Have the New Testament Charismatic gifts ceased?

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PrestonMatthew7 said:
open thread for discussion on this topic
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Well, according 1. corinthians 12, 4 ff

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of workings, but it is the same God who works all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man for profit.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another various kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But in all these works that one and same Spirit, dividing to every man individually as he will.
12 For as the body is one, and has many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

We are all received one baptising with the Holy Spirit.
So when we get the gift of the Holy Spirit? So far I know from my own expierience then when we become a children of God.
So when the manifestation of the Holy Spirit is given? According the context then when we receive the Holy Spirit.
There is no scripture which proof that christians which are already baptised with the Holy Spirit need a second baptising with the Holy Spirit for to get the equipped for the ministrie like the sign gifts of healing, speaking in tongues, ore to prophecy.
This doctrine occured first with the pentecostal movement in 1900. And was not taught during the whole churchhistorie.
So where is scripture for proof that Christians need a second baptising with the Holy Spirit and the signs of this is speaking in tongues for to be equipped to serve the Lord?
If the christians receive the gifts when they become christians, then they dont need a second baptising with the Holy Spirit.
The question of the OP has to do with the question about the second baptising with the Holy Spirit, because the doctrine that the charismatic gifts have not ceased began with the pentecostal movement. (I suppose that with charismatic gifts is meant:speaking in tongues, healing and prophecie)



 
jeff_peacemkr said:
remember. don't seek the gifts. except prophecy.

seek Yahweh HIMSELF. seek Yahweh's Face.

other's , seeking something else, went astray.
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God tells us to
Covet the gifts, 1 Cor 12: 31.
Desire them, 1 Cor 14: 1.
Be zealous for them, 1 Cor 14: 12.
 
Kaycie said:
1 Corinthians 13:8-10 Where there are prophesies they will cease, where there are tongues they will be stilled, where there is knowledge it will pass away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when completion comes the imperfect disappears.

When something is incomplete it is not perfect. The bible was incomplete, so there were prophets to help guide God's people until they had the full bible. It is now complete, we have Genesis through Revelation, and now that we have perfection, the old ways disappear.

1 Corinthians 13:13 says faith, hope, and love remain. If something remains that means that something else was taken away. So what was taken away? Miracles. Miracles had a purpose and now that purpose Has been fulfilled. Miracles were to identify the prophets, Christ, and the apostles.

We still have prayer, and the bible says the prayer of a righteous man does much good, and it does, I've seen it. But I know I will not see someone walking on water, instantly healing the deaf, blind, lame, and lepers, or parting water.
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It doesn't say the gifts will cease this side of eternity, It tells us when the will cease, When we see God face to face, when we are know like God knows us. When the perfect one [Jesus] brings the perfect Kingdom.

One of those things you said has ceased, Is Knowledge, And if knowledge has ceased, we might as well close our Churches, close our Bibles and stop preaching/teaching as no one will have the knowledge to understand the Bible.
But Daniel said knowledge will increase in the last days, NOT end.

What God is saying in 1 Cor 13, Is, Tongues and prophecies will stop, [In the sense that one cannot go on giving prophecies all the time, or speak in tongues all the time], whereas love is a continuous fruit in the believer.
It's the same Greek meaning as when Bible said "when Jesus ended His Teaching", But that didn't mean He never taught again.
And, "When Jesus ended praying", it didn't mean He never prayed again, Because He did teach and pray afterwards. So those who speak in tongues will have to stop, to speak in their native language.
Paul goes on to say, We Know in part and we prophecy in part, [But not all day], V9.
Then Paul tells us when they end, When Jesus comes back and we won't need the gifts anymore.
 
God4me said:
Then Paul tells us when they end, When Jesus comes back and we won't need the gifts anymore.
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Exactly. They will cease when they are no longer needed.

When people are no longer sick, healing will cease.

When we no longer see thru the glass darkly, words of knowledge and wisdom will cease.

When our pure singular spiritual language is restored, tongues will cease.


The only gifts that will remain - faith, hope, and love - are the ones that transcend into the spiritual world to come.

WHEN it comes.

Which is not now.
 
And again, I object to the use of the phrase "charismatic gifts". The gifts are of the Holy Spirit, and have nothing to do with the charismatic or pentecostal movements.
 
RickyZ said:
And again, I object to the use of the phrase "charismatic gifts". The gifts are of the Holy Spirit, and have nothing to do with the charismatic or pentecostal movements.
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The Holy Spirit was given on the day of Pentecost and there fore we are called Pentecostal.
 
Pentecost is actually an old Jewish festival. The gifts were first given on the day of this festival, but other than timing they really have nothing to do with the festival. I think it's use in relation to the gifts is wrong. We don't celebrate pentecost, we celebrate the gifts - which are given to us not just on a certain day but each and every day.
 
RickyZ said:
Pentecost is actually an old Jewish festival. The gifts were first given on the day of this festival, but other than timing they really have nothing to do with the festival. I think it's use in relation to the gifts is wrong. We don't celebrate pentecost, we celebrate the gifts - which are given to us not just on a certain day but each and every day.
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Yes they are but the types and shadows were given in the OT and that the word may be fulfilled the Holy Spirit was given on the day of Pentecost, It is true that one can be baptized in the Holy Spirit on any given day. But we are called Pentecostals because of the initial outpouring of His Spirit on the feast day of Pentecost.
 
We can believe in the charismata or the gifts of the Holy Spirit and their operation today. This doesn't make someone a Pentecostal. Just like believing and obeying the ordinance of water baptism does not make someone a Baptist. Do we truly celebrate the gifts? Or do we give glory and honor to God whose Holy Spirit gives us gifts as He pleases, then as instructed we utilize these gifts to edify the Body of Christ?

Cessationists will have people believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ended, but there are just too many examples of the utilization of the gifts of the Holy Spirit for anyone to say that they have ended. Granted some people may follow a different spirit with lying signs and wonders, but the evidence for the operation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit today is overwhelming.
 
Society has labeled us Pentecostals and used to call us Holy Rollers, we are just Christians that believe and trust in the full word of God, nothing more.
 
wolfwint said:
Well, according 1. corinthians 12, 4 ff

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of workings, but it is the same God who works all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man for profit.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another various kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But in all these works that one and same Spirit, dividing to every man individually as he will.
12 For as the body is one, and has many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

We are all received one baptising with the Holy Spirit.
So when we get the gift of the Holy Spirit? So far I know from my own expierience then when we become a children of God.
So when the manifestation of the Holy Spirit is given? According the context then when we receive the Holy Spirit.
There is no scripture which proof that christians which are already baptised with the Holy Spirit need a second baptising with the Holy Spirit for to get the equipped for the ministrie like the sign gifts of healing, speaking in tongues, ore to prophecy.
This doctrine occured first with the pentecostal movement in 1900. And was not taught during the whole churchhistorie.
So where is scripture for proof that Christians need a second baptising with the Holy Spirit and the signs of this is speaking in tongues for to be equipped to serve the Lord?
If the christians receive the gifts when they become christians, then they dont need a second baptising with the Holy Spirit.
The question of the OP has to do with the question about the second baptising with the Holy Spirit, because the doctrine that the charismatic gifts have not ceased began with the pentecostal movement. (I suppose that with charismatic gifts is meant:speaking in tongues, healing and prophecie)
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People do err by not knowing the scriptures. When you first believe you do not automatically receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit with Fire. You must be born again of the Water AND of the Spirit.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]6[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [/FONT]7[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.[/FONT]

People take for granted that once they choose to follow Christ they are automatically redeemed by He's blood. The Holy Spirit IS the gift of God which he gives to those who Obey him(Acts 5:32). Many are called, but few are chosen(Matt 22:14).

Acts 5:32 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

These signs are for all believers (Mark 16:17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.[/FONT]

[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There are also more administrations of the Spirit given where it is necessary, but every born again believer has the gift of speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance, casting out of demons, and the power available for healing to take place.

If you have not received the fire baptism of the Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance upon receiving it then you are not born again and need to follow what Jesus Christ has said and believe it until you receive it.

What specifically to do ? Repent! and be baptized and walk in the newness of life. Keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ(Acts 2:37-39), (Rev 12:17).

Acts 2:37 [/FONT]Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

The promise is to you and to all that are afar off !
 
I am truely blessed to see all the posts that agree with scriptures that the Holy Ghost is still here and functioning today.
Rev.19:10 .....for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Now I have been baptised in the Holy Ghost. I am no one special.
And any believer can recieve the gift of holy spirit.
 
Bigbruce said:
I am truely blessed to see all the posts that agree with scriptures that the Holy Ghost is still here and functioning today.
Rev.19:10 .....for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Now I have been baptised in the Holy Ghost. I am no one special.
And any believer can recieve the gift of holy spirit.
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Then show me in the bible where a believer who has received already the Holy Spirit again is baptised with the Holy Spirit?
 
Bigbruce said:
I am truely blessed to see all the posts that agree with scriptures that the Holy Ghost is still here and functioning today.
Rev.19:10 .....for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Now I have been baptised in the Holy Ghost. I am no one special.
And any believer can recieve the gift of holy spirit.
Click to expand...

Then show me in the bible where a believer who has received already the Holy Spirit again is baptised with the Holy Spirit?
 
RickyZ said:
And again, I object to the use of the phrase "charismatic gifts". The gifts are of the Holy Spirit, and have nothing to do with the charismatic or pentecostal movements.
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I object to the use of the phrase "charismatic gifts" The "charismatic gifts" are called "charisma(s)" something like 12 times in the N.T.

If you want to be more literally correct about what to call them, to call them "charisma(s)" would be closer to what the early church Greek speakers would have called them.

Do not neglect your gift[charisma], which was given you through prophecy when the body of elders laid their hands on you. -1 Tim 4:14

Do all have gifts[charismas] of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? -1 Cor 12:30

Now there are diversities of gifts[charismas], but the same Spirit. -1 Cor 12:4

The gifts are of the Holy Spirit, and have nothing to do with the charismatic or pentecostal movements. The charismatic and pentecostal movement are generally more accepting of the charisma(s) than other denominations.


Perhaps we should object to the English "Holy Spirit" since the Greek is actually "Pneuma Hagios".
 
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