Great GRACE {MYSTERY} Departure @ the 2nd coming {prophecy}?

[GRACE_ambassador]

Precious friend(s), Definite Distinctions are not being made, resulting in mass Confusion!
Hope this is helpful and encouraging = Please Be Very Richly Blessed in JESUS CHRIST!:
--------------------------------------------------------

LORD JESUS, we beseech Thee Now For Thy Divine Understanding In This Thy Most
Important Doctrine For our Comfort And Consolation. Amen. (1_Thessalonians_4:18 KJB!)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Time Of JACOB’s {Israel's} Trouble (TOJT), Ending With The Second Coming, is found in:

God's Prophetic Program, Under LAW, gospel of the kingdom (“ages” past/future)
(Genesis-John; Hebrews-Revelation)

God’s “Earthly Kingdom” Purpose From “the foundation of the world” (Matthew_25:34)

God's Purpose Prophesied “since the world began” (Luke_1:68-70; Acts_3:21!)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy_2:15 KJB!) From Things That DIFFER:

Great GRACE Departure!

Pre-TOJT Resurrection/Departure of The Body Of CHRIST,
Ending God’s Age Of GRACE, Is Found In:

God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!
{ Current = “But NOW!” } (Romans through Philemon!)

God’s “Heavenly Hidden” Purpose Before “the foundation of the world”
(Ephesians_1:4; 2_Timothy_1:9!)

God's Heavenly Purpose Kept Secret “since the world began”
(Romans_16:25; Ephesians_1:4-11, 3:5-9!)
-------------------
The Second Coming, According to Prophecy:

(1) Immediately After tribulation/4 signs, CHRIST, In His
Prophesied Second Advent, As KING Of kings, And LORD Of lords,
Is Coming From Heaven! (Matthew_24:29; Revelation_19:16, 11 KJB!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming On a white horse, With Crowns On
His Head, And A Sword In His Mouth! (Revelation_19:12-15)

(3) CHRIST Is Coming With, (which Were In Heaven!),
His armies on white horses! (Revelation_19:12-15)

(4) CHRIST Is Coming To earth “With All Of His holy angels,”
In Order To Judge/Make war/Smite And Rule the nations…
(Matthew_25:31; Revelation_19:11, 15)

(5a) Angels “gather the tares First, And they are taken Out of the kingdom”
to be cast into the furnace of fire! (Matthew_24:30, 13:30, 40-43!)

(5b) Angels “gather the elect”... (Matthew_24:31; Mark_13:27!)

(6)...for the “judgment of the Earthly Nations” By The Son of man, The King!
(Matthew_25:31-46!)

(7) Those Judged as righteous then enter the kingdom! And the UNrighteous
then Depart into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels!
(Matthew_25:34-46!)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy_2:15 KJB!) From Things That DIFFER!:

The Great GRACE Departure, According to The Heavenly Mystery!:

(1) Immediately After GRACE Has ENDED/ZERO signs!:
CHRIST, As Head Of His Body, The Church, Will Descend From
Heaven! (Ephesians_1:19-23; Colossians_1:18; 1_Thessalonians_4:16-17!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming With A Shout, With the voice of an archangel,
And With The Trump of God! (1_Thessalonians_4:16!)

3) God (JESUS CHRIST) Will Bring With Him {those who Were With
Him In Heaven}, part Of His Own, those who are “asleep In JESUS!”
(2_Corinthians_5:8; Philippians_1:21-23; 1_Thessalonians_4:13 KJB!)

(4) CHRIST Descends With One archangel, Will resurrect those
asleep {in 3)} First, and Then, we “which are alive and remain,” {which
Is A Mystery!}, will be changed/all “incorruptible, And Caught Up”
together to meet The LORD in the air, in the “twinkling of an eye!”
(1_Thessalonians_4:16-17; 1_Corinthians_15:52-53!)

(5) CHRIST “Gathers His Body” To Himself, to Take them To Heaven...
(2_Thessalonians_2:1-3; 1_Corinthians_15:49; 2_Corinthians_12:2, 5:1, 2;
Ephesians_1:3, 20, 2:6; Philippians_3:20; 2_Timothy_4:18!)

6)...For The Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, For HIS Heavenly Body,
By The Head Himself!... (Romans_2:6, 16, 14:10-12;
1_Corinthians_3:8-15, 4:5, 6:20; 2_Corinthians_5:10;
Ephesians_6:8; Colossians_3:24-25!)

(7a) ...After Judgment, the GRACE assembly Is Then Presented as
A Glorious Church, To CHRIST Himself!... (Ephesians_5:27!)

(7b) ...And, Then CHRIST Will Present His Body, holy and
unblameable and unreproveable, In His Sight, To His Father,
In Heaven, Where we Live Forever And Ever! Amen!
(1_Thessalonians_3:13; Colossians_1:5, 22;
1_Corinthians_6:3; 2_Corinthians_5:1-2 KJB!)

---------------------------------------------------------------

LORD JESUS, thank You so much for Your Precious BLOOD,
Gift Of Eternal Salvation, And for Your Blessed Hope of
Glorification When You Come To Finally Gather us Home! Amen.

---------------------------------------------------------

Please Be Very Richly Blessed, Encouraged, And Comforted! And:

Precious friend(s), see you In God's Great GloryLand!! ♫ 😇 ↑

 

[Absolutely]

Precious friend(s), Definite Distinctions are not being made, resulting in mass Confusion!
Hope this is helpful and encouraging = Please Be Very Richly Blessed in JESUS CHRIST!:
--------------------------------------------------------

LORD JESUS, we beseech Thee Now For Thy Divine Understanding In This Thy Most
Important Doctrine For our Comfort And Consolation. Amen. (1_Thessalonians_4:18 KJB!)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Time Of JACOB’s {Israel's} Trouble (TOJT), Ending With The Second Coming, is found in:

God's Prophetic Program, Under LAW, gospel of the kingdom (“ages” past/future)
(Genesis-John; Hebrews-Revelation)

God’s “Earthly Kingdom” Purpose From “the foundation of the world” (Matthew_25:34)

God's Purpose Prophesied “since the world began” (Luke_1:68-70; Acts_3:21!)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy_2:15 KJB!) From Things That DIFFER:

Great GRACE Departure!

Pre-TOJT Resurrection/Departure of The Body Of CHRIST,
Ending God’s Age Of GRACE, Is Found In:

God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!
{ Current = “But NOW!” } (Romans through Philemon!)

God’s “Heavenly Hidden” Purpose Before “the foundation of the world”
(Ephesians_1:4; 2_Timothy_1:9!)

God's Heavenly Purpose Kept Secret “since the world began”
(Romans_16:25; Ephesians_1:4-11, 3:5-9!)
-------------------
The Second Coming, According to Prophecy:

(1) Immediately After tribulation/4 signs, CHRIST, In His
Prophesied Second Advent, As KING Of kings, And LORD Of lords,
Is Coming From Heaven! (Matthew_24:29; Revelation_19:16, 11 KJB!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming On a white horse, With Crowns On
His Head, And A Sword In His Mouth! (Revelation_19:12-15)

(3) CHRIST Is Coming With, (which Were In Heaven!),
His armies on white horses! (Revelation_19:12-15)

(4) CHRIST Is Coming To earth “With All Of His holy angels,”
In Order To Judge/Make war/Smite And Rule the nations…
(Matthew_25:31; Revelation_19:11, 15)

(5a) Angels “gather the tares First, And they are taken Out of the kingdom”
to be cast into the furnace of fire! (Matthew_24:30, 13:30, 40-43!)

(5b) Angels “gather the elect”... (Matthew_24:31; Mark_13:27!)

(6)...for the “judgment of the Earthly Nations” By The Son of man, The King!
(Matthew_25:31-46!)

(7) Those Judged as righteous then enter the kingdom! And the UNrighteous
then Depart into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels!
(Matthew_25:34-46!)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy_2:15 KJB!) From Things That DIFFER!:

The Great GRACE Departure, According to The Heavenly Mystery!:

(1) Immediately After GRACE Has ENDED/ZERO signs!:
CHRIST, As Head Of His Body, The Church, Will Descend From
Heaven! (Ephesians_1:19-23; Colossians_1:18; 1_Thessalonians_4:16-17!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming With A Shout, With the voice of an archangel,
And With The Trump of God! (1_Thessalonians_4:16!)

3) God (JESUS CHRIST) Will Bring With Him {those who Were With
Him In Heaven}, part Of His Own, those who are “asleep In JESUS!”
(2_Corinthians_5:8; Philippians_1:21-23; 1_Thessalonians_4:13 KJB!)

(4) CHRIST Descends With One archangel, Will resurrect those
asleep {in 3)} First, and Then, we “which are alive and remain,” {which
Is A Mystery!}, will be changed/all “incorruptible, And Caught Up”
together to meet The LORD in the air, in the “twinkling of an eye!”
(1_Thessalonians_4:16-17; 1_Corinthians_15:52-53!)

(5) CHRIST “Gathers His Body” To Himself, to Take them To Heaven...
(2_Thessalonians_2:1-3; 1_Corinthians_15:49; 2_Corinthians_12:2, 5:1, 2;
Ephesians_1:3, 20, 2:6; Philippians_3:20; 2_Timothy_4:18!)

6)...For The Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, For HIS Heavenly Body,
By The Head Himself!... (Romans_2:6, 16, 14:10-12;
1_Corinthians_3:8-15, 4:5, 6:20; 2_Corinthians_5:10;
Ephesians_6:8; Colossians_3:24-25!)

(7a) ...After Judgment, the GRACE assembly Is Then Presented as
A Glorious Church, To CHRIST Himself!... (Ephesians_5:27!)

(7b) ...And, Then CHRIST Will Present His Body, holy and
unblameable and unreproveable, In His Sight, To His Father,
In Heaven, Where we Live Forever And Ever! Amen!
(1_Thessalonians_3:13; Colossians_1:5, 22;
1_Corinthians_6:3; 2_Corinthians_5:1-2 KJB!)

---------------------------------------------------------------

LORD JESUS, thank You so much for Your Precious BLOOD,
Gift Of Eternal Salvation, And for Your Blessed Hope of
Glorification When You Come To Finally Gather us Home! Amen.

---------------------------------------------------------

Please Be Very Richly Blessed, Encouraged, And Comforted! And:

Precious friend(s), see you In God's Great GloryLand!! ♫ 😇 ↑

Nope

You can not get any honest view by leaving out the rapture verses

 

[Absolutely]

Nothing in your view includes the bride/ groom components

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

leaving out the rapture verses

huh? (4): ...1_Thessalonians_4:16-17; 1_Corinthians_15:52-53 KJB!

If these are Not rapture verses, then please categorize Them for my learning.
Thanks So Much!

ok, you're Absolutely right, sorry, I shouldn't have left out:

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by
our gathering together unto Him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be
troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that
The [Judgment] Day Of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any
means: for That Day shall not come, except there come a falling away
[Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure] First, and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;" (2_Thessalonians_2:1-3 KJB!),

Again, you're Absolutely right, or we Could be "Deceived By any means!" And:

"Looking for That Blessed Hope, and The Glorious [Pre-Trib] Appearing
of The Great God and our Saviour JESUS CHRIST;" (Titus 2:13 KJB!)

"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which The Lord,
The Righteous Judge, shall give me At That [Judgment] Day [Of CHRIST!]: and
not to me only, but unto all them also that love HIS Appearing."
(2_Timothy_4:8 KJB!)

eh? My bad! Shame on me for leaving ALL These out!
And, help me learn IF there are Any Others I may have missed!
Getting closer to a More Honest view?

Precious friend, see you In God's Great GloryLand!! ♫ 😇 ↑

 

[Runningman]

huh? (4): ...1_Thessalonians_4:16-17; 1_Corinthians_15:52-53 KJB!

If these are Not rapture verses, then please categorize Them for my learning.
Thanks So Much!

ok, you're Absolutely right, sorry, I shouldn't have left out:

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by
our gathering together unto Him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be
troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that
The [Judgment] Day Of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any
means: for That Day shall not come, except there come a falling away
[Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure] First, and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;" (2_Thessalonians_2:1-3 KJB!),

Again, you're Absolutely right, or we Could be "Deceived By any means!" And:

"Looking for That Blessed Hope, and The Glorious [Pre-Trib] Appearing
of The Great God and our Saviour JESUS CHRIST;" (Titus 2:13 KJB!)

"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which The Lord,
The Righteous Judge, shall give me At That [Judgment] Day [Of CHRIST!]: and
not to me only, but unto all them also that love HIS Appearing."
(2_Timothy_4:8 KJB!)

eh? My bad! Shame on me for leaving ALL These out!
And, help me learn IF there are Any Others I may have missed!
Getting closer to a More Honest view?

Precious friend, see you In God's Great GloryLand!! ♫ 😇 ↑

The part where you inserted "pre-trib" is your addition to the scripture and it is no where to be found or implied in the real text.

The word "departure" you're fiddling with to project the pre-trib rapture doctrine into these scriptures is taken from the Greek word apostasia. In order to understand who or what is departing the context and most literal translation should be used.

This is not talking about a departure of the church in a pre-trib rapture, rather it is a departure of the church from the truth. They will rebel, desert, defect, revolt, or apostate from the truth first.

646. apostasia
Strong's Concordance
apostasia: defection, revolt
Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Definition: defection, revolt
Usage: defection, apostasy, revolt.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

Now that that word has been rightly divided, the literal translation of these verses is that the day of Christ will not come unless there is an apostasy of the Church, first, and the anti-Christ is revealed. Full stop.

Jesus does not return until the anti-Christ is sitting in a future third temple proclaiming that he is God:

2 These. 2:4
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The day of Christ mentioned above is the day Jesus returns and those who belong to Him are gathered to Him.

When Jesus returns He destroys the anti-Christ:

2 Thess. 2:8
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

Since Jesus returns after the apostasy of the church and the anti-Christ being worshipped in a future third temple, that means the great tribulation has already been ongoing prior to the return of Christ with the true church still present.

Conclusively, the rapture is not pre-trib, but rather post-trib.

Now that you know the correct definition of the Greek word apostasia used in this verse, how does it alter your view of the pre-trib rapture doctrine?

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Now that you know the correct definition of the Greek word apostasia used in this verse, how does it alter your view of the pre-trib rapture doctrine?

Thanks for your correct "definition" of a foreign word; however does not
alter my view, Considering the other dozens of Scriptures That Do Support
PRE-TOJT Great GRACE Departure! Odds of 50 to 1 or 100 to 1? Sorry, haven't
taken Precious time to ADD THEM All up yet

 

[Runningman]

Thanks for your correct "definition" of a foreign word; however does not
alter my view, Considering the other dozens of Scriptures That Do Support
PRE-TOJT Great GRACE Departure! Odds of 50 to 1 or 100 to 1? Sorry, haven't
taken Precious time to ADD THEM All up yet

Which verses support a pre-tojt "great grace departure?'

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Which verses support a pre-tojt "great grace departure?'

Precious friend, here ya go...

While those who prefer God's Prophecy/Law Program, And
"live BY SIGHT," Are looking, watching, and WAITING for
the Wicked one, the son of Perdition...

Rightly Divided (2_Timothy_2 : 15 KJB!) From "Things That Differ!":
...The Next Dozen Scriptures Supporting Great GRACE Departure!:

...we, who "live BY FAITH, And NOT by sight..."
(2_Corinthians_5 : 7 KJB!), According To The
"Revelation Of The MYSTERY," God's GRACE Program, Are:

Looking, Watching, Waiting For our Blessed Hope, The HOLY ONE:

”...The Coming Of our LORD JESUS CHRIST, and our
gathering together Unto HIM…“ ( 2_Thessalonians 2 : 1! )

"For I reckon that The Sufferings of this present time are not
worthy to be compared with The Glory which shall be revealed
in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for
the manifestation of the sons of God...

...ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of The Spirit, even
we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for The Adoption,
to wit, The Redemption Of our body!" ( Romans_8 : 18, 19, 23! )

"But if we hope for That we see not, then do
we with patience wait for It." ( Romans_8 : 25! )

For The Redemption Of CHRIST?

"So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for The
Coming of our LORD JESUS CHRIST!" ( 1_Corinthians 1 : 7! )

"...And take the helmet of salvation, and The SWORD of The Spirit,
Which Is The WORD of God: praying always with all prayer and
supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all
perseverance and supplication for all saints…" ( Ephesians_6 : 12-18! )

What?:
Watching/persevering The “future age” of Antichrist/Gr8-Trib,
or The Present Time “Age of GRACE for infirmities” watching for:

CHRIST And Redemption?

"For our conversation [citizenship] is in heaven; from whence also we
look for The Saviour, The LORD JESUS CHRIST!" ( Philippians_3 : 20! )

Looking for/persevering the Persecutor, or: FOR The SAVIOUR?

To slaves of The LORD JESUS CHRIST:

"...ye also have A Master in Heaven. Continue in prayer, and
watch in the same with thanksgiving; withal praying also for
us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak
The Mystery Of CHRIST…" ( Colossians_4 :1-3! )

“And to wait for His SON from Heaven, Whom He Raised from the
dead, even JESUS, Which Delivered us from the wrath to come!"
( 1_Thessalonians 1 : 10! ) wrath of antichrist to come?

“Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are
not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as
do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep, sleep
in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate
of faith and love; and for a helmet, The Hope of Salvation. For God
Hath not Appointed us to wrath, but to obtain Salvation By our
LORD JESUS CHRIST, Who Died for us, that, whether we wake or
sleep, we Should Live Together With HIM! Wherefore comfort
yourselves together and edify one another, even as also ye do.”
( 1_Thessalonians 5 : 5-11! )

Please advise how we go into Gr8-Trib, when God Has NOT
appointed us to, And Delivered us from, "the wrath to come"?

And, Finally:

“LOOKING for That Blessed Hope, and The Glorious Appearing
of THE Great God and our Saviour JESUS CHRIST!” ( Titus_2 : 13! )

Conclusion:
Are we "looking, watching, and Patiently waiting for:

THE Wicked one ? OR The HOLY One, The LORD JESUS CHRIST!?

About Colossians_3 : 2: Is your “affection” = Things of “earth” =
antichrist? Or “Things Of Heaven” = The LORD JESUS CHRIST?
+
The First 4+ Dozen were here: Pre-TOJT Great GRACE Departure!
{ (4+1) x 12 } = 60+ to 1 odds, for my UNaltered view, eh?

"Prove ALL things; hold fast to that Which Is Good!"
( 1_Thessalonians_5 : 21 KJB! )

Precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Blessed!

 

[Runningman]

Precious friend, here ya go...

While those who prefer God's Prophecy/Law Program, And
"live BY SIGHT," Are looking, watching, and WAITING for
the Wicked one, the son of Perdition...

Rightly Divided (2_Timothy_2 : 15 KJB!) From "Things That Differ!":
...The Next Dozen Scriptures Supporting Great GRACE Departure!:

...we, who "live BY FAITH, And NOT by sight..."
(2_Corinthians_5 : 7 KJB!), According To The
"Revelation Of The MYSTERY," God's GRACE Program, Are:

Looking, Watching, Waiting For our Blessed Hope, The HOLY ONE:

”...The Coming Of our LORD JESUS CHRIST, and our
gathering together Unto HIM…“ ( 2_Thessalonians 2 : 1! )

"For I reckon that The Sufferings of this present time are not
worthy to be compared with The Glory which shall be revealed
in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for
the manifestation of the sons of God...

...ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of The Spirit, even
we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for The Adoption,
to wit, The Redemption Of our body!" ( Romans_8 : 18, 19, 23! )

"But if we hope for That we see not, then do
we with patience wait for It." ( Romans_8 : 25! )

For The Redemption Of CHRIST?

"So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for The
Coming of our LORD JESUS CHRIST!" ( 1_Corinthians 1 : 7! )

"...And take the helmet of salvation, and The SWORD of The Spirit,
Which Is The WORD of God: praying always with all prayer and
supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all
perseverance and supplication for all saints…" ( Ephesians_6 : 12-18! )

What?:
Watching/persevering The “future age” of Antichrist/Gr8-Trib,
or The Present Time “Age of GRACE for infirmities” watching for:

CHRIST And Redemption?

"For our conversation [citizenship] is in heaven; from whence also we
look for The Saviour, The LORD JESUS CHRIST!" ( Philippians_3 : 20! )

Looking for/persevering the Persecutor, or: FOR The SAVIOUR?

To slaves of The LORD JESUS CHRIST:

"...ye also have A Master in Heaven. Continue in prayer, and
watch in the same with thanksgiving; withal praying also for
us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak
The Mystery Of CHRIST…" ( Colossians_4 :1-3! )

“And to wait for His SON from Heaven, Whom He Raised from the
dead, even JESUS, Which Delivered us from the wrath to come!"
( 1_Thessalonians 1 : 10! ) wrath of antichrist to come?

“Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are
not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as
do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep, sleep
in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate
of faith and love; and for a helmet, The Hope of Salvation. For God
Hath not Appointed us to wrath, but to obtain Salvation By our
LORD JESUS CHRIST, Who Died for us, that, whether we wake or
sleep, we Should Live Together With HIM! Wherefore comfort
yourselves together and edify one another, even as also ye do.”
( 1_Thessalonians 5 : 5-11! )

Please advise how we go into Gr8-Trib, when God Has NOT
appointed us to, And Delivered us from, "the wrath to come"?

And, Finally:

“LOOKING for That Blessed Hope, and The Glorious Appearing
of THE Great God and our Saviour JESUS CHRIST!” ( Titus_2 : 13! )

Conclusion:
Are we "looking, watching, and Patiently waiting for:

THE Wicked one ? OR The HOLY One, The LORD JESUS CHRIST!?

About Colossians_3 : 2: Is your “affection” = Things of “earth” =
antichrist? Or “Things Of Heaven” = The LORD JESUS CHRIST?
+
The First 4+ Dozen were here: Pre-TOJT Great GRACE Departure!
{ (4+1) x 12 } = 60+ to 1 odds, for my UNaltered view, eh?

"Prove ALL things; hold fast to that Which Is Good!"
( 1_Thessalonians_5 : 21 KJB! )

Precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Blessed!

Thank you.

Notice that none of the scriptures you've posted say the return of Christ is pre-trib. So they aren't useful to prove the point you believe in.

Christians are not appointed to God's wrath. You're correct there. The bowls of wrath are not directed at Christians. No need to post it, read who the bowls of wrath are directed at.

The great tribulation is not God's wrath either. The great tribulation comes from Satan who will be persecuting anyone on Earth who does not receive the mark of the beast.

Closely notice, God is not persecutin Christians or martyring Christians in the great tribulation. That is out of the question.

Prior to the start of the great tribulation, Satan comes to earth with great wrath:

Revelation 12:12
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The great tribulation and mark of the beast are the direct result the devil's influence through the beast and false prophet.

When Jesus returns He destroys the anti-Christ and raptures the church.

2 Thessalonians 2:1
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him

2 Thessalonians 2:8-12
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Side question: I can find scriptural evidence for a singular second advent of Christ. How many times do you believe that Jesus returns?

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Thank you.

Notice that none of the scriptures you've posted say the return of Christ is pre-trib...When Jesus returns He destroys the anti-Christ and raptures the church.

Correct, no, none of Them Specifically Say "The Return Of CHRIST Is PRE-TOJT!"

Now, somebody Needs To DEFINE Exactly "what Return means: Is it:

(1) According to Prophecy Return {IMMEDIATELY After Gr8Trib, AND SIGNS} means: Returns all THE WAY to the earth for the battle of Armageddon, setting UP HIS THRONE, blowing a trumpet, having
HIS angels GATHER the elect OF ISRAEL/nations {rapture?} and the wicked survivors {rapture?}, for sheep/goats Judgment, to see who Qualifies TO ENTER the kingdom for 1000 years, on the EARTTH?
{Daniel, Matthew, Revelation = Prophecy!}?

or:

(2) According To The Mystery, Return means: HIS {IMMEDIATELY
After GRACE Has Ended AND NO "signs"}, Coming to GATHER HIS
{Already TRANSLATED Into the kingdom} Body Unto HIMSELF,
"meeting them IN THE AIR," Taking them To Glory, to be Judged
FOR: shame {lack of REWARDS}, or rewards, ruling, and reigning
In The HEAVENS! {Does NOT Return ALL THE WAY to the earth!!}
(Romans - Philemon = MYSTERY!!!)?

So they aren't useful to prove the point

Please make up our minds Prophecy = MYSTERY? OR NOT?

IF God's TWO Different Programs are NOT EQUAL, THEN, The
"MYSTERY" Scriptures "FOR PRE-TOJT" Are QUITE USEFUL, eh?

Be Blessed!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ I agree that the "RETURN" verses (all) speak of His "RETURN *to the earth*" at the Armageddon time-slot (Rev19); and that this distinguishes the two. (i.e. "our Rapture / THE Departure" of us, is "IN THE AIR"... "to the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR"... "our epi*synagoges UNTO HIM" there [G4862 - *syn - UNIONed-with]--completely *distinct*!)

 

[bobo32]

I don't know many verses to support my belief in a pre trib rapture. however it seems to me that the tribulations can't begin until the restrainer is removed, the restrainer is the Holy Spirit and we are filled with the Holy Spirit so, if the HS is removed then so are we because we can't be where the HS isn't. So when He goes we go, right? and that means pre trib.

 

[Runningman]

I don't know many verses to support my belief in a pre trib rapture. however it seems to me that the tribulations can't begin until the restrainer is removed, the restrainer is the Holy Spirit and we are filled with the Holy Spirit so, if the HS is removed then so are we because we can't be where the HS isn't. So when He goes we go, right? and that means pre trib.

If the Holy Spirit is removed before the great tribulation then where do the two witnesses get their power from and how do the saints in the great tribulation become born again?

Two witnesses performing miracles during the great tribulation:
Revelation 11:3-6
3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Saints called to have patience during the mark of the beast period of the GT:
Revelation 14:9-12
9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

Correct, no, none of Them Specifically Say "The Return Of CHRIST Is PRE-TOJT!"

Now, somebody Needs To DEFINE Exactly "what Return means: Is it:

(1) According to Prophecy Return {IMMEDIATELY After Gr8Trib, AND SIGNS} means: Returns all THE WAY to the earth for the battle of Armageddon, setting UP HIS THRONE, blowing a trumpet, having
HIS angels GATHER the elect OF ISRAEL/nations {rapture?} and the wicked survivors {rapture?}, for sheep/goats Judgment, to see who Qualifies TO ENTER the kingdom for 1000 years, on the EARTTH?
{Daniel, Matthew, Revelation = Prophecy!}?

or:

(2) According To The Mystery, Return means: HIS {IMMEDIATELY
After GRACE Has Ended AND NO "signs"}, Coming to GATHER HIS
{Already TRANSLATED Into the kingdom} Body Unto HIMSELF,
"meeting them IN THE AIR," Taking them To Glory, to be Judged
FOR: shame {lack of REWARDS}, or rewards, ruling, and reigning
In The HEAVENS! {Does NOT Return ALL THE WAY to the earth!!}
(Romans - Philemon = MYSTERY!!!)?


Please make up our minds Prophecy = MYSTERY? OR NOT?

IF God's TWO Different Programs are NOT EQUAL, THEN, The
"MYSTERY" Scriptures "FOR PRE-TOJT" Are QUITE USEFUL, eh?

Be Blessed!

God's elect are those who belong to Christ? So that would include Christians?

Matthew 24:29-31
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[bobo32]

If the Holy Spirit is removed before the great tribulation then where do the two witnesses get their power from and how do the saints in the great tribulation become born again?


I don't know the answer to that but I imagine God the Father and/or God the Son have enough power to give the witnesses as much power as they need.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Thanks for your correct "definition" of a foreign word

Re: "G646 - apostasia"...

...consider the following...


From Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon (1889) -

apostasia [says: "LATE FORM OF apostasis" / "LATER FORM FOR apostasis" (see below)] -

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0058:entry=a)postasi/a


[so THAT entry says...]

apostasis - http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0058:entry=a)po/stasis

--"ἀπόστασις [apostasis] ἀφίσταμαι

a standing away from, and so,

1.a defection, revolt, ἀπό τινος or τινος Hdt., Thuc.; πρός τινα Thuc.

2.departure from, βίου Eur.

3.distance, interval, Plat.

Liddell and Scott. An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon. Oxford. Clarendon Press. 1889.





[note: "Strong's Concordance first published 1890."]


The FIRST SEVEN ENGLISH translations (before the kjv ever existed) rendered this word (in 2Th2:3, G646) as "a departing" or "departure"... which is the basic meaning of this word.


Example:

Geneva Bible of 1587 -

"Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,"


Not to mention, in the 400s, the Latin Vulgate used "discessio" (MEANING, "departure")



IOW, "Strong's Concordance" is not the last word on this Subject.

 

[Runningman]

If the Holy Spirit is removed before the great tribulation then where do the two witnesses get their power from and how do the saints in the great tribulation become born again?


I don't know the answer to that but I imagine God the Father and/or God the Son have enough power to give the witnesses as much power as they need.

The Holy Spirit does not seem like a likely candidate for who the restrainer is to me.

Have you read Daniel 10-12? Or Revelation 12?

After Michael the archangel finishes his war in Daniel 12 the abomination of desolation appears.

After Michael finishes his war in Revelation 12 the devil goes to earth to make war with those who keep the commandments of God and those who have the testimony of Jesus just before anti-Christ appears and sets up the abomination of desolation.

I find those parallels rather striking since the "restrainer" being take out of the way, in 2 Thessalonians 2, is critical to the revealing of the anti-Christ and the AoD.

Daniel 10-12, Revelation 12, and the restrainer possibly being Michael the archangel seem to be likely in my opinion.

 

[FlyingDove]

Geneva Bible of 1587 -

"Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,"


Not to mention, in the 400s, the Latin Vulgate used "discessio" (MEANING, "departure")

IOW, "Strong's Concordance" is not the last word on this Subject.

 

[FlyingDove]

Below find 4 more translations pre 1611 KJV that ALL say departure not falling away.

1526 Tyndale Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (B) ""the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst"" and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

1537 Matthews Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (B) ""the Lord cometh not/except ther come a departure"" that the sinfull man opened/the son of perdition

1535 Miles Coverdale Bible (1535)
2 Thes 2:3 Let noman disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORD commeth not, ""except the departynge come 1st"" and that that Man of synne be opened, euen the sonne of perdicion,

1540 The Great Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (B) ""the lord comes not except a departure first"", and the sinfull man be showed, son of perdition,

Find supporting scripture on Gods people (Body of Christ/Church) escaping wrath:

We see here the church escaping the wrath of the great tribulation soon to be poured out

1 Thes 1:10, And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even ""Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come""

Rom 5:9 being now justified by his blood ""we shall be saved from wrath"" through him

1 thes 5:9 ""God hath not appointed us to wrath"" but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

The angels couldn’t destroy Sodom and Gomorrah until Lot and his family were clear

Noah and his family were delivered from wrath before the flood came

The great tribulation to come is called the time of Jacobs/Israels trouble Jer 30:7.

Additionally:

At the physical return when Jesus STANDS on MT. Olive. The caught-up/raptured saints are with the Lord.

Zec 14:
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
(MY NOTE: When Jesus returns HIS FEET shall stand on Mt Olives (same place he ascended from Acts 1:9-11)

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
(MY NOTE: The LORD my God shall come & all the saints are with him).

5 On that day His feet will stand on Mt Olive. The Mt will split in 2 from east to west. Then the Lord your God will come, & all the saints with Him.
(MY NOTE: The LORD my God shall come & all the saints are with him)

Jude 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
(MY NOTE: When the Lord returns ten thousands of his saints are with him)

1 Thes 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
(MY NOTE: When the Lord Jesus returns ALL his saints are with him)

 

[Runningman]

Below find 4 more translations pre 1611 KJV that ALL say departure not falling away.

1526 Tyndale Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (B) ""the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst"" and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

1537 Matthews Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (B) ""the Lord cometh not/except ther come a departure"" that the sinfull man opened/the son of perdition

1535 Miles Coverdale Bible (1535)
2 Thes 2:3 Let noman disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORD commeth not, ""except the departynge come 1st"" and that that Man of synne be opened, euen the sonne of perdicion,

1540 The Great Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (B) ""the lord comes not except a departure first"", and the sinfull man be showed, son of perdition,

But what is the nature of the departure and what is departing? Given the whole context of 2 Thessalonians 2 it wouldn't make sense for the church to depart in a pre-trib rapture since one of the conditions for the day of Christ to come and our gathering to Him is the man of sin being revealed.

Since Jesus destroys the man of sin with His coming then the departure of the church would come immediately after the great tribulation. The church is raptured when Jesus comes and the man of sin is destroyed when Jesus comes.

Find supporting scripture on Gods people (Body of Christ/Church) escaping wrath:

We see here the church escaping the wrath of the great tribulation soon to be poured out

1 Thes 1:10, And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even ""Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come""

Rom 5:9 being now justified by his blood ""we shall be saved from wrath"" through him

1 thes 5:9 ""God hath not appointed us to wrath"" but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

The angels couldn’t destroy Sodom and Gomorrah until Lot and his family were clear

Noah and his family were delivered from wrath before the flood came

The great tribulation to come is called the time of Jacobs/Israels trouble Jer 30:7.

The church is not the object of God's wrath. Noah was protected during the flood, not taken to heaven. If Noah didn't obey God the flood would have washed him and his family away.

Romans 5:9 is talking about escaping God's wrath on judgment day. Those covered by the blood of Christ will not be judged by their sins. We all have sins, Who is the only One Who can save us from the wrath we deserve for those sins?

Lot was not taken to heaven either. He had to flee the geographical locations where God's wrath was coming down.

Check out Like 17:20-37

Additionally:

At the physical return when Jesus STANDS on MT. Olive. The caught-up/raptured saints are with the Lord.

Zec 14:
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
(MY NOTE: When Jesus returns HIS FEET shall stand on Mt Olives (same place he ascended from Acts 1:9-11)

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
(MY NOTE: The LORD my God shall come & all the saints are with him).

5 On that day His feet will stand on Mt Olive. The Mt will split in 2 from east to west. Then the Lord your God will come, & all the saints with Him.
(MY NOTE: The LORD my God shall come & all the saints are with him)

Revelation 14:1 says that only applies to 144,000 and not 10,000 saints as Jude 14 or the book of Enoch states. Back the the drawing board on that one.

In any case, it occurs just before the harvest of the earth in Revelation 14.

Jude 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
(MY NOTE: When the Lord returns ten thousands of his saints are with him)

1 Thes 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
(MY NOTE: When the Lord Jesus returns ALL his saints are with him)

The saints Jesus brings with Him are not rapture saints, rather they are deceased saints from the first resurrection which happens when He descends from heaven to take those who are alive and remain.

They are "asleep in Jesus" prior to their resurrection. They aren't the raptured church.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.