He that turns his ear from hearing the law...

[JGIG]

Completely and utterly wrong....

The reason for the Law was to show man his need for the Savior...The Law showed man his SIN and his need for a Savior. The power of SIN is the Law

Gal 3.24: Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
Romans 3.20: because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

1 Cor 15.56: The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;

It's crucial to go back to the Law and read God's words at the time to see why He gave it. It helps bring Paul's words into a better clarity.

But you're here to teach us, yes?

So teach.

7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm. (from 1 Tim. 1)​

-JGIG

 

[FreeNChrist]

It's crucial to go back to the Law and read God's words at the time to see why He gave it. It helps bring Paul's words into a better clarity.

Ummmm, ya got that backwards. It's Paul that brings the Law into clarity.

 

[FreeNChrist]

What did God tell Israel about why He gave them the Law?

Do you think God was surprised at their failure to keep it?

 

[FreeNChrist]

My salvation is in Christ alone. No amount of obedience or disobedience affects that, so I can't "keep it" myself. That's why there's grace and mercy.

Right. Because Gods grace is just a get out of jail free card for you to play when you fail at your law-keeping. Except it isn't.

 

[JGIG]

What did God tell Israel about why He gave them the Law?

Why are you asking us?

You're one of the ones coming here to teach Law, so teach it!

21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? (from Gal. 4)​

7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm. (from 1 Tim. 1)​

Dear reader, do understand that the primary method of Torah folk, Law-keepers, Hebrew Roots folk, is to ask flawed questions. They do so to slowly guide you further and further away from the simplicity of the Good News of the Work of Christ - the Gospel - for salvation AND for your walk - in effort to steer you back to the Law for your walk.

Yet we know from Scripture that the Law, in light of the Work of Christ, does not produce in us godly living, but instead

• In Christ, believers are DEAD to the Law (Rom. 7:4-6)
• In Christ, believers are under Grace, not Law (Rom. 6:14, 15)
• Grace, not Law, teaches the believer how to say no to ungodliness (Tit. 2:11)
• The righteousness of God has been made manifest APART from the Law (Rom. 3:21-31)
• The power of sin is the Law (1 Cor. 15:56)
• That APART from the Law, sin is DEAD (Rom. 7:8)

Those who seek to preach Law-keeping cannot answer the above Scriptures (which are so clear), but to say that we must be confused .

Evidently, Paul saw and dealt with this too:

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. (from Gal. 1)​

So keep your eyes fixed on Christ, the author and perfecter of faith!

12 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. (from Heb. 12)​

-JGIG

 

[KohenMatt]

So by your responses, I take it you're not going to answer the question.

You're one of the ones teaching the Law here, so teach!

Or not.

Your choice.

7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm. (from 1 Tim. 1)​

-JGIG

OK, quick answers for you, then:

1) The reason God told Israel to keep the Law was for them to continue in the Covenant He made with Abraham. If they obeyed, He would fulfill the Covenant. If they disobeyed, they nullified the Covenant. If they repented of their disobedience, God forgave and the Covenant was fulfilled.

Exodus 19:5-6 "Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine;6 and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’"

There is no mention of the purpose "To point out their sin" or to "point to the need for a Savior" or "to show them they couldn't keep it perfectly." Any other purposes set forth by any man were misapplications of the original Law.


2) God didn't tell Israel to go to Jerusalem for the Feasts or to offer sacrifices. Jerusalem wasn't a part of Israel until a couple of hundred years after the Law. Nowhere in the giving of the Law did God tell Israel to go to Jerusalem. God did tell them to offer up sacrifices in the place "where He chose to place His name." (Deuteronomy 16)

 

[LaurenTM]

I believe the end-game is to 'catch' us in some error and to 'ensnare' us back under the Law:

Psalm 35:7
For without cause they hid their net for me; Without cause they dug a pit for my soul.

Psalm 119:85
The arrogant have dug pits for me, Men who are not in accord with Your law.

Psalm 119:110
The wicked have laid a snare for me, Yet I have not gone astray from Your precepts.

Psalm 140:5
The proud have hidden a trap for me, and cords; They have spread a net by the wayside; They have set snares for me. Selah.

Psalm 141:9
Keep me from the jaws of the trap which they have set for me, And from the snares of those who do iniquity.

Psalm 142:3
When my spirit was overwhelmed within me, You knew my path In the way where I walk They have hidden a trap for me.

Jeremiah 5:26
'For wicked men are found among My people, They watch like fowlers lying in wait; They set a trap, They catch men.

Jeremiah 18:22
May an outcry be heard from their houses, When You suddenly bring raiders upon them; For they have dug a pit to capture me And hidden snares for my feet.

​

When they say they keep the Law, and are asked about how they do it, they come back with more questions, not willing to answer the questions put to them. The attempt is to lead us to their way of thinking incrementally, without them coming out with plain, contextual Scripture to back up what they're saying.


-JGIG

well that is probably so...which is why we have the carousel of questions ...

perhaps the way of the increment is how they achieved the destination at the base camp at the foot of Mt Sinai

they are still looking to Moses to explain it all to them

 

[JGIG]

I know exactly how I'm saved, and it has nothing to do with the Law.

So when your post talked about the Law in context of salvation, I simply pointed out that I have never equated the Law with salvation.

2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? (from Gal. 3)

​

-JGIG

 

[FreeNChrist]

How would like me to be "factually correct" concerning what I believe? What does that look like to you?



The reason I started that thread (Post #1....

"I created a similar thread 2 years ago because at the time, there were a lot of references to the "Law" on this forum, but very few quotes of the specific Laws themselves. I think we're at a similar place with a bunch of new faces on the forum. In order to weed out a lot of the commentary from that time, I'm re-posting the Laws themselves and not "bumping up" the entire thread. I will keep my comments to a minimum.

These Laws are usually referred to as a whole unit and judged or analyzed as such. These laws are usually deemed to be burdensome and inapplicable to Christians today. However, when these commands are looked at individually and on their own merit, they can provide great insight and application for Christians today. While some of them are in fact not physically applicable for various reasons, I believe ALL of them are applicable physically and/or spiritually. This thread is primarily meant to simply list the commands themselves.

So for the sake of information and clarity, I'll be posting the actual commands and verses of all 6113 laws in groups of their relevant sections (not all at once.) I'm using the grouping and ordering as compiled by the Jewish scholar Maimonides, aka Rambam."

If the Law is still "applicable" for Christians, then so is the penalty for not meeting its demands. After all, laws without a penalty attached are merely suggestions. Or are you just saying there are 613 suggestions that are applicable for Christians?

 

[JGIG]

My salvation is in Christ alone. No amount of obedience or disobedience affects that, so I can't "keep it" myself. That's why there's grace and mercy.

Then why the Law, when Scripture tells us

• In Christ, believers are DEAD to the Law (Rom. 7:4-6)
• In Christ, believers are under Grace, not Law (Rom. 6:14, 15)
• Grace, not Law, teaches the believer how to say no to ungodliness (Tit. 2:11)
• The righteousness of God has been made manifest APART from the Law (Rom. 3:21-31)
• The power of sin is the Law (1 Cor. 15:56)
• That APART from the Law, sin is DEAD (Rom. 7:8)

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

It's crucial to go back to the Law and read God's words at the time to see why He gave it. It helps bring Paul's words into a better clarity.

Ummmm, ya got that backwards. It's Paul that brings the Law into clarity.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to FreeNChrist again.
​

You are exactly right, FreeNChrist:

2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. (from Eph. 3)


​

25 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. 27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

28 He is the one we proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom,so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ. 29 To this end I strenuously contend with all the energy Christ so powerfully works in me. (from Col. 1)
​

​-JGIG

 

[KohenMatt]

2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?​

Not works of the Law. But by belief

3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? (from Gal. 3)

No.

 

[LaurenTM]

how can one self identify as a Hebrew Roots kind of person and then disavow believing the law adds to grace?

split personality?

dunno

 

[KohenMatt]

If the Law is still "applicable" for Christians, then so is the penalty for not meeting its demands. After all, laws without a penalty attached are merely suggestions. Or are you just saying there are 613 suggestions that are applicable for Christians?

Is there a penalty for any sin, Old or New Testament? Yes. Was there a sacrifice that atoned for sin in the Law? Yes. And it's even better for sin now, indeed it's perfect and complete, through Jesus.

 

[LaurenTM]

Is there a penalty for any sin, Old or New Testament? Yes. Was there a sacrifice that atoned for sin in the Law? Yes. And it's even better for sin now, indeed it's perfect and complete, through Jesus.

your reasoning does not actually fit with scripture

first of all, there is only ONE penalty for ALL sin

that penalty is death

there are many different sacrifices for sins in the OT (for whichever sin was committed )

the sacrifices could never actually achieve forgiveness however as the blood of bulls and goats cannot atone for human sin

as the OT is clear on that, why don't you know that?

their is only ONE sacrifice that gives depredation and that is the sacrifice of Jesus

so, just to help you out here in your understanding, once again:

ALL sin results in death...separation from God...

NO animal sacrifice redeems mankind

ONE sacrifice redeems all mankind and is available by accepting Christ as YOUR substitute...something NO animal ever achieved

 

[KohenMatt]

how can one self identify as a Hebrew Roots kind of person and then disavow believing the law adds to grace?

split personality?

dunno

Because "Hebrew Roots" isn't a denomination where there is a list of accepted beliefs and doctrines. It varies from person to person and church to church. So there's a lot of discrepancies between people who would call themselves "Hebrew Roots" folk.

From this Hebrew Roots kind of guy, the Law adds nothing to and takes nothing away from grace. Grace is my sole source of salvation. The Law is one part of the Bible that shows me how to live in response to that grace.

Sadly, I know some Hebrew Roots-type people that believe the Law directly affects salvation.

 

[KohenMatt]

your reasoning does not actually fit with scripture

first of all, there is only ONE penalty for ALL sin

that penalty is death

their are many different sacrifices for sins in order to achieve atonement for whichever sin was committed

the sacrifices could never actually achieve forgiveness however as the blood of bulls and goats cannot atone for human sin

as the OT is clear on that, why don't you know that?

their is only ONE sacrifice that gives depredation and that is the sacrifice of Jesus

so, just to help you out here in your understanding, once again:

ALL sin results in death...separation from God...

NO animal sacrifice redeems mankind

ONE sacrifice redeems all mankind and is available by accepting Christ as YOUR substitute...something NO animal ever achieved

And I agree with everything you say here.

 

[LaurenTM]

Because "Hebrew Roots" isn't a denomination where there is a list of accepted beliefs and doctrines. It varies from person to person and church to church. So there's a lot of discrepancies between people who would call themselves "Hebrew Roots" folk.

From this Hebrew Roots kind of guy, the Law adds nothing to and takes nothing away from grace. Grace is my sole source of salvation. The Law is one part of the Bible that shows me how to live in response to that grace.

Sadly, I know some Hebrew Roots-type people that believe the Law directly affects salvation.

then you don't understand Hebrew Roots either

 

[eph610]

OK, quick answers for you, then:

1) The reason God told Israel to keep the Law was for them to continue in the Covenant He made with Abraham. If they obeyed, He would fulfill the Covenant. If they disobeyed, they nullified the Covenant. If they repented of their disobedience, God forgave and the Covenant was fulfilled.

Exodus 19:5-6 "Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine;6 and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’"

There is no mention of the purpose "To point out their sin" or to "point to the need for a Savior" or "to show them they couldn't keep it perfectly." Any other purposes set forth by any man were misapplications of the original Law.


2) God didn't tell Israel to go to Jerusalem for the Feasts or to offer sacrifices. Jerusalem wasn't a part of Israel until a couple of hundred years after the Law. Nowhere in the giving of the Law did God tell Israel to go to Jerusalem. God did tell them to offer up sacrifices in the place "where He chose to place His name." (Deuteronomy 16)

Abraham was not under the Mosaic Covenant...God made an unconditional covenant with Abraham called the Abrahamic Covenant and is categorized by the formula: I WILL which declares God's determination to fulfill what he has promised.....Abraham's covenant had zero to do with Mosaic Law. It had to do with 14 provisions that are to wordy to post here...The covenant was between God and Abraham with Abraham standing in for the Jewish nation and not the gentiles...it has yet to be fulfilled.

Exodus 19 is God speaking to Moses not Abraham....

The Mosaic covenant[the law] was a conditional covenant categorized by the formula of If MAN does, then GOD will.....

The Law did not come until 430 years after Abraham....Gal 3.17

I would expect the Hebrews roots movement to at least teach you there are 8 Bible covenants and not 2

 

[KohenMatt]

then you don't understand Hebrew Roots either

What makes you say that?