Greater Things Shall Ye Do
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MFJ, just for the record, I would equate 100% the miracles that the Apostles performed with those of Jesus. What you described as being miracles in regard to Jesus' mission, are technically not miracles as far as what Jesus meant. For, he would never expect them to claim Messiahship or be the Son of God, or anything related to this office, obviously.
All the prophets from old and the disciples of Jesus' time, that performed miracles, as far as magnitude is concerned, excercised the Holy Spirit to the same degree that Jesus did.
Moses parted the sea, brought water from a rock. Both Elisha & Elijah raised the dead and parted the river. Elisha fed many with a little, healed a leper, raised an axehead, his dead body brought another to life. Both Peter & Paul raised the dead and healed paralytics. The 70 sent out by Jesus performed countless and extraordinary miracles, as did Stephen & Philip, etc... Therefore, physically speaking, Christ did not out-perform the old and new testaments saints in miracles.
I believe that this is an important point as it makes one appreciate the generosity and love of Jesus (as he endows us with the same gifts that he was given), and plus, the insignificance of these phenomena in the scope of the entire Gospel (these will cease in the Kingdom). i.e. if there is any level where men can equate their power or significance with that of Christ (which, undoubtfully there are), it inherently must not be a profound, soteriological and eternal principle.
That is, just because we invoked as much power as he did, does not put us on the same level as him, therefore, miracles are a sign of gifts from God, not of majesty or honour.
All the prophets from old and the disciples of Jesus' time, that performed miracles, as far as magnitude is concerned, excercised the Holy Spirit to the same degree that Jesus did.
Moses parted the sea, brought water from a rock. Both Elisha & Elijah raised the dead and parted the river. Elisha fed many with a little, healed a leper, raised an axehead, his dead body brought another to life. Both Peter & Paul raised the dead and healed paralytics. The 70 sent out by Jesus performed countless and extraordinary miracles, as did Stephen & Philip, etc... Therefore, physically speaking, Christ did not out-perform the old and new testaments saints in miracles.
I believe that this is an important point as it makes one appreciate the generosity and love of Jesus (as he endows us with the same gifts that he was given), and plus, the insignificance of these phenomena in the scope of the entire Gospel (these will cease in the Kingdom). i.e. if there is any level where men can equate their power or significance with that of Christ (which, undoubtfully there are), it inherently must not be a profound, soteriological and eternal principle.
That is, just because we invoked as much power as he did, does not put us on the same level as him, therefore, miracles are a sign of gifts from God, not of majesty or honour.
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Greater is used in two ways. One in positions. Loving authority willing submissiveness. And the other greater of the same more of miracle.
Perhaps 500 during the three years of his earthly where affected by the gospel. There were 120 at the time of Pentecost .
When Peter spoke fulfilling the promise in Joel. 3000 entered the kingdom of God. The greater number. . not miracle can't get any greater than salvation. Everything else is lesser. He must increase. .
Perhaps 500 during the three years of his earthly where affected by the gospel. There were 120 at the time of Pentecost .
When Peter spoke fulfilling the promise in Joel. 3000 entered the kingdom of God. The greater number. . not miracle can't get any greater than salvation. Everything else is lesser. He must increase. .
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in Me will do the works I have been doing,
and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
(John 14:12)
couple points: and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
(John 14:12)
- the word here 'greater' is 'megas' -- it's not a word describing 'more numerous;' that would be 'polys'
- the scripture explicitly tells us 'why/how' -- "because I am going to the Father"
out right interpretation is one that recognizes that He's not speaking about 'larger quantities of works' and also incorporates/explains how that the works one who believes in Him does are 'mega-works' because He has returned to the Father.
i must have listened to 50 sermons on this topic - almost every single one on sermonaudio - and not found a single preacher who doesn't contradict one or both of these necessary requirements. about 75% of the sermonizings ((iirc)) are claiming that they, being preachers, reach wider audiences than God-in-the-flesh ever did, so they, the people preaching, do greater works. as tho any preaching at all is worth a pile of mud if Christ isn't in it, and His own Spirit being the one who opens the ear and the understanding so that the preaching of the word is effective in the hearer! rubbish, IMO. not to mention that this interpretation makes preachers behind pulpits and microphones on radio shows the only Christians doing "great works"! vanity & rubbish, IMO, and inconsistent with the text and with right doctrine.
the other ~ 25% of sermonizing i've heard attributes the miracles the apostles worked to being 'more numerous' therefore ((they say)) 'greater' - again ignoring that the word itself isn't generally a quantitative connotation, that the apostles drove out demons and healed etc. while Christ was still walking among them - not satisfying the reason Christ Himself gave in this saying, and also ignores that Christ Himself healed thousands of people, and worked incredible numbers of miracles - the gospel records are not at all exhaustive accounts of all He said and did, but examples for us to portray what three years of going about preaching and performing wonders testifying of His person were like.
can you tell that i've spent an amount of time looking for answers to the OP question and been pretty disappointed with the teachings i've found on the subject? lol
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you're welcome 
i know i just rained on most of the parade with my earlier post. srry bout that... but my understanding is that the majority of what's said about this verse is just flat wrong, and seeing wrong things taught all over as if they're right irritates me.
i think it needs to be put together with this:
the same works, and greater - not more numerous, but greater - because He goes to the Father.
what are the works of God?
what is greater than what God has done?
what does God mean by 'greater'?
if it's really God who works in us, what does God mean by 'they will do' works?
if the work of God is to believe Him, isn't it 'greater' that we, not having seen signs, not having seen Him, believe - greater than those who saw Him and believed, who witnessed miracles and believed because of what they saw? as God defines greater. how does God define great? we have on the one hand the pharisees loading the treasury with gold and the widow giving her last thin dime. we have on the one had the people saying 'lord lord, look, we cast out demons and did mighty works!' and we have on the other hand the man sitting in the shadow in the back of the sanctuary crying have mercy on me, a sinner. we have millionaires preaching to crowds of tens of thousands and we have a dope addict wishing he could stop and still believing God's going to work things out even tho he got laid off of work, his mom died on thanksgiving and his wife left him 'to make enough $$ to get ahead' - she's stripping on the other side of the country.
which works are the 'great' ones, in God's eyes?
i think it's Joseph, rotting in jail but keeping the faith. Paul & Silas singing hymns awaiting execution. Tyndale being burned at the stake for trying to get the scripture into the hands of people so they can read it, praying 'Lord open the eyes of the king of England.' it's people we've never heard of, living and dying in ghettos holding onto hope for something better after this life if they just keep believing. it's the woman who knew if she could just touch the hem of his robe she'd be healed. it's the woman who knows she won't be healed but still trusts Him.
i know i just rained on most of the parade with my earlier post. srry bout that... but my understanding is that the majority of what's said about this verse is just flat wrong, and seeing wrong things taught all over as if they're right irritates me.
i think it needs to be put together with this:
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed:
blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
(John 20:29)
and with this:Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
(John 6:26-29)
and keeping this in mind, so we don't go off the rails:for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
(Philippians 2:13)
the same works, and greater - not more numerous, but greater - because He goes to the Father.
what are the works of God?
what is greater than what God has done?
what does God mean by 'greater'?
if it's really God who works in us, what does God mean by 'they will do' works?
if the work of God is to believe Him, isn't it 'greater' that we, not having seen signs, not having seen Him, believe - greater than those who saw Him and believed, who witnessed miracles and believed because of what they saw? as God defines greater. how does God define great? we have on the one hand the pharisees loading the treasury with gold and the widow giving her last thin dime. we have on the one had the people saying 'lord lord, look, we cast out demons and did mighty works!' and we have on the other hand the man sitting in the shadow in the back of the sanctuary crying have mercy on me, a sinner. we have millionaires preaching to crowds of tens of thousands and we have a dope addict wishing he could stop and still believing God's going to work things out even tho he got laid off of work, his mom died on thanksgiving and his wife left him 'to make enough $$ to get ahead' - she's stripping on the other side of the country.
which works are the 'great' ones, in God's eyes?
i think it's Joseph, rotting in jail but keeping the faith. Paul & Silas singing hymns awaiting execution. Tyndale being burned at the stake for trying to get the scripture into the hands of people so they can read it, praying 'Lord open the eyes of the king of England.' it's people we've never heard of, living and dying in ghettos holding onto hope for something better after this life if they just keep believing. it's the woman who knew if she could just touch the hem of his robe she'd be healed. it's the woman who knows she won't be healed but still trusts Him.
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If you follow that verse, you have to believe the healings that you see today are at least equal to what was done during the 4 Gospels.
But you said you were "not sure that I believe cripples are being healed or that blind are getting their sight restored"
That was my conclusion from what you stated.
But you said you were "not sure that I believe cripples are being healed or that blind are getting their sight restored"
That was my conclusion from what you stated.
you're welcome
i know i just rained on most of the parade with my earlier post. srry bout that... but my understanding is that the majority of what's said about this verse is just flat wrong, and seeing wrong things taught all over as if they're right irritates me.
i think it needs to be put together with this:
the same works, and greater - not more numerous, but greater - because He goes to the Father.
what are the works of God?
what is greater than what God has done?
what does God mean by 'greater'?
if it's really God who works in us, what does God mean by 'they will do' works?
if the work of God is to believe Him, isn't it 'greater' that we, not having seen signs, not having seen Him, believe - greater than those who saw Him and believed, who witnessed miracles and believed because of what they saw? as God defines greater. how does God define great? we have on the one hand the pharisees loading the treasury with gold and the widow giving her last thin dime. we have on the one had the people saying 'lord lord, look, we cast out demons and did mighty works!' and we have on the other hand the man sitting in the shadow in the back of the sanctuary crying have mercy on me, a sinner. we have millionaires preaching to crowds of tens of thousands and we have a dope addict wishing he could stop and still believing God's going to work things out even tho he got laid off of work, his mom died on thanksgiving and his wife left him 'to make enough $$ to get ahead' - she's stripping on the other side of the country.
which works are the 'great' ones, in God's eyes?
i think it's Joseph, rotting in jail but keeping the faith. Paul & Silas singing hymns awaiting execution. Tyndale being burned at the stake for trying to get the scripture into the hands of people so they can read it, praying 'Lord open the eyes of the king of England.' it's people we've never heard of, living and dying in ghettos holding onto hope for something better after this life if they just keep believing. it's the woman who knew if she could just touch the hem of his robe she'd be healed. it's the woman who knows she won't be healed but still trusts Him.
i know i just rained on most of the parade with my earlier post. srry bout that... but my understanding is that the majority of what's said about this verse is just flat wrong, and seeing wrong things taught all over as if they're right irritates me.
i think it needs to be put together with this:
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed:
blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
(John 20:29)
and with this:Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
(John 6:26-29)
and keeping this in mind, so we don't go off the rails:for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
(Philippians 2:13)
the same works, and greater - not more numerous, but greater - because He goes to the Father.
what are the works of God?
what is greater than what God has done?
what does God mean by 'greater'?
if it's really God who works in us, what does God mean by 'they will do' works?
if the work of God is to believe Him, isn't it 'greater' that we, not having seen signs, not having seen Him, believe - greater than those who saw Him and believed, who witnessed miracles and believed because of what they saw? as God defines greater. how does God define great? we have on the one hand the pharisees loading the treasury with gold and the widow giving her last thin dime. we have on the one had the people saying 'lord lord, look, we cast out demons and did mighty works!' and we have on the other hand the man sitting in the shadow in the back of the sanctuary crying have mercy on me, a sinner. we have millionaires preaching to crowds of tens of thousands and we have a dope addict wishing he could stop and still believing God's going to work things out even tho he got laid off of work, his mom died on thanksgiving and his wife left him 'to make enough $$ to get ahead' - she's stripping on the other side of the country.
which works are the 'great' ones, in God's eyes?
i think it's Joseph, rotting in jail but keeping the faith. Paul & Silas singing hymns awaiting execution. Tyndale being burned at the stake for trying to get the scripture into the hands of people so they can read it, praying 'Lord open the eyes of the king of England.' it's people we've never heard of, living and dying in ghettos holding onto hope for something better after this life if they just keep believing. it's the woman who knew if she could just touch the hem of his robe she'd be healed. it's the woman who knows she won't be healed but still trusts Him.
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