Think about Israel today as a combination of "those who fear the Lord" and "those who are arrogant" per Malachi 4.Israel today are the people of God? Hmmmm. Do they worship Him? Are they in covenant with Him?
Think about Israel today as a combination of "those who fear the Lord" and "those who are arrogant" per Malachi 4.Israel today are the people of God? Hmmmm. Do they worship Him? Are they in covenant with Him?
Israel is a secular nation no different from any other. They are not in covenant relationship with God. Hence, not the people of God.Think about Israel today as a combination of "those who fear the Lord" and "those who are arrogant" per Malachi 4.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Israel is a secular nation no different from any other. They are not in covenant relationship with God. Hence, not the people of God.
Romans 11:23----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Genesis17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.
“I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever.” – Ezekiel 37:26
“For their sake he remembered his covenant and out of his great love he relented.” – Psalm 106:45
“I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.” – Romans 11:1
Where does the scripture say seven years or is that inferred from the missing week in Daniel?
Okay, I am willing to accept that if true. On what basis do you believe that Israel no longer has a covenant relationship with God?Israel is a secular nation no different from any other. They are not in covenant relationship with God. Hence, not the people of God.
Dan 9:27 RSVWhere does the scripture say seven years or is that inferred from the missing week in Daniel?
I do believe there is a time when God will save vast numbers of Jewish people. But they will come to God, not as a nation, but individually under the new covenant. There is no longer a distinction between Jew and Greek and there is no longer a covenant that covers a particular nation.Okay, I am willing to accept that if true. On what basis do you believe that Israel no longer has a covenant relationship with God?
Here is how I see it. Israel was taken into exile during the Jewish/Roman wars of the first century. The prophets, including Jesus, predicted this would happen, and it did. The prophets also predicted that the people would return to the Land. And they have. This seems like a very significant development worthy of our attention as Bible students.
In the book of Deuteronomy, God promised that he would circumcise the hearts of those who returned. I think he will do that. I don't know when. But I believe God will keep his promise.
You just described the new covenant, not the old covenant.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Genesis17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.
“I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever.” – Ezekiel 37:26
“For their sake he remembered his covenant and out of his great love he relented.” – Psalm 106:45
“I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.” – Romans 11:1
In God's prophetic word, there remains a distinction between Israel, as a nation, and all the other nations. I agree that God will save many Jewish people. And they will come to him individually.I do believe there is a time when God will save vast numbers of Jewish people. But they will come to God, not as a nation, but individually under the new covenant. There is no longer a distinction between Jew and Greek and there is no longer a covenant that covers a particular nation.
I appreciate you sharing, but we are getting into the weeds. My point is simple: God is not in covenant relationship with the nation Israel currently. Therefore, the current state of Israel is not God's people.In God's prophetic word, there remains a distinction between Israel, as a nation, and all the other nations. I agree that God will save many Jewish people. And they will come to him individually.
However, when we discuss "salvation," we must bear in mind that the Bible presents two distinct concepts: salvation of the soul and salvation of the body. Jesus does both.
Let me explain,
In the Greco‑Roman world, a sōtēr was a deliverer‑king—a ruler, general, or benefactor who rescued a people from danger, restored stability, or secured victory over enemies. Cities hailed victorious commanders as sōtēres because they brought national rescue, not merely personal benefit. The term carried political weight: a sōtēr was the one who preserved the nation, defended its borders, crushed its oppressors, and re‑established peace. This is why Hellenistic kings like Ptolemy I and Demetrius I bore the title, and why gods such as Zeus Soter were invoked for protection. In short, the cultural imagination of the first‑century world heard sōtēr as the arrival of a national deliverer, someone who saves the people—not just individuals—from the forces that threaten their existence.
This background helps us understand the New Testament’s use of Savior language, especially in Luke’s opening chapters, where Israel’s ancient hope for national deliverance rises to the surface. Zechariah blesses God for raising up “a horn of salvation” to deliver Israel from her enemies and from all who hate her—a direct echo of the sōtēr expectation. Mary sings of a Messiah who lifts Israel, topples oppressors, and rescues the nation. Simeon sees in the infant Jesus God’s salvation prepared “before all peoples,” the glory of Israel restored. These early scenes show that faithful Jews were not merely waiting for forgiveness of sins; they were waiting for the Davidic deliverer who would save the nation itself. The New Testament takes the familiar Greco‑Roman category of a national savior and fills it with Israel’s prophetic hope: Jesus is the true sōtēr who brings both spiritual redemption and the long‑promised deliverance of Israel.
Many would certainly agree with you. And I am not here to disagree with you. I can't tell from afar whether Israel is in a covenant relationship with God and neither can I know what is in anyone's heart.I appreciate you sharing, but we are getting into the weeds. My point is simple: God is not in covenant relationship with the nation Israel currently. Therefore, the current state of Israel is not God's people.
It's not hard to tell whether the nation Israel is under a covenantal relationship with God or not. Simply identify the covenant.Many would certainly agree with you. And I am not here to disagree with you. I can't tell from afar whether Israel is in a covenant relationship with God and neither can I know what is in anyone's heart.
As a side note, am often curious about which prophetic passages remain to be fulfilled. For instance, I wondered if October 7 was a fulfillment of Zechariah 14. But I don't know. Knowing when a prophecy was fulfilled is a tricky thing.
Yes. In Daniel 9:24, the text explicitly states that the 70 weeks (or 70 sevens of years, totaling 490 years) are decreed specifically for Daniel’s people (the Jewish nation/Israel) and his holy city (Jerusalem). [1, 2, 3]What happens in the middle of the 7
3 Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.
What is the covenant that only lasts for one week?Dan 9:27 RSV
. 27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”
AMP
And he will enter into a binding and irrevocable covenant with the many for one week (seven years), but in the middle of the week he will stop the sacrifice and grain offering [for the remaining three and one-half years]; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until the complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who causes the horror.”
CJB
He will make a strong covenant with leaders for one week [of years]. For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering. On the wing of detestable things the desolator will come and continue until the already decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.”
KJV
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
NIV
He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”