Read my post 410, 411 and 412. Here is the example set forth of faith being put into motion. Jesus Christ the same yesterday today and forever!
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Read my post 410, 411 and 412. Here is the example set forth of faith being put into motion. Jesus Christ the same yesterday today and forever!
Ps 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
You are clearly not well versed on this matter. Supernatural knowledge like the apostles possessed has ended. These were relatively uneducated men who were able to handle the word of God better than the lawyers and Pharisees. You keep applying modern English to these Greek terms.
Paul wrote under Holy Spirit inspiration will complete assurance that what he wrote was what God was going fulfill.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
R
RobbyEarl
Guest
Paul was a highly a educated man, Taught by the greatest master of the law of that day Gamaliel. The bible is clear what will happen in the last days but not what will happen to you and through you. I have seen and witness to too many miracles to say that God has ceased the gifts nor miracles. I would even say thayt more miracles are about to happen as we are in the last days. The word is right "having a form of Godliness but denying the power the of"
notuptome:
Have you ever read 1 Corinthians 14? Why would the Apostle Paul waste around 3 pages in his letter to the Corinthians about proper operation of spiritual gifts to the church if it was only for the Apostles? In fact why waste so many pages of his letters?
It is documented in history that church leaders operated in miracles, signs, and wonders for multiple centuries after the apostles were dead. Furthermore, during the Council of Laodicea in AD 363, when the books of the New Testament were officially canonized and the New Testament was finally published as the official doctrine of the church, the church leaders who voted on which books made it into the New Testament clearly show in their own writings that miracles were still considered common-place in many parts of the church (centuries after the apostles). So, there was no New Testament until long after the Apostles were gone. After, the New Testament was canonized, largely on the order of Emperor Constantine to maintain order in the Roman Empire; documented miracles continued to happen. In fact with an in depth study of Christian history, you would discover that miracles which brought many believers to Jesus continued to happen for centuries after the new testament was canonized; some of these even mentioned by secular Roman historians. The truth is, the early church fathers who canonized scripture included passages that affirmed the continuation of miracles, because it was still relevant to the the church after the apostles and in a time where the New Testament became common-place in the teaching in the church.
You can't tell me that the numerous miracles centuries after the apostles which were documented in history as resulting in thousands surrendering their lives to Jesus, was the work of the devil. Why would the devil cause people to repent and surrender their lives to Jesus? Even if you never see a miracle in modern times, if you simply study history, you cannot conclude the miracles ceased after the Apostles. It is simply a fallacious conclusion. There are so many documented that even many historians have to concede that something happened, perhaps they "hallucinated." When modern secular historians have to make up an excuse for the numerous documented miracles, then it is basically impossible that every separate account from completely difference sources is false.
I used to believe as you do, that the miracles ceased. But after seeing enough of them to fluster me, I did my research and found it quite literally unbiblical and irresponsible with the handling of scripture to teach that miracles have ceased. I encourage you to consider doing your own research unbiased research, considering all evidence, whether you agree with it or not.
Blessings,
Matthew
Have you ever read 1 Corinthians 14? Why would the Apostle Paul waste around 3 pages in his letter to the Corinthians about proper operation of spiritual gifts to the church if it was only for the Apostles? In fact why waste so many pages of his letters?
It is documented in history that church leaders operated in miracles, signs, and wonders for multiple centuries after the apostles were dead. Furthermore, during the Council of Laodicea in AD 363, when the books of the New Testament were officially canonized and the New Testament was finally published as the official doctrine of the church, the church leaders who voted on which books made it into the New Testament clearly show in their own writings that miracles were still considered common-place in many parts of the church (centuries after the apostles). So, there was no New Testament until long after the Apostles were gone. After, the New Testament was canonized, largely on the order of Emperor Constantine to maintain order in the Roman Empire; documented miracles continued to happen. In fact with an in depth study of Christian history, you would discover that miracles which brought many believers to Jesus continued to happen for centuries after the new testament was canonized; some of these even mentioned by secular Roman historians. The truth is, the early church fathers who canonized scripture included passages that affirmed the continuation of miracles, because it was still relevant to the the church after the apostles and in a time where the New Testament became common-place in the teaching in the church.
You can't tell me that the numerous miracles centuries after the apostles which were documented in history as resulting in thousands surrendering their lives to Jesus, was the work of the devil. Why would the devil cause people to repent and surrender their lives to Jesus? Even if you never see a miracle in modern times, if you simply study history, you cannot conclude the miracles ceased after the Apostles. It is simply a fallacious conclusion. There are so many documented that even many historians have to concede that something happened, perhaps they "hallucinated." When modern secular historians have to make up an excuse for the numerous documented miracles, then it is basically impossible that every separate account from completely difference sources is false.
I used to believe as you do, that the miracles ceased. But after seeing enough of them to fluster me, I did my research and found it quite literally unbiblical and irresponsible with the handling of scripture to teach that miracles have ceased. I encourage you to consider doing your own research unbiased research, considering all evidence, whether you agree with it or not.
Blessings,
Matthew
Nowhere does the Bible says tongues prophecy or knowledge will end this side of eternity.
The Hebrew meaning for "Perfect", In Ps 19: 7, Is, "Plain, Upright and moral".
And the Greek meaning for, "Perfect", in 1 Cor 13: 10, Is, "Complete, Full age".
Clearly you take scriptures out of context.
And God hasn't completed His purpose for the Church yet, If He had, we would be in heaven now.
And the Full age hasn't come yet, as people are still getting saved, and God's work is still going on, If it wasn't you wouldn't be going to Church this week, and you wouldn't need to tell people about Jesus.
Paul does say tongues will end, But he didn't say the HAVE ENDED, Does he??, then he tells us when the will end, and it's not this side of eternity. I take it, you aren't baptised in the Holy Ghost with the Biblical evidence of speaking in tongues??.
some points i want add to my posts
1. You can only come to the second baptising with the Holy Spirit if you create an own theologie about that.
2. You are right it is more important what the bible says then people. But it has to be proofed. The doctrine from 2nd baptising with the Holy Spirit is man made. If it would be from God, we would find plenty records in church history teachings. But we do not. And of course Churchfathers and Reformators are people like you and me. But they worked out the word of god and createt the meanings which led to different churches and denominations. And I am shure non of them is 100% rigth.
But non of them taugth the Baptising with the Holy Spirit has to be completet in a second baptising for to get the powers to fulfill the task of a christian. Nowhere the bible is teaching that every beliver can speak in tongues.
This teaching came up in 1900 AD!! around 1800 years after John the last apostel died.
What between? You simply ignore this fact! And you stamp all believers before 1900 AD and all non pentecostal/charismatic believers to incomplete believers, because they/we dont had/have the baptising with the Holy Spirit, according the doctrine which began with the Pentecostal movement from Azusa street. Only some years later this movement has splittet and today we find various teachings. So what is then true?
In 60ties and 80ties charismatic movements came along with much more different teachings and practicing which reminds to spiritism. What then is true?
I would believe in the 2nd baptising of the Holy Spirit, if it would be clear in the scripture. But you have to create a doctrine with mankind thoughts to combind verses togehter out of the context and meanings.
I claim to have the Holy Spirit and he was given to me in that moment i was born again! And he is saying me that this doctrine is wrong!
a third point
I believe that the same Holy Spirit is today in action as in the day of the apostles. And he healings and wonders are today existent, no question, but not bound to any specific persons but to the prayer of believers. And yes this occurs in the missionfield more than in the churches ore in our western world.
The advise we find in 1. Corinthians are for churchlife! In churchlife we all today have the word of god in our hands, so we dont need a prophet. We dont need a healer, because this should be the Job of the eldest according James 5;
So we see a different which we should not mix together.
And about the tongues, we find this "gift" in sects like Mormons and New apostolic church. And also in pagan groups. So where is the different.
In 1. Cor. 14,8, it says that speaking in tongues will cease. But it says not when. Thats right.
the following verses are speaking about prophecie and wisdom, but not about tongues.
Speaking in tongues was mentioned in the first centuries, but also used from the Monatanistmovement till the 6th century.
This movement was realy big and was foundet from a false Prophet.
So God is given healings and wonders today, too and they are 100% effectiv. (mostly in mission field).Today healers ore prophets in churches are not able to heal 100% of the people which come to them to be healed. Also the propheties which are given, some pentecostal leaders claim 40-60% are coming true. What is this for a weak witness for God?
The gifts which people got to established the church they got from God through the Holy spirit when they was born again, ore when the got a special task from God to do. But this is no 2.nd baptising with the Holy Spirit. This is however a false doctrine. I know the most will not agree with this. But maby you think and pray a little about it.
I Corinthians does not teach that three 'sign gifts' have ended or that they will end. 'That which is in part' will be done away. Paul said, "For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away."
A few verses later, Paul says, that then he shall know fully, even as he is fully known.
So it is not knowledge that passes away, but knowing in part that passes away. Paul does not say that prophecy will pass away either. So it may be that prophesying in part will be done away with.
The thing is, Paul writes of himself to describe the coming of the perfect. When the perfect comes, his speech, knowledge, and understanding when he wrote the epistle will be like a child's in comparison to after the perfect comes. When the perfect comes Paul's speech, knowledge, and understanding will change. This is something that will effect him personally.
Some people want to apply this to themselves and not to Paul. They interpret the passage in such a way to mean that the author's of the New Testament while they wrote the scriptures had a childish understanding, and that their own understanding is like an adults. Anyone ever hear of hubris?
Paul let's us know what he is talking about if we will look at the rest of the epistle,
I Corinthians 1:7
So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
Only the three sign gifts ceased. These were to the Jews and not to the Gentiles.
Paul was writing a letter of correction to the church at Corinth not a letter of praise. I can only imagine the letter he would write to todays church.
It has been the church of Rome that has kept the worship of miracles alive through the centuries. It is the church of Rome that records during their exorcisms that the demons speak in unknowable tongues.
God still heals and God still does wonderful things but they are done by God and not men. God heals the good and the evil alike. God allows the good and the evil to suffer alike save that the evil have no hope for eternity.
When you get over self and surrender to God you will begin to understand.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
That which we know we know through the word of God. Paul only had part of the word of God. The early church preached Christ from the OT scriptures because the NT was not perfect as in complete.
You still wiggle and you still deny. Christianity is all about Christ and nothing about men. Pentecostals and charismatics are all about self and what they demand God do for them. Just like the two malefactors crucified with Christ the one mocking Jesus and trying to manipulate Him the other only seeking His mercy. Well you know the outcome.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
P
PeacefulWarrior
Guest
Opinions without evidence are simply opinions.
I haven't seen you sufficiently support your opinion, Roger.
Can you point me to the details? (1 Cor 13:8)
Even some of the Old Testament prophecies prophesied to foreigners. The Bible never says that any of the I Corinthians 12 spiritual gifts were for the Jews and not the Gentiles. I Corinthians 12 says that the readers had been led about by dumb idols, so it is most likely that many or most of them were Gentiles from pagan backgrounds. That list of gifts includes word of knowledge, prophecy, and divers tongues. Acts tells of how a lame man was healed through Paul in a Gentile city, in front of a crowd of Gentile pagans who wanted to sacrifice to Paul and Barnabas. Acts 15 tells us that Paul and Barnabas told of the signs and wonders they did among the Gentiles.
I Corinthians 1 says that 'the Jews require a sign.' It does not say that signs are only for Jews. That is what Jews demanded. What they want and God's purposes for signs and gifts are two different things.
I Corinthians 13 does not say that knowledge and prophecy will cease. It says that that which is in part shall be done away. Partial knowledge will be replaced by full knowledge, because Paul writes that he will know fully even as he is fully known. That is what Paul will experience when the perfect comes, and I believe all those who are Christ's will experience it along with him.
I was taking a drink of water when I read this and I laughed so hard it came out my nose!
Clearly you aren't familiar with Roger!
P
PeacefulWarrior
Guest
Poor Roger.
I usually agree with the man.
But on this one--I'm having a hard time. Hoping he'll shed a bit more light on how he has arrived at his conclusion.
I heard him briefly mention that (some of us) are looking at English when the text was written in Greek--but I apparently don't have enough knowledge to figure out what this means.
So what you are saying is that you will not believe God unless you see signs and wonders? You will not trust Christ based on what is written in the word of God unless you see signs and wonders?
1 Cor 14:21 ¶ In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
To whom and about whom is God speaking in this passage?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
E
ember
Guest
you sound quite accusatory here
the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for BELIEVERS, so why would someone state they don't believe God unless they SEE things? sounds like more of your twisting what folks say in order to mock and disagree...I thought you said you know the Bible...so then, you should acknowledge what the gifts are for...they are not for personal use...you can only personally reject them
the gifts of the Holy Spirit are given for the Body...not for self glorification...if people use them in the wrong way or go into the flesh and state it's God...well, that is not proof of anything but sin...and Paul addressed that with the Corinthians
you trust in your interpretation, which limits God and puts YOU in the driver seat, so while you may believe you are doing a service, you are actually anti the work of the Holy Spirit in your own life and mocking His work in the lives of others
that's a very serious thing Roger
frankly, as much as some people deny there is a God, so you are free to deny the Holy Spirit any room in your life...so why don't you just do that...you cannot stop the power of God in the lives of others...you can, however, deny God that part of your life and it seems that is your choice...sad for you
The only problem here is that when we attempt to force scripture to say what it has said is not to be then we contradict scripture and we can be assured that is not Gods will nor does it glorify Christ.
I trust the word of God which the Holy Spirit opens to my heart as Jesus promised He would do. If we seek greater faith we must assimilate more of Gods word.
I agree that this is serious because Paul devoted much of his letter to Corinth to address the errors rampant in the church.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
E
ember
Guest
well you would know more about that than I do since you FORCE scripture to say that the perfect is come in order to support you personal interpretation that tongues have ceased
I'm so happy for you that your world is perfect....
P
PeacefulWarrior
Guest
Once again, how did you get from "will cease" to "have ceased"? (1 Cor 13:8)
Matthew Henry is usually my GO-TO commentary, and he concludes that "perfection" is achieved in Heaven--not on Earth.
Here's an exerpt from his commentary on the verse(s):
"I. From its longer continuance and duration: Charity never faileth. It is a permanent and perpetual grace, lasting as eternity; whereas the extraordinary gifts on which the Corinthians valued themselves were of short continuance. They were only to edify the church on earth, and that but for a time, not during its whole continuance in this world; but in heaven would be all superseded, which yet is the very seat and element of love. Prophecy must fail, that is, either the prediction of things to come (which is its most common sense) or the interpretation of scripture by immediate inspiration. Tongues will cease, that is, the miraculous power of speaking languages without learning them. There will be but one language in heaven. There is no confusion of tongues in the region of perfect tranquility. And knowledge will vanish away. Not that, in the perfect state above, holy and happy souls shall be unknowing, ignorant: it is a very poor happiness that can consist with utter ignorance. The apostle is plainly speaking of miraculous gifts, and therefore of knowledge to be had out of the common way (see ch. 14:6), a knowledge of mysteries supernaturally communicated. Such knowledge was to vanish away. Some indeed understand it of common knowledge acquired by instruction, taught and learnt. This way of knowing is to vanish away, though the knowledge itself, once acquired, will not be lost. But it is plain that the apostle is here setting the grace of charity in opposition to supernatural gifts. And it is more valuable, because more durable; it shall last, when they shall be no more; it shall enter into heaven, where they will have no place, because they will be of no use, though, in a sense, even our common knowledge may be said to cease in heaven, by reason of the improvement that will then be made in it. The light of a candle is perfectly obscured by the sun shining in its strength." (Source: https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/mhc/1Cr/1Cr_013.cfm?a=1075008)
Last edited:
E
ember
Guest
yeah people
how deep do you want to go?
do you want to be the flat skipping stone across the waters
or do you want to be the coral reef with myriads of color and life
God gives us that choice every day
me? I wanna dive
isn't it nice of God to let us choose?
choose life
how deep do you want to go?
do you want to be the flat skipping stone across the waters
or do you want to be the coral reef with myriads of color and life
God gives us that choice every day
me? I wanna dive
isn't it nice of God to let us choose?
choose life