Have the New Testament Charismatic gifts ceased?

[miknik5]

The foolish were depicted as "his"
Virgin equals pure,set apart,undefiled.

They Completely INDISTINGUISHABLE from the wise,except one thing. The EXTRA container of oil.

They had lamps and SOME oil,just not enough.

This is the picture Jesus points to when he tells us "pray that you may be COUNTED WORTHY to escape the things about to come on the earth and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF GOD"

The 5 foolish were not worthy.saved,but not worthy.

How does a virgin remain set apart and undefiled?
By the amount of oil they have?
Because doesn't that then imply that we can, by our own doings build up our stature (our "Oil") in CHRIST JESUS?

I am not sure I am in agreement to this and I am also not sure if I am understanding correctly.

 

[valiant]

Roger? why don't you just come right out and tell the good folks what you really think about those who pray in tongues?

I mean I know what you think and some other members know what you think...because we have had this conversation before

you know...the part where you state that it is your belief that those who pray in tongues do so by the power of a demon?

so, now that's finally out in the open

This was Paul's idea,

1Co 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking in the Spirit of God saith, Jesus is anathema; and no man can say, Jesus is Lord, but in the Holy Spirit.

Thus he saw some prophecy and tongues as demonic and some as genuine,

 

[Grace777x70]

This was Paul's idea,

1Co 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking in the Spirit of God saith, Jesus is anathema; and no man can say, Jesus is Lord, but in the Holy Spirit.

Thus he saw some prophecy and tongues as demonic and some as genuine,

I don't know how one could come that conclusion from the text. Paul is just simply telling the people that no one is speaking bad things about the Lord when they were speaking in tongues because their mind is not understanding what they are saying. They are words of comfort and to renew their minds to what is happening while they are speaking in tongues to their Father.

I have no doubt that there are demonic inspired tongues in some cults or devil worship but I have never seen a Christian do it.

 

[valiant]

Except for the parts of the word that encourage believers to covet to prophesy and to earnestly desire spiritual gifts right? And those parts of the word that command us to let one speak in tongues and to let one interpret and to let the prophets speak, right? Oh yeah, and the part of the word that says not to despise prophesyings, right?

why do you assume that prophesy must be the way you do it? Martin Luther (and many others) were 'prophets'.

'Religious spirit'. Do you even know what that means? Do you even know what you are saying? Btw, why are you borrowing Charismatic terminology?

Presumably because he is talking with Charismatics?

The idea of signs confirming the word of God as it is preached is a Biblical concept. The Bible doesn't teach that miracles that confirm the word are somehow contrary to the word. That is a made-up cessationist perspective that is contrary to scripture.

When scripture speaks of signs and wonders accompanying the word, the writers are not thinking of tongues and prophecy. It is referring to gifts we do not have. Pentecost was an exception,

 

[miknik5]

How does a virgin remain set apart and undefiled?
By the amount of oil they have?
Because doesn't that then imply that we can, by our own doings build up our stature (our "Oil") in CHRIST JESUS?

I am not sure I am in agreement to this and I am also not sure if I am understanding correctly.

Who are the "wise", sir?
Those who have already calculated that their own workings will count them as worthy?

I am sorry, but I believe that HE places everyone in HIS BODY as HE chooses, and gives gifts for the purpose of building up...ONE BODY...this is why some are teachers...not because they better equipped as "wiser" than the "foolish" but because HE apportions the gifts as HE chooses for HIS PURPOSE...and that was that none would fall, but all would be strengthen and edified.

And in fact, those who have been given gifts according to HIS PURPOSE should be using those gifts to help the babies...

I am drawn to the parable of the workers in the vineyard...and I believe that it is the babies in CHRIST< those who come in at the last hour, who have MORE OIL in their lamp than those who have toiled and weathered the "heat of the day"

I am not sure I am in agreement to the "wise" who prepared their oil...
In fact, I don't think there is anything that we can do to prepare our oil but to trust by faith in HIM that HE, our BRIDEGROOM, will come and gather HIS BRIDE and present HER as undefiled, body, soul and spirit...

 

[miknik5]

What I am saying is the man who spoke in tongues more than anyone wrote some anointed letters that became the word of God.

Now,what that also says is that he was speaking in tongues under the anointing.

Add that up.

The one UNDER THE ANOINTING did more than Joe six pack nominal mental believers

As GOD purposes and for HIS PURPOSE
Paul was also forespoken of as being HIS chosen vessel...for the very purpose of what?
To edify himself (Paul) or to bring more people to THE SAVIOR?

The latter and not the former.
And Paul understood this...

 

[valiant]

I don't know how one could come that conclusion from the text. Paul is just simply telling the people that no one is speaking bad things about the Lord when they were speaking in tongues because their mind is not understanding what they are saying. They are words of comfort and to renew their minds to what is happening while they are speaking in tongues to their Father.

I have no doubt that there are demonic inspired tongues in some cults or devil worship but I have never seen a Christian do it.

My friend, a respected Pentecostal missionary (William Burton), declared that he had often heard people speaking in tongues who claimed to be Christians, and who were in a Christian assembly, who had clearly been inspired of the devil by the words they used. So your experience must be limited, (he was an interpreter)

the text clearly has in mind people claiming to speak in the Spirit.

a man not speaking in the Spirit could easily say Jesus is Lord,

 

[miknik5]

My friend, a respected Pentecostal missionary (William Burton), declared that he had often heard people speaking in tongues who claimed to be Christians, and who were in a Christian assembly, who had clearly been inspired of the devil by the words they used. So your experience must be limited,

the text clearly has in mind people claiming to speak in the Spirit.

We can make a right judgment can't we by what is said?
I mean that is why HE gave us of HIS LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT...

If you hear someone saying something that is against the TRUTH of GOD, you'll know.

Right?
It's just that there are many who have not heard the VOICE of THE SON of GOD/SON of MAN now who therefore can't make the right judgment and will and could be misled by "another voice/spirit"

HE said, MY SHEEP know MY VOICE and they listen to ME.
We know HIS VOICE/SPIRIT now and we can by HIS SPIRIT discern the spirits of TRUTH from the spirits of lies which are in the world...

 

[God4me]

You do realize that Paul writing in the book of Corinthians was correcting them not praising them?

You certainly use different meanings for the words you speak. Scripture must be consistent and not be taken differently in one place to the contradiction in another. To use the word prophecy in your context opens us to new previously unrecorded revelation from God. That of course would contradict what is written in Revelation.

Your bible tells you that tongues are for unsaved Jews and not for Gentiles. Every evidence of tongues in the book of Acts had unsaved Jews in attendance.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I have given scriptures, But I can't make anyone believe the Bible.
I don't give a different meaning to the Bible. My responsibility is to give the Biblical truths. and that's all God expects of me.

 

[Grace777x70]

My friend, a respected Pentecostal missionary (William Burton), declared that he had often heard people speaking in tongues who claimed to be Christians, and who were in a Christian assembly, who had clearly been inspired of the devil by the words they used. So your experience must be limited,

the text clearly has in mind people claiming to speak in the Spirit.

Well.....those who claim to be a Christian and actually are a Christian are two different creatures. To say that "the text clearly has in mind people claiming to speak in the Spirit"...is reading into the text an awful lot IMO. But it's something we can just agree to disagree on too...

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by popeye The foolish were depicted as "his"
Virgin equals pure,set apart,undefiled.

They Completely INDISTINGUISHABLE from the wise,except one thing. The EXTRA container of oil.

They had lamps and SOME oil,just not enough.

This is the picture Jesus points to when he tells us "pray that you may be COUNTED WORTHY to escape the things about to come on the earth and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF GOD"

The 5 foolish were not worthy.saved,but not worthy

.

The foolish virgins were UNKNOWN to the Lord('I do not know you'). That distinguished them clearly, They were therefore UNSAVED.

 

[ember]

I don't know how one could come that conclusion from the text. Paul is just simply telling the people that no one is speaking bad things about the Lord when they were speaking in tongues because their mind is not understanding what they are saying. They are words of comfort and to renew their minds to what is happening while they are speaking in tongues to their Father.

I have no doubt that there are demonic inspired tongues in some cults or devil worship but I have never seen a Christian do it.

yes...there are demonic tongues and fake tongues...if you are a child of the devil, he can give you demonic tongues ...this has been documented...fake tongues are very obvious if you have the real thing

I think some folks need to be reminded of what Jesus said here:


7“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

8For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

9“Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?

11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

However, what we appear to have here, are folks slamming doors in people's faces and accusing GOD ALMIGHTY...the KING OF THE UNIVERSE (I gotta hope they just forgot who they were talking about for a moment)
of Handing out not just stones....BUT DEMONS to people who ask for His Spirit

That should give pause, but there is a momentum here that would take some real restraint and self - control

 

[valiant]

Well.....those who claim to be a Christian and actually are a Christian are two different creatures. To say that "the text clearly has in mind people claiming to speak in the Spirit"...is reading into the text an awful lot IMO. But it's something we can just agree to disagree on too...

There was no reason to doubt that they were Christians. The devil can use worldly Christians for his purpose and give a message through them. Paul was guarding against that,.

As to the text are you suggesting that a man cannot say 'Jesus is Lord' unless he has the Holy Spirit in him? I know many who do. But they could not do it 'speaking in the Spirit' with the Spirit controlling their words. Think about it

 

[valiant]

yes...there are demonic tongues and fake tongues...if you are a child of the devil, he can give you demonic tongues ...this has been documented...fake tongues are very obvious if you have the real thing

The devil can also speak through children of God if they are not walking in the Spirit,

I think some folks need to be reminded of what Jesus said here:


7“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

8For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

9“Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?

11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

There is NO REASON to think that Jesus was referring to gifts of the Spirit here.

However, what we appear to have here, are folks slamming doors in people's faces and accusing GOD ALMIGHTY...the KING OF THE UNIVERSE (I gotta hope they just forgot who they were talking about for a moment)
of Handing out not just stones....BUT DEMONS to people who ask for His Spirit

If you think that satan can never influence a carnal believer in this way you are very foolish, It is not God sending the demon. They open themselves to it by trying to use the gifts carnally.

That should give pause, but there is a momentum here that would take some real restraint and self - control

Why? Because you do not understand the devil's ways.

 

[ember]

The devil can also speak through children of God if they are not walking in the Spirit,



There is NO REASON to think that Jesus was referring to gifts of the Spirit here.



If you think that satan can never influence a carnal believer in this way you are very foolish, It is not God sending the demon. They open themselves to it by trying to use the gifts carnally.




Why? Because you do not understand the devil's ways.

still in the same frame of mind as yesterday I see...

LOL!...the devil's ways...that is so ironic that I know you miss it

you seem to imply that God gives people a devil when they ask for His Spirit

remember now, we are not discussing my words...but rather Jesus' words

I can't help what you believe, but I believe it is better not to discuss the things of God with someone who thinks that way

 

[valiant]

still in the same frame of mind as yesterday I see...

running away again? This is a DiSCUSSION forum,

LOL!...the devil's ways...that is so ironic that I know you miss it

maybe, maybe not.

you seem to imply that God gives people a devil when they ask for His Spirit

I specifically said that God did NOT send the demon. But if Christians open themselves to demon influence they must expect it.
God does not give demons. But demons await any opportunity to attack God.

People who think they are seeking God often open themselves to demons to influence them. The NT is full of it.

remember now, we are not discussing my words...but rather Jesus' words

You have distorted them. He did not speak on the subject,

I can't help what you believe, but I believe it is better not to discuss the things of God with someone who thinks that way

if you read more carefully you would not be misled. Besides you should always be ready to defend the truth, but it is clear that you have no real arguments to put up.

 

[ember]

would you like my phone number? we can really get to the point then

seriously, we have nothing to talk about

your dissatisfaction is not mine and I can't help you...although I do feel for you...

 

[valiant]

would you like my phone number? we can really get to the point then

seriously, we have nothing to talk about

you mean you are stuck in your beliefs and never listen to anyone else? I know that. I am really speaking to the silent listener, not you.

your dissatisfaction is not mine and I can't help you...although I do feel for you...

??????? but i'm pleased you admit that regular healing is not for today,

 

[valiant]

We can make a right judgment can't we by what is said?
I mean that is why HE gave us of HIS LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT...

If you hear someone saying something that is against the TRUTH of GOD, you'll know.

Right?
It's just that there are many who have not heard the VOICE of THE SON of GOD/SON of MAN now who therefore can't make the right judgment and will and could be misled by "another voice/spirit"

HE said, MY SHEEP know MY VOICE and they listen to ME.
We know HIS VOICE/SPIRIT now and we can by HIS SPIRIT discern the spirits of TRUTH from the spirits of lies which are in the world...

Off the subject, READ what Paul SAID.

 

[ember]

Off the subject, READ what Paul SAID.

this thread is an old thread...I doubt the op is going to call that one and the only subject you seem to actually want to discuss is your own unbelief

you mean you are stuck in your beliefs and never listen to anyone else? I know that. I am really speaking to the silent listener, not you.

I know what I mean and others here do as well...your efforts at translating are a failure at best and an attempt to make it seem I am deaf and stupid at worst

you do yourself no service by the way you respond

thankfully, you are not in charge of how we respond to God

your aptitude for argument by twisting what others say is the reason I have no obligation to answer you. You seem to have decided for me what I mean and what I say...that, is not a conversation...that, is a desire to run over another and attempt to have the upper hand and that's a lack of respect for others and just plain rude

please do not expect any more from me in response to your little diatribes