How do angels jibe with the Holy Spirit?

[GWH]

I have difficulty jibing the role of angels with the role of the Holy Spirit, so I would like to explore that question
starting from Hebrews 1:14, "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?"

Does this teaching not conflict with the ministry of the Holy Spirit described in the Gospel of John as our advocate (14:16-17),
the testifier about Jesus (15:26) and guide (16:12-15)?

 

[Gideon300]

I have difficulty jibing the role of angels with the role of the Holy Spirit, so I would like to explore that question
starting from Hebrews 1:14, "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?"

Does this teaching not conflict with the ministry of the Holy Spirit described in the Gospel of John as our advocate (14:16-17),
the testifier about Jesus (15:26) and guide (16:12-15)?

The Holy Spirit ministers to the spiritual need of God's people. Angels minister to the physical needs. They may also be messengers. Many can testify to help from beings who appear to be human, yet have greater powers than we have. Angels have been used to speak to God's people, such as Joseph and Mary with respect to the birth of Jesus.

An example. My late friend mentor checked himself out of hospital. He was recovered but very weak. We had a very small mobility scooter. The hospital refused to help as he had checked himself out. It was late at night and very few people were around.

We called a taxi for disabled people, but the driver would not take the scooter. My friend was to big for me to lift and too weak to get on the scooter. We seemed to be beaten. We prayed. A man (?) at least 6 ft tall and well built "just happened" to come along. He lifted my 120 kg friend up easily and put him on the scooter. We were amazed.

We turned around to thank the guy but he'd gone. I can't be 100% sure, but it sure seemed like an angel had come to help us. I've had other experiences of help that came out of nowhere. I know others can say the same.

 

[homwardbound]

I have difficulty jibing the role of angels with the role of the Holy Spirit, so I would like to explore that question
starting from Hebrews 1:14, "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?"

Does this teaching not conflict with the ministry of the Holy Spirit described in the Gospel of John as our advocate (14:16-17),
the testifier about Jesus (15:26) and guide (16:12-15)?

only a third of Angels fell, not all
God Father be the Holy Spirit, I see was Father in the walk of Jesus that Jesus said, unless he went home to Heaven, The Holy Spirit would not come
Therefore we are all left to get given new life from Father through risen Son. I say the risen for a reason. Father is not God of the dead, Father is Father of the living, Son is risen, resurrected for us to be given new life in love to all who believe Daddy, PaPa, Father, not a few as the first born flesh only knows how to do, love only those that love them back
Are we alll familiar with that? I think so, I know I am from past.
So. we all get guides that are in unison with Daddy, PaPa, Father you think?
I see this amazing mysterious grace given us all by Son for us all. Each having their own special gifts. Wow Thank you Daddy, PaPa, Father for risen Son to teach me new

I saw this once, Father and Son skipping across the mountain tops. I wanted to go there instantly. I heard not yet, I am sending suffering and shame to guide you through tragedies, If you will continue to learn willingly from these sufferings and shame, you will grow hinds feet and be able to skip across the mountain tops with us
Wow, I said okay, and said lets go!
What a bumpy ride, now in appreciation for all the good and bad that had gone on prior to me seeing new in love and mercy to all presently

 

[GWH]

The Holy Spirit ministers to the spiritual need of God's people. Angels minister to the physical needs. They may also be messengers. Many can testify to help from beings who appear to be human, yet have greater powers than we have. Angels have been used to speak to God's people, such as Joseph and Mary with respect to the birth of Jesus.

An example. My late friend mentor checked himself out of hospital. He was recovered but very weak. We had a very small mobility scooter. The hospital refused to help as he had checked himself out. It was late at night and very few people were around.

We called a taxi for disabled people, but the driver would not take the scooter. My friend was to big for me to lift and too weak to get on the scooter. We seemed to be beaten. We prayed. A man (?) at least 6 ft tall and well built "just happened" to come along. He lifted my 120 kg friend up easily and put him on the scooter. We were amazed.

We turned around to thank the guy but he'd gone. I can't be 100% sure, but it sure seemed like an angel had come to help us. I've had other experiences of help that came out of nowhere. I know others can say the same.

Yes, I had a similar experience but wonder if it is right to attribute such help to angels instead of to the Comforter. In order to answer this question I would prefer to examine NT doctrinal passages rather than speculate about the meaning of OT historical passages or RV. I am aware of references to either angels or the HS in the NT, but are there any places that describe them working together?

 

[GWH]

only a third of Angels fell, not all
God Father be the Holy Spirit, I see was Father in the walk of Jesus that Jesus said, unless he went home to Heaven, The Holy Spirit would not come
Therefore we are all left to get given new life from Father through risen Son. I say the risen for a reason. Father is not God of the dead, Father is Father of the living, Son is risen, resurrected for us to be given new life in love to all who believe Daddy, PaPa, Father, not a few as the first born flesh only knows how to do, love only those that love them back
Are we alll familiar with that? I think so, I know I am from past.
So. we all get guides that are in unison with Daddy, PaPa, Father you think?
I see this amazing mysterious grace given us all by Son for us all. Each having their own special gifts. Wow Thank you Daddy, PaPa, Father for risen Son to teach me new

I saw this once, Father and Son skipping across the mountain tops. I wanted to go there instantly. I heard not yet, I am sending suffering and shame to guide you through tragedies, If you will continue to learn willingly from these sufferings and shame, you will grow hinds feet and be able to skip across the mountain tops with us
Wow, I said okay, and said lets go!
What a bumpy ride, now in appreciation for all the good and bad that had gone on prior to me seeing new in love and mercy to all presently

Yes, but see what I just posted to Gideon.

 

[birdie]

I have difficulty jibing the role of angels with the role of the Holy Spirit, so I would like to explore that question
starting from Hebrews 1:14, "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?"

Does this teaching not conflict with the ministry of the Holy Spirit described in the Gospel of John as our advocate (14:16-17),
the testifier about Jesus (15:26) and guide (16:12-15)?

Thanks GWH for your question about Hebrews 1:14: "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? "

Many persons read this and think that this means that angels don't have a physical body, because they are called 'spirits' in this verse. It is my opinion that this is simply the Bible's way of describing true believers. Each believer, in my opinion, is a ministering spirit. Further, each believer ministers to them who shall be heirs of salvation. Believers do this by sharing the gospel in whatever way the spirit leads them. Did you know that the word 'angel' simply means messenger, and that the Bible calls angels men in several places in the Bible?

 

[GWH]

Thanks GWH for your question about Hebrews 1:14: "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? "

Many persons read this and think that this means that angels don't have a physical body, because they are called 'spirits' in this verse. It is my opinion that this is simply the Bible's way of describing true believers. Each believer, in my opinion, is a ministering spirit. Further, each believer ministers to them who shall be heirs of salvation. Believers do this by sharing the gospel in whatever way the spirit leads them. Did you know that the word 'angel' simply means messenger, and that the Bible calls angels men in several places in the Bible?

Yes, and thanks for responding. How does that understanding of HB 1:14 jibe with v. 1-13?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I have difficulty jibing the role of angels with the role of the Holy Spirit, so I would like to explore that question
starting from Hebrews 1:14, "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?"

Does this teaching not conflict with the ministry of the Holy Spirit described in the Gospel of John as our advocate (14:16-17),
the testifier about Jesus (15:26) and guide (16:12-15)?

If you look at the Old Testament the mediators between God and men were angels. I’m pretty sure it’s referencing thier role in the Old Testament before jesus was born and the holy spirit was given to the general assembly of believers. Sort of there was a time till this happened when angels mediated everything

“And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: and also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.”
‭‭Joel‬ ‭2:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He was promising a new covenant that was personal to each one

“And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭31:34‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He was promising to give his spirit to believers eventually in that new covenant but until then you had angels as messengers and mediators ministering the covenant to man like this

“ his ministers a flame of fire “

“And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭3:2, 4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

or this

“Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭23:20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭7:30‬ ‭

In the ot angels were often ministers of zgods messages and authority on earth . In the nt , you’ll bite it’s the apostles and other men filled with his spirit that excercise the authority and do the ministering of his message and words to the people

 

[Adstar]

I have difficulty jibing the role of angels with the role of the Holy Spirit, so I would like to explore that question
starting from Hebrews 1:14, "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?"

Does this teaching not conflict with the ministry of the Holy Spirit described in the Gospel of John as our advocate (14:16-17),
the testifier about Jesus (15:26) and guide (16:12-15)?

I have no problem with the role of the angels and the role of the Holy Spirit.. To me they are different roles.. The Holy Spirit performs a higher role and is in direct communication with us.. Angels of God on the other hand work in the background doing things they are ordered to do by The Holy Spirit..

 

[GWH]

If you look at the Old Testament the mediators between God and men were angels. I’m pretty sure it’s referencing thier role in the Old Testament before jesus was born and the holy spirit was given to the general assembly of believers. Sort of there was a time till this happened when angels mediated everything

“And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: and also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.”
‭‭Joel‬ ‭2:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He was promising a new covenant that was personal to each one

“And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭31:34‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He was promising to give his spirit to believers eventually in that new covenant but until then you had angels as messengers and mediators ministering the covenant to man like this

“ his ministers a flame of fire “

“And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭3:2, 4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

or this

“Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭23:20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭7:30‬ ‭

In the ot angels were often ministers of zgods messages and authority on earth . In the nt , you’ll bite it’s the apostles and other men filled with his spirit that excercise the authority and do the ministering of his message and words to the people

You hit upon the main reason I am wondering about angels, because 1TM 2:3-5 teaches that there is only one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.

So, I am wondering whether OT angels are akin to (or functioned in a way similar to) the Mosaic Sacrificial Law:
The Law foreshadowed the Gospel, and the angels foreshadowed the Holy Spirit.

 

[GWH]

I have no problem with the role of the angels and the role of the Holy Spirit.. To me they are different roles.. The Holy Spirit performs a higher role and is in direct communication with us.. Angels of God on the other hand work in the background doing things they are ordered to do by The Holy Spirit..

Please see what I just posted to Pilgrim. because those roles are not very different
and the mediatory role of angels contradicts the teaching of 1TM 2:3-5.

I compare this conundrum with the problem of celebrating Christmas and Easter with Santa and the Bunny,
because their personalities and roles compete with glorifying the person and work of Jesus.

Over...

 

[birdie]

Yes, and thanks for responding. How does that understanding of HB 1:14 jibe with v. 1-13?

Thanks GWH. There are many points from verses 1-13. Are you interested in a particular one. Verse 6, for example, says: "

And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
"

That means that when God brings Jesus into the world he makes it so all the true believers in Christ worship Jesus.

 

[Gideon300]

Yes, I had a similar experience but wonder if it is right to attribute such help to angels instead of to the Comforter. In order to answer this question I would prefer to examine NT doctrinal passages rather than speculate about the meaning of OT historical passages or RV. I am aware of references to either angels or the HS in the NT, but are there any places that describe them working together?

Angels do God's bidding. (Psalm 103.20) I don't distinguish between God the Father, Son or Spirit in such instances. The angels perform different roles, as I tried to point out. The Holy Spirit did not lift my friend onto the seat of his mobility scooter. I do believe that the Holy Spirit led us to pray for help rather than send my friend back to the hospital reception.

 

[GWH]

Thanks GWH. There are many points from verses 1-13. Are you interested in a particular one. Verse 6, for example, says: "

And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
"

That means that when God brings Jesus into the world he makes it so all the true believers in Christ worship Jesus.

Okay, I guess you equate angels with saints everywhere in the NT? How does that work, beginning in LK 1?

 

[Gideon300]

You hit upon the main reason I am wondering about angels, because 1TM 2:3-5 teaches that there is only one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.

So, I am wondering whether OT angels are akin to (or functioned in a way similar to) the Mosaic Sacrificial Law:
The Law foreshadowed the Gospel, and the angels foreshadowed the Holy Spirit.

The NT does not say a a great deal about angels. But they are still active. Hebrews 13:2 says that some Christians have entertained angels without realising it. An angel opened prison doors to let Peter out.

If you have inherited salvation, angels are here to help you. (Hebrews 1:14). There seems to be two extremes in the Christian world. One is to ignore angels completely. The other is to become obsessed with angels. I do not think a lot about angels, but I thank God for what they have done for me - that I am aware of. There may instances where an angel has helped and I dot realise it. One day, all will be clear.

 

[GWH]

Angels do God's bidding. (Psalm 103.20) I don't distinguish between God the Father, Son or Spirit in such instances. The angels perform different roles, as I tried to point out. The Holy Spirit did not lift my friend onto the seat of his mobility scooter. I do believe that the Holy Spirit led us to pray for help rather than send my friend back to the hospital reception.

Why not credit the HS with helping the whole way? What do you think of birdie's understanding of HB 1?

 

[birdie]

Okay, I guess you equate angels with saints everywhere in the NT? How does that work, beginning in LK 1?

Thanks GWH. The angel Gabriel in Luke 1 is called an angel of the Lord. The angel of the Lord is usually a picture of Jesus in the Bible, and it is possible that that may be the case for Gabriel. We read about the angel of the Lord who blessed the lads in the Old Testament and who redeemed. This would be Jesus, since Jesus is the redeemer and the one who blesses. We read, :'"The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth. ". In Genesis, we also read:, "And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. " Perhaps you get the idea that the angel of the Lord is a picture of Jesus.

 

[GWH]

Thanks GWH. The angel Gabriel in Luke 1 is called an angel of the Lord. The angel of the Lord is usually a picture of Jesus in the Bible, and it is possible that that may be the case for Gabriel. We read about the angel of the Lord who blessed the lads in the Old Testament and who redeemed. This would be Jesus, since Jesus is the redeemer and the one who blesses. We read, :'"The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth. ". In Genesis, we also read:, "And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. " Perhaps you get the idea that the angel of the Lord is a picture of Jesus.

So, Jesus appeared to Zechariah in 1:11, then to Mary in v.28, then became Jesus in Mary, then to the shepherds in 2:9 while being the baby in the manger in v.12, and went into heaven in v.15 while remaining in the manger in v.16?

 

[birdie]

So, Jesus appeared to Zechariah in 1:11, then to Mary in v.28, then became Jesus in Mary, then to the shepherds in 2:9 while being the baby in the manger in v.12, and went into heaven in v.15 while remaining in the manger in v.16?

Thanks for your specific reference to Zechariah 1:11. What are you asking about this verse? Are you asking whether the angel of the Lord is Jesus here? In verse 9 of that chapter we read, "Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these be. " It seems that Zechariah asked the Lord (that's Jesus). And then the angel answered. So, it seems that the angel is a picture of Jesus here as well, or at least a good probability. Is that what you are asking?

I think you must also be referencing Luke 1:28 where the angel tells Mary she is highly favored. It is not really that Mary has already conceived at that point, most likely, for a couple verses later we read: "And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. "

Luke chapter 2 would have to be a case where Jesus was baby Jesus, but, perhaps at the same time, able to be in angel form - assuming the angel is Jesus in this case.

There are many cases where the angel of the Lord seems a much clearer picture of Jesus than the instances you mention. For example in the account of the burning bush. Also, in several instances in Revelation. For example, the angel that lightens the earth in Rev 18:1, or Michael the archangel who defeats the dragon by the blood of the lamb and by the word of his testimony. Or the angel that binds Satan with a great chain. Or the angel in 1 Thes 4:16 who is called the Lord himself and has the voice of the archangel. And so on. Do you have any more specific questions?

 

[Adstar]

Please see what I just posted to Pilgrim. because those roles are not very different
and the mediatory role of angels contradicts the teaching of 1TM 2:3-5.

I compare this conundrum with the problem of celebrating Christmas and Easter with Santa and the Bunny,
because their personalities and roles compete with glorifying the person and work of Jesus.

Over...

Where does the verse you quoted say Angels are here to Mediate between Man and God??

Hebrews 1:14, "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?"

The Word Mediate is not in the above verse.. Ministering is not the same word as Mediate,,,