form of idolatry. But also for us to understand it is God, and God alone, who has this glory to share. It is not our work that obtains this glory but the work of the Father, Son and Spirit

Genesis 15:6; Exodus 20:25 Daniel 2:19-45(v34, v35, v44 & v45)....

"The Context: In Exodus 20, God is giving the Israelites the Ten Commandments and instructions for building a sanctuary (the Tabernacle)."

"The Meaning of Exodus 20:25: God instructs the people to build an altar of stones, but specifically prohibits using tools to shape the stones. If they use tools, the altar becomes defiled."

"The Connection to Salvation: The command not to use tools to shape the stones is a powerful symbol of God's grace and our inability to earn our salvation through our own efforts."

"God's Provision: The altar, in this context, represents God's provision and grace. God is providing the materials and the instructions for the people to build the altar, not the other way around."

"Our Dependence: By prohibiting the use of tools, God emphasizes that the people cannot contribute to the altar's construction, nor can they contribute to their own salvation. Salvation is a gift from God, not something we can earn."

"Tool as a Symbol: The tool represents our works, our efforts, our ability to shape or create something. God is saying that our works are insufficient to earn His favor or to earn salvation."

Daniel 2:19-45(v34, v35, v44 & v45)....

"The Dream and its Interpretation:
In Daniel 2, King Nebuchadnezzar has a dream of a giant statue made of different metals, representing successive world empires, which is then struck by a stone that grows to fill the earth. Daniel interprets this dream, saying that the stone represents a kingdom established by God that will destroy all other kingdoms and endure forever."

"The Stone as a Symbol of Christ's Kingdom:
Many Christians interpret the "stone cut out without hands" as a symbolic representation of Jesus Christ and his kingdom."

"The Kingdom's Establishment:
The stone's action of crushing the statue and becoming a great mountain signifies the establishment of God's kingdom, which will ultimately replace all earthly kingdoms."

"The Role of the Holy Spirit:
In Christian theology, the Holy Spirit plays a crucial role in the establishment and growth of God's kingdom, empowering believers to live according to God's will and spread the message of the gospel."

"Jesus' Resurrection and Kingdom:
The resurrection of Jesus is seen as the pivotal event that inaugurates the kingdom of God, and the Holy Spirit is sent to empower believers to live out the kingdom's values and spread its message."

Daniel 2:44-45:
"In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever." (Daniel 2:44, NIV)
"As you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands and became a great mountain and filled the whole earth, so the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this." (Daniel 2:45, NIV)

 

[ConfirmByDoing]

My apologies Aaron56, I quoted you by mistake

 

[Aaron56]

It sounds like you are in a denomination following some elder instead of the teachings of God's Word
by Jesus, Paul, John and Peter (whose eldership I acknowledge in the Scripture I shared including TOJ #4) indicating the need
for systematic Bible study that harmonizes all relevant Scripture about a topic (instead of engaging in proof-texting),
which includes:

Moses was unaware the Prophet who would come after him (per DT 18:15) would be raised up (DT 18:15) on a tree under God's curse for being found guilty (DT 21:22-23) of breaking the "eternal" Sabbath law (EX 31:14-17, LV 24:8) even though Moses said that Jews must listen to Him (DT 18:15) when that Prophet teaches God's truth that He is Lord of the Sabbath (MK 2:27-28) and what is lawful is to do good every day (MK 3:4), which goodness is summarized by the two greatest commandments: to love God, fellow man and oneself (MT 22:37-40), which Jesus called a new commandment (JN 13:34), and which Paul calls a new and better covenant (HB 7:22&8:6-8), citing the prophet Jeremiah (in JR 31:31). So much for viewing the Mosaic Covenant as eternal.

You should not make assumptions. You are wrong on all accounts.

"Systematic Bible study" is how we get false doctrines like 7th Day Adventists. The practice begins with "We can figure this out ourselves using logic and reason and our knowledge of language". It's bereft of the need for the Spirit to reveal and understand.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

You're absolutely right on this point. However, some theories actively connect the Law to works, citing James’ statements: “Show me your faith, and I will show you my deeds” and “Faith without works is dead.” Many people feel uncertain about their salvation unless they see a tangible manifestation of “good works” in their lives. How do you interpret this relationship between faith, works, and the Law? Do you think there is a distinction between the Law and works, and if so, how do you see their roles in the context of salvation?

Here is faith plus works for salvation:

For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest... For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. (Heb 4:2-3, 10)​

When a person puts his trust in Christ for the forgiveness of his sins, he also stops working for his salvation. Here, the "work" that necessarily accompanies "faith" is a conscious decision to "cease from works".

While this "work" is not objectively visible to human onlookers, it is nevertheless imperative that we "be diligent to enter that rest" (Heb 4:11) because the thoughts and intents of our hearts are clearly seen by "Him to whom we must give account" (Heb 4:13).

 

[GWH]

You should not make assumptions. You are wrong on all accounts.

"Systematic Bible study" is how we get false doctrines like 7th Day Adventists. The practice begins with "We can figure this out ourselves using logic and reason and our knowledge of language". It's bereft of the need for the Spirit to reveal and understand.

Always glad to learn that I was wrong to think you were projecting your assumptions onto me. :^)

Systematic study does not guarantee infallible interpretation, but I doubt it was used by 7th Day Adventists.

Show me the Spirit's revelation without Scripture and I will show you a heresy in the making.

 

[Aaron56]

Show me the Spirit's revelation without Scripture...

Dude. You mean for nearly all of the New Testament?

How are we to know whether to "shout from the roof tops" or to "go into our rooms and shut the door" if not for the Spirit? It's all Biblical but the Word is never preached in season without those who are sent to preach it.

The alternative is to get general morality instruction through the stories of historical people.