Gun rights - for or against?

[AllenW]

This does show an incredible amount of trust in God.
But God does not want many things that happen.

A woman in my old neighborhood was shot and killed in her own home.
Why? Because thieves broke into her home and she was home sick instead of being at work.

Do you suppose God wanted this to happen?
Maybe having a gun would have made no difference.

I do think this: If EVERY HOME had a gun in it, thieves would think twice.
Instead, like this, we're like sitting ducks.

I'm afraid I don't have as much faith. Not because I don't have faith in God, but because I know the other one si at work too.

Strongholds of the enemy are broken by prayer.
Build up a strong prayer base in your home and see the difference.

 

[hornetguy]

What does all this have to do with "today"?
Why not quote Ted Nugent?
He's a good Christian, isn't he?

It has everything to do with today.... it explains very well what the founders of our country thought about the freedom to own firearms, and why it was/is so important.

Ted Nugent gets it, though. You should read his book...

 

[hornetguy]

This does show an incredible amount of trust in God.
But God does not want many things that happen.

A woman in my old neighborhood was shot and killed in her own home.
Why? Because thieves broke into her home and she was home sick instead of being at work.

Do you suppose God wanted this to happen?
Maybe having a gun would have made no difference.

I do think this: If EVERY HOME had a gun in it, thieves would think twice.
Instead, like this, we're like sitting ducks.

I'm afraid I don't have as much faith. Not because I don't have faith in God, but because I know the other one si at work too.

even Jesus knew there were times when the followers should be armed....

[SUP]35 [/SUP]And He said to them, “When I sent you out without money belt and bag and sandals, you did not lack anything, did you?” They said, “No, nothing.” [SUP]36 [/SUP]And He said to them, “But now, [SUP][e][/SUP]whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and [SUP][f][/SUP]whoever has no sword is to sell his [SUP][g][/SUP]coat and buy one. [SUP]37 [/SUP]For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, ‘And He was numbered with transgressors’; for that which refers to Me has its [SUP][h][/SUP]fulfillment.” [SUP]38 [/SUP]They said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” And He said to them, “It is enough.”

 

[Desdichado]

I wish to point out a central irony and leave it out there for consumption. It is, truth be told, an opinion based on anecdote.

I've lived in places with strict gun control laws and places without strict gun control laws. Here are my observations.

1. Gun control laws are not an absolute indicator for whether or not a person feels "under siege" as someone else put it. Generally, there are other factors involved. People who live very close the AZ- Mexico border feel under siege, but they would feel that way regardless of whether there were guns available or not.

2. That said, if other circumstances are similar, places with higher 2A-sanctioned gun ownership rates are typically safer, friendlier, and more open. I'm thinking specifically of areas in the Eastern US.

Granted, much of this has to do with a local mentality. Super 2A areas also seem to have higher rates of Church attendance, a greater inclination toward patriotism, friendliness toward law enforcement, etc.

Put simply, there is no absolute positive correlation between the presence of law abiding gun owners and safe communities. You can have safe communities without high levels of gun ownership. Just ask the Japanese.

More importantly, there is no absolutely negative correlation either. Many happy communities exist with plenty of guns.

This experience belies the broad array of memes being bandied about on the forum- that guns are corrupting death talismans. Or that the Christians who choose to own guns are some how of lesser value than those who do not. Most people who own guns are paranoid amateurs at life. Etc.

I take an unusual tack- if you are bothered by guns and gun ownership or feel called by the Lord not to bear arms. By all means. But that doesn't mean Christians who choose to arm themselves are somehow lesser when there is no real Biblical prescription one way or another.

 

[Desdichado]

I do. But why wouldn't I? Walther had to go and make it so easy with the PPS.

I suppose I should say that I've never seen a gun in a church, nor has anyone ever said they had one. If I saw one, or heard someone having one, I would not go to that church. I'm very leery around guns. I hope that people are not bringing guns to church.

 

[Galatea]

The same could be said of dangerous drivers. Plenty of them on the roads that cause accidents and deaths. A car can easily be used as a weapon to kill someone unfortunately. But not all are reckless drivers.

No doubt there are many with martial arts training, and we'll never know who they are. Their training doesn't need knives and gun to kill someone. But with that type of training comes a responsibility and awareness. They would never get rattled by someone provoking them when they know their training could easily kill someone. They would only use it if their life depended on it. I know of someone who never drinks for this reason, because he doesn't want to lose control.

I used to really fear guns too, especially if I saw someone open carrying. But one day that changed and I realized I needed to know how to defend myself. Also, my husband would leave his gun laying around the house, so he wanted me to know how to handle it safely.

Once you go through basic training you become more familiar with all aspects of it, including safety. So when you come across people carrying them you're more aware of all the constant checks they do when handling their gun, since they've been through that same basic training and have that knowledge. So you do (somewhat) have peace of mind.

The criminals will always have guns.

I understand that people can get trained, but not everyone is trained. Or if they are trained, they may not always be careful. Even if I were trained myself, I would not trust myself around a gun simply because I know how lackadaisical I am. I am sure there are other lackadaisacal people who do carry guns, which scares me.

I know there are knives and cars and other weapons- but none of those things cause as much carnage in such a short period of time as automatic and semiautomatic weapons.

Most of these mass shooters are not criminals. They generally have clean records, so are legally able to but weapons of mass destruction. I am not trying to be hyperbolic, but Omar Manteen killed 49, which to me is mass destruction. Maybe he'd not have been able to kill as many if he could not buy an automatic or semiautomatic.

 

[AllenW]

It has everything to do with today.... it explains very well what the founders of our country thought about the freedom to own firearms, and why it was/is so important.

Ted Nugent gets it, though. You should read his book...

Ted Nugent was a draft dodger, very unamerican.
You should read his story on that.

 

[AllenW]

even Jesus knew there were times when the followers should be armed....

Has that prophesy been fulfilled?
If it has, then there is no longer any need for the 2 swords.

 

[AllenW]

I wish to point out a central irony and leave it out there for consumption. It is, truth be told, an opinion based on anecdote.

I've lived in places with strict gun control laws and places without strict gun control laws. Here are my observations.

1. Gun control laws are not an absolute indicator for whether or not a person feels "under siege" as someone else put it. Generally, there are other factors involved. People who live very close the AZ- Mexico border feel under siege, but they would feel that way regardless of whether there were guns available or not.

2. That said, if other circumstances are similar, places with higher 2A-sanctioned gun ownership rates are typically safer, friendlier, and more open. I'm thinking specifically of areas in the Eastern US.

Granted, much of this has to do with a local mentality. Super 2A areas also seem to have higher rates of Church attendance, a greater inclination toward patriotism, friendliness toward law enforcement, etc.

Put simply, there is no absolute positive correlation between the presence of law abiding gun owners and safe communities. You can have safe communities without high levels of gun ownership. Just ask the Japanese.

More importantly, there is no absolutely negative correlation either. Many happy communities exist with plenty of guns.

This experience belies the broad array of memes being bandied about on the forum- that guns are corrupting death talismans. Or that the Christians who choose to own guns are some how of lesser value than those who do not. Most people who own guns are paranoid amateurs at life. Etc.

I take an unusual tack- if you are bothered by guns and gun ownership or feel called by the Lord not to bear arms. By all means. But that doesn't mean Christians who choose to arm themselves are somehow lesser when there is no real Biblical prescription one way or another.

The side I take has to do with showing the other side there is another way.
That seems to be something you overlooked in your quote.

 

[Galatea]

I do. But why wouldn't I? Walther had to go and make it so easy with the PPS.

I had to read this a few times. Walther and PPS were Greek to me, until I deduced Walther must make guns and PPS must be a make of gun.

I suppose you would not carry a gun to church if you do not think anyone is there to attack you? But maybe you attend a church with violent parishioners.

 

[Desdichado]

A likely story.

But I'll take you at your word. It's only fair.

The side I take has to do with showing the other side there is another way.
That seems to be something you overlooked in your quote.

 

[AllenW]

A likely story.

But I'll take you at your word. It's only fair.

Actually, it's my entire purpose of my responses.
I've been in enough of these debates to have refined my answers a bit.

 

[Desdichado]

Hahahaha. You know I never saw it as looking Greek before. Now that you put it that way, I'd argue it looks more Latin. Makes me think of the Papacy.

But you're right. It's a make and model of a firearm.

On the matter of guns in pews.

Carrying anywhere and everywhere is not unlike buying insurance. When you make your monthly payment to Allstate, State Farm, Nationwide, etc, do you think of all the terrible and gruesome things that could happen to you in your vehicle?

No. It's a payment. But a wise payment to make. Just in case.

Likewise, a gun on one's hip is a wise precaution. When I rack the slide, slip it in my holster, and tuck in my waistband, I do not contemplate all the gruesome things that could happen. I do not close my eyes and picture a dude looking to shoot up a Church in Colorado or some freakshow trying to kill off my colleagues at baseball practice.

Nope, it's just a couple of pounds on my hip at the ready. So easy to bring that there is no reason not to when I apply a little CBA.

I had to read this a few times. Walther and PPS were Greek to me, until I deduced Walther must make guns and PPS must be a make of gun.

I suppose you would not carry a gun to church if you do not think anyone is there to attack you? But maybe you attend a church with violent parishioners.

 

[Desdichado]

Very well. I understand.

My purpose here, as I see it, is not too different from yours.

I do not believe I can really persuade anti-2A people to my way of thinking through the usual means in this type of format.

I can, however, do something to dismantle the idea that 2A Christians are somehow lesser Christians at best.

Actually, it's my entire purpose of my responses.
I've been in enough of these debates to have refined my answers a bit.

 

[Conversationand]

I had to read this a few times. Walther and PPS were Greek to me, until I deduced Walther must make guns and PPS must be a make of gun.

I suppose you would not carry a gun to church if you do not think anyone is there to attack you? But maybe you attend a church with violent parishioners.

I've never been part of a church where no one carried. That's just my experience, but it's worth noting.
---
I grew up with guns. They are a ton of fun and can be a great hobby. As a Christian, I choose to not carry because I feel it does not fit with who we are called to be. That does not mean I don't think there are situations where guns are a good choice. I will have a family one day and I will protect that family by whatever means necessary including guns.

Let me also say that I don't think people in other countries can take their unique experience and place it on top of ours. In the same way I wouldn't bolt on modern American feminism to say politics in Qatar, I don't think it's fair to say that the laws that have worked for others will work for us. Many people don't understand what the size of the country and the lack of geographic and cultural homogeny does to the populace and social structure of the country. For instance, the entire UK is just over half the size of California and is just starting to approach the sort of demographic spread represented in the US. Though it's still a full 15 percentage points more homogeneous and doesn't (at this point) share the unique characteristics of US demographics.

 

[AllenW]

Very well. I understand.

My purpose here, as I see it, is not too different from yours.

I do not believe I can really persuade anti-2A people to my way of thinking through the usual means in this type of format.

I can, however, do something to dismantle the idea that 2A Christians are somehow lesser Christians at best.

If I've given that impression, please forgive me.
It's not intentional.

 

[FranC]

Strongholds of the enemy are broken by prayer.
Build up a strong prayer base in your home and see the difference.

Not everyone is a prayer warrior.
But I'll try.
I just hope I never need one,
because I don't have one.

 

[Desdichado]

This is my experience too. To be honest, I wouldn't know how to find a good, Bible-believing church in this country where absolutely nobody is carrying.

You'd have to roll the dice right that day.

I've never been part of a church where no one carried. That's just my experience, but it's worth noting.

 

[Desdichado]

If I seem particularly hostile towards you, that isn't my intention either brother. Far from it.

I'm happy we both can present different points of view with this level of civility.

If I've given that impression, please forgive me.
It's not intentional.

 

[Jennie-Mae]

My dad, who was a sheriff before retirement, has always been clear on one thing: Learn to handle a gun, carry if need be and be prepared to use it. I'm not ashamed to say I live by that.