Have the New Testament Charismatic gifts ceased?

[Mitspa]

Now you are turning things back around.
For the last few responses was about Judas, and how the bible clearly shows he was lost.
For Jesus Himself said He lost Judas, so that scripture could be fulfilled.
Thomas on the other hand said he did not believe in the resurrection tell he saw the Lord for himself and the wounds He suffered, and put his hand in the wound.
Paul said in Romans that if you confess in Him coming in the flesh, died on the cross, and the resurrection you will be saved. Pointing to all aspects of the Lord have to be believed on, to be saved. Not just a mere belief style.

the discussion was never about Judas...but was about Thomas ..you know that

 

[kennethcadwell]

the discussion was never about Judas...but was about Thomas ..you know that

It started off with Thomas, but you actually brought Judas into the mix by stating only the partial scripture of Jesus saying He did not lose one. I pointed out to you the rest of that scripture that showed He did lose one of His disciples, and that was Judas who betrayed Him.
As for Thomas is concerned I answered that, but let me post it to you in another way;

Do you believe in the Lord if you don't believe He came in the flesh ? NO

Do you believe in the Lord if you don't believe in what His death on the cross meant ? NO

Do you believe in the Lord if you don't believe in the resurrection ? NO

Do you believe in the Lord if you don't follow His commands ? NO

Do you believe in the Lord if you hate other people ? No

Do you believe in the Lord if you refuse to do for other people in need ? NO

 

[kaylagrl]

Would you be willing to provide evidence? There is a biblical precedence for it considering all those Jesus healed could not keep it contained and spread it everywhere. They were people many others had seen in an intensive state or obviously crippled state for years and the evidence was undeniable. Today, I would expect someone would be so happy they'd post on blogs, websites, youtube videos, and completely willing to share medical records and doctors testimonies. Please provide proof, or it's just another unconfirmed story.

The miracles in Jesus' day were not hidden and were undeniable, even by the pharisees.

Other than my father coming on here to testify I dont know how I could prove anything to you. My friend you need to stop being so literal.The Bible says Jesus did many miracles not written in the Bible,how do you know all where done in public and all were talked about and spread around.I know missionaries that have seen people raised from the dead.But you are like Thomas,unless you're there to see it in person it didnt happen? You want to see proof of cancer being healed? A cripple walking,the blind seeing?! Why dont you take God at His word and start seeing it happen when YOU pray for healing of a cripple.Then you can see it proof positive for yourself,front row seat. Jesus healed all that came to him.He never turned anyone away.You're telling me if Jesus was walking the earth now he'd look at a cripple child in a wheelchair and say "sorry kid,miracles ended in the NT,you're out of luck." No!!! He'd say "take up your bed and walk!!" There is no verifiable medical report that Jesus truly healed anyone.Did anyone interview them a year or two later to make sure they stayed healed? No,of course not! But you know and believe Jesus healed.There are endless accounts,missionaries,evangelists,preachers,everyday Christians that have been miraculously healed. It is extremely immature of you to say because you dont have the right proof so their healing didn't happen! Ludicrous !! They would say the same as the blind man who was doubted "this I know,once I was blind and now I see!!" Folk like you are exactly the reason we dont see those types of healing today! But I tell you back in the day when you couldnt just go to a doctor people were healed by the power of God.Talk to your grandparents,great grandparents if you have them.They will tell you !! Revivals have happened over the years with many being saved,healed and delivered. You say God healing pain is not a miracle.So now you're telling God what a miracle is? Son you are young.Go speak to the elder saints of your church and you will hear of Gods miracle working power that still holds true for today!

 

[kaylagrl]

It is a confirmation of Gods declaration that they would end.

It does not matter how good something seems if it detracts from Christ it is not good. Do you choose a church because of gifts or because Christ is preached there?

I've asked you before if all the trappings of Pentecostalism are removed from the church will folks still come? Is the preaching of Gods word the most important part of the service?

Many churches today do not even have a pulpit. It has been replaced by the stage for entertainment oops worship music.

If folks are not getting saved and their lives changed for Christ what are we doing?

The church is to influence society not adapt itself to society. We are to conform to Christ not conform to the world lite.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

And here I agree with you!!! I went to a church where they spent an hour in worship service and less than half an hour preaching!! But that doesn't just happen in Pentecostal/Charismatic churches. As I have mentioned before I traveled and sang for 20yrs so I have been in a loooooot of churches. Worship has become a church fad.I go to a country church now,the pastor is Pentecostal and we have 2 songs to begin the service,one to end. You're totally right here.There we do agree on things lol

 

[phil112]

Other than my father coming on here to testify I dont know how I could prove anything to you. ...........................

Wouldn't help.

"Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

 

[Hizikyah]

It started off with Thomas, but you actually brought Judas into the mix by stating only the partial scripture of Jesus saying He did not lose one. I pointed out to you the rest of that scripture that showed He did lose one of His disciples, and that was Judas who betrayed Him.
As for Thomas is concerned I answered that, but let me post it to you in another way;

Do you believe in the Lord if you don't believe He came in the flesh ? NO

Do you believe in the Lord if you don't believe in what His death on the cross meant ? NO

Do you believe in the Lord if you don't believe in the resurrection ? NO

Do you believe in the Lord if you don't follow His commands ? NO

Do you believe in the Lord if you hate other people ? No

Do you believe in the Lord if you refuse to do for other people in need ? NO

Not attacking anyone, just posting the Messiah's words;

Yahchanan 8:31, "...If you continue in My doctrine, then you are truly My disciples."

John (Yahchanan) 14:6, "Yahshua proclaimed to him: I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father, except through Me."

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"

Yahchanan (John) 4:25-26, "The woman said to Him; I know that the Messiah comes, and when He comes, He will tell us all things. Yahshua said to her: I am He speaking to you."

Yahchanan (John) 14:23, "Yahshua answered, and said to him: If a man loves Me, he will keep My teachings and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."

Mattithyah 16:27, “For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His Malakim; and then He will reward every man according to his works.”

Mattithyah 28:20, “Teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you. And lo, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Mattithyah 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.

Yahchanan (John) 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" is word #8085 שָׁמַע shama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey

 

[Stephen63]

I'm good with all three chapters but it seems that you do not accept 1 Cor 13:8.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Pleeeeze find a commentary & study this verse. It doesn't means what you think it does.

 

[notuptome]

Pleeeeze find a commentary & study this verse. It doesn't means what you think it does.

It doesn't say what you want it to. You just do not want to face the reality that without the charismatic entertainment you don't have church.

God is still ministering in the local church and the Holy Spirit is finding great liberty to minister in hearts that know humility and surrender. Dig out the pulpit, dust it off and get back to preaching. Saints of God need to hear the word of God declared and sinners need to see saints of God who know how to weep over their sinfulness.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Stephen63]

It is a confirmation of Gods declaration that they would end.

1)It does not matter how good something seems if it detracts from Christ it is not good. Do you choose a church because of gifts or because Christ is preached there?

2) I've asked you before if all the trappings of Pentecostalism are removed from the church will folks still come? Is the preaching of Gods word the most important part of the service?

Many churches today do not even have a pulpit. It has been replaced by the stage for entertainment oops worship music.

If folks are not getting saved and their lives changed for Christ what are we doing?

The church is to influence society not adapt itself to society. We are to conform to Christ not conform to the world lite.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

A confirmation where? Your use of 1Cor 13:8 is a totally flawed & twisted excuse, not a fact at all. Not only so, but there's no other scripture that confirms your version, cuz you'd already used it if it was.

1) I choose a church based on what the Holy Spirit shows me, not simply cuz they have all their ducks in a row. If you're led by the Spirit, you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
2) Trappings? That's quite a judgement call putting everything in one bag & calling it trappings. HOW would anyone believe you after a statement like that? It's your reputation yer building here.
If they removed all the "questionable" things the mega churches do, would their people leave also? What about all the "traditional" teachings of the RCC? Have you forgotten that there are MAJOR problems in every denomination?

The only statement I agree with so far.

They're either leading souls astray or holding on for dear life to true standards of the Bible. We're in the great falling away.

Conforming to the world elite's standards is the in-a-nutshell reason the church is falling away. They may look like they're going different directions, but they'll all wind up serving the Antichrist when it's over.

 

[Mitspa]

It doesn't say what you want it to. You just do not want to face the reality that without the charismatic entertainment you don't have church.

God is still ministering in the local church and the Holy Spirit is finding great liberty to minister in hearts that know humility and surrender. Dig out the pulpit, dust it off and get back to preaching. Saints of God need to hear the word of God declared and sinners need to see saints of God who know how to weep over their sinfulness.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

No they need to see Christians weep with joy because they have been set free from Sin and sins power by grace and have been given the Holy Spirit of God...(The same Holy Spirit)

 

[Hizikyah]

No they need to see Christians weep with joy because they have been set free from Sin and sins power by grace and have been given the Holy Spirit of God...(The same Holy Spirit)

Yes the blood Messiah sets us free from sin! It guides us to righteousness!

Romans 7

7 What? Can anyone therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet.

12 Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous.

23 But I saw another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the Law in my mind, and bringing me into captivity of the law of sin, which is in my members.

25 Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin.

"I have deliverance"

deliverance from "do not steal" or deliverance from breaking "do not steal"

Romans 8:

2 Because through Yahshua Messiah, the Law of the Spirit has set me free from the law of sin and death.

(Romans 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I was carnal, sold into the power of sin.)


3 For what the Law was powerless to do, in that men sought to defeat; overthrow, fit, Yahweh did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, to bear witness against sin. And so He condemned the sins of all mankind."


Yeremyah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

 

[Mitspa]

Yes the blood Messiah sets us free from sin! It guides us to righteousness!

Romans 7

7 What? Can anyone therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet.

12 Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous.

23 But I saw another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the Law in my mind, and bringing me into captivity of the law of sin, which is in my members.

25 Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin.

"I have deliverance"

deliverance from "do not steal" or deliverance from breaking "do not steal"

Romans 8:

2 Because through Yahshua Messiah, the Law of the Spirit has set me free from the law of sin and death.

(Romans 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I was carnal, sold into the power of sin.)


3 For what the Law was powerless to do, in that men sought to defeat; overthrow, fit, Yahweh did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, to bear witness against sin. And so He condemned the sins of all mankind."


Yeremyah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

Are you wanting to start the law and grace debate on this thread? Lets save it for your thread ...where its more in line with the topic

 

[Hizikyah]

Are you wanting to start the law and grace debate on this thread? Lets save it for your thread ...where its more in line with the topic

I don't see a debate, I was agreeing with you and I used Scripture.

I can personally testify that once I truly accepted the Messiah I no longer enjoyed sin, not to say I never error, because I do sin at times, but it does not rule over me and I personally detest it where I used to enjoy it... Hopefully that will clear up any perceived disagreement?

For it is written we would love His ways;

Ezekiyl 36:26-28, "A new heart; mind, will I also give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the heart of stone out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My....do them. And you will dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and you will be My people, and I will be your Father."

 

[Hizikyah]

Are you wanting to start the law and grace debate on this thread? Lets save it for your thread ...where its more in line with the topic

Ohh wait lol!

After you completely took my thread off topic you say this here, lol.

but im probably the bad guy here for bringing it up, so I will chill.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I'm good with all three chapters but it seems that you do not accept 1 Cor 13:8.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I do accept 1 Cor. 13:8 - I accept them ending when "that which is perfect is come" - It's just that I don't see "that which is perfect" as being "scripture" - I don't see scripture "face to face". Are we speaking of a "page" as being a "face"?

So I accept 1 Cor. 13:8 - those signs will cease when that which is perfect is come - when we see Jesus face to face it will be time to put childish things aside for we will KNOW not in part but we will KNOW even as we are known.

 

[Mitspa]

I do accept 1 Cor. 13:8 - I accept them ending when "that which is perfect is come" - It's just that I don't see "that which is perfect" as being "scripture" - I don't see scripture "face to face". Are we speaking of a "page" as being a "face"?

So I accept 1 Cor. 13:8 - those signs will cease when that which is perfect is come - when we see Jesus face to face it will be time to put childish things aside for we will KNOW not in part but we will KNOW even as we are known.

That's the only reasonable reading of that passage...and I wonder if these folks believe that when the cannon was put together in Nicea or wherever ..if they all went in with the gifts of the Holy Spirit...and all came out not having these gifts anymore?

 

[Kev]

The Bible say many things about the Holy Spirit. And there is mention in the bible to the gifts of the Holy Spirit that will be evident in the last days. I believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still for the believers in present day. I believe that Jesus did not leave us without His power to overcome the powers of the enemy. I have went to third word countries and it is more evident there for they do not have a secular world view. I have met many believers that had true power through the Holy Spirit and I have witnessed miracles myself. Here is a YouTube video of a young believer and her experience with the Holy Spirit, I believe this video and it shows how she is very sincere in her doubts she had at first before her experience with the baptism of the Holy Spirit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjpKiFK_Q3w&feature=player_detailpage The bible instructs us to be baptized in the Holy Spirit which is a completely separate experience form being baptized in water. But we have been called to orderly worship too, so with the gifts we are call to be responsible to use the gifts we have been given in a proper manner. I have plenty of scripture references to this as well..

 

[The_highwayman]

Saints of God need to hear the word of God declared and sinners need to see saints of God who know how to weep over their sinfulness.

You live in the sense knowledge of sin consciousness, condemnation and bondage. God is not dealing with the SIN problem today, his only begotten son dealt with that issue over 2,000 years ago.

The Bible says you are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, through faith and this position was given to you by God's grace.

 

[The_highwayman]

He honors it through spiritual growth, not infantile signs. Faith, hope, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Outward signs of change. Inner change. This is the work of the Holy Spirit.

fruit of the spirit are for character.

gifts of the spirit are for service.

The real issue here is your lack of complete understanding of the Holy Spirit and his ministry.

 

[The_highwayman]

Spiritual healing. Not physical. Aches and pains being relieved is not miraculous healing. This is the definition of vanity. No truly crippled people are being healed today. There would be some kind of evidence somewhere, not just endless story after endless story. This stuff would be big and broadcasted broadly. Controlled stage shows do not let truly ill or terminal people on stage.

Maybe if Paul had enough faith, he could have been healed instantly of those injuries?

No greater thing than someone coming to Christ and evangelists have brought more to Christ in the past 2000 years than in the few years during Christ's time. I'd say we have done greater things in that regard.

Works do not mean miracles.

If you want to use the faith in a mustard seed verse, why are people not outside terraforming the landscape with their great faith? If they can heal someone of terminal illness, or have the faith to be healed from terminal illness, why are people not literally moving mountains or controlling the weather when hurricanes are about to destroy thousands? Surely if their faith is so great, we'd be seeing supernatural powers being displayed all over the place and incredible things happening to better the world, no?

God does great things when his Spirit moves on men....

The Bible tells you that.