How do pre-tribbers explain the "saints" in Colossians 1?

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Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
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#21
The woman is responsible for the blood of Christian saints, not Jewish saints which is not a thing in the new Covenant. Only Christians, be it Jewish or gentiles. The saints are Christians.
That's just not factual, the Saints AND the Martyrs of Jesus signify TWO DIFFERWNT ENTITIES, the Jews BEFORE the Cross and the Bride of Christ/Martyrs of Jesus AFTER the Cross.

The Harlot is ALL FALSE RELIGION over All Time. Thats why she gets killed off by the 10 Kings, there is no longer any place for Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Witchcraft, Zeus nor Jupiter worship, the 10 Kings (Europe) demand the worshiping of the Beast (Little Horn) seeing as how they are all humanists now, that seems logical.

Saints AND the Martyrs of Jesus says its all those of Gid BEFORE the Cross and after the Cross. You do understand Abraham was justified because he BELIEVED in the coming PROMISED REDEEMER right? If you don't understand that go read Gal. 3.
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
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#22
The Rapture is PRE TRIB.
The Lord Jesus said that it is only false prophets who would teach a (secret) pre tribulation advent and rapture, and that He would come IMMEDIATELY after the great tribulation with great glory (at the 7th Trumpet) and every eye would see Him, to deal with the wicked, take His people home and set up the Millennium Kingdom! Matt 24v23-31, 1Thess 4v13-18, 2Thess 2v1-12, Titus 2v13, Rev 19v11-21, Rev 1v7, Rev 11v15-18.

You obviously take the warning in Rev 22v18,19 with levity and contempt!

Paul committed Hymenaeus and Alexander to Satan for execution because they taught wrong doctrine on the Second Coming (of Christ), thus overthrowing the faith of some Christians, do you think the Lord Jesus will think any differently about you, when your erroneous teaching on His Second Coming will overthrow Christians' faith in these last days, for that will be the effect of believing a secret pre-tribulation advent and rapture of the Lord Jesus? 1Tim 1v19,20, 2Tim 2v16-18, Matt 24v45-51.
 
Dec 15, 2021
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#23
There is but one nation of our Father. Jesus came to save the nations and unite them with His Original Flock. If you understand the word, Judah, you understand that all believe fit this description, and this also gives bright light to the warning of Revelation, :Beware of those who say they are Jews but are not. Rather, they are a synagogue of Satan."
Understanding that warning with the knowledge of what a Jew is tells us these folks are in all assemblies, all.

I would appreciate your understanding on the word Judah because I can see every believer being called of Jacob or Israel but I do not understand the fit of 'all into Judah' unless you are talking about dwelling in Jerusalem being called Jews.
I am looking forward to being enlightened as I've read some of your stuff

I THINK I have a pretty clear picture of the synagogue of Satan, the mystery of iniquity that is already at work, those who claim to be but are just liars, bad figs, tares etc.

Deuteronomy 32:3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. 4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. 5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation. 6 Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee? Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will shew thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee. 8 When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
Deuteronomy 32:9 For the LORD's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#24
When leah was granted a male child she declared that God had given her a male child and she would praise God so she named the child Judah. Praise Yah. Praise God.

All who truly praise God are true to Him. This is the basic meaning of Judah when translated. Also, Paul describes a true Jew .
 
Dec 15, 2021
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#25
Saints AND the Martyrs of Jesus says its all those of Gid BEFORE the Cross and after the Cross. You do understand Abraham was justified because he BELIEVED in the coming PROMISED REDEEMER right? If you don't understand that go read Gal. 3.
How does the 'blindness' in part figure into the division?
 
Dec 15, 2021
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#26
When leah was granted a male child she declared that God had given her a male child and she would praise God so she named the child Judah. Praise Yah. Praise God.

All who truly praise God are true to Him. This is the basic meaning of Judah when translated. Also, Paul describes a true Jew .

I see what you were going for and I can understand the basic meaning, it was the context in which it was used that threw me off. Thank you for the super quick response
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#27
I see what you were going for and I can understand the basic meaning, it was the context in which it was used that threw me off. Thank you for the super quick response
Just an added bit here. There is a big difference between the words that make up Judah from the Hebrew, and what men have twisted into meaning.
One is transliteration,
however it is the translation with its true meaning.

The first is nothing more than a laabel, like names have come to be in our time.
 
O

Omegatime

Guest
#28
Matthew 24:15 “So when you see the desolating sacrilege spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains;

Most of these scriptures are speaking directly to Israel and Israel alone
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
7,576
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#29
I'm trying to understand the point you are making? So the word "saints" is used four times at Colossians 1 and your connecting it to Revelation 4 so here's my question? How did you determine the saints are still on earth in Revelation 4 when at verse 10 it says, "the elders "WILL" fall down before Him who sits on the throne. Is your pont that the elders who fall down is yet future based on the word, "Will?" Just asking!

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Can we agree that the "saints" referred to in Colossians 1 are the church? If so, we can move on to the next point. If not, we'll probably net get on the same page.
 

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
2,958
1,388
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Midwest
#30
op: Bible explanation of "saints" in Colossians?
Precious friends, these "saints" are the ONE NEW man (Eph 2:15),
the Body Of CHRIST, with Heavenly Inheritance, According To God's
Revelation Of HIS MYSTERY! (Romans Through Philemon KJB!)


Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

The "saints" of the nation of ISRAEL, with earthly inheritance, is according
to God's prophetic program! (Genesis-John, HEBREWS - Revelation KJB!)

Things that are Different are just "NOT the same!" Amen? More here:
God's Approval/TWO Different Gospels
Distinctions In God's Two Different Programs: Prophecy vs Mystery!
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
7,576
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#31
Can we agree that the "saints" referred to in Colossians 1 are the church? If so, we can move on to the next point. If not, we'll probably net get on the same page.
Should say "never" get.
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
1,288
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#32
How does the 'blindness' in part figure into the division?
It doesn't in reality, the "BLINDNESS IN PART" simply means God has deemed Israel as a Nation to be unable to carry His Gospel to the masses as a Nation, He thus says they are blind IN PART, meaning that Jews like Paul, Peter, and others at their time, along with some Messianic Jews down through the years (like all of our kin) can still come to Christ, by Faith in Jesus, but that option as a Nation was seen as God as "DEAD MEN'S BONES" unto Him, thus he gave the mantle of taking the Gospel over unto the Gentiles, thus the IN PART of course means that any man, even a Jew, can come unto God through faith in Christ, but Israel as a nation would not be pursued by God any furth until after the Time of the Gentiles, during the 70th week, after the Rapture of the "Mostly" Gentile Church.

So, God blinded Israel IN PART means as a Nation but nt as individuals, which would not be God like, because God allows ALL MEN to come unto Christ, but as a Nation, Gd saw them as Dead Men's Bones until 1948.

So, the division doesn't really figure in because SOME Jews wee Martyrs also after the cross. Catch my drift? So, there were Saints who were mostly Jews before the Cross, I think some Gentiles were deemed men of God, the Harlot who helped Israel out was deemed righteous I think, and the after the cross we have both Gentiles and Jews who are Martyrs of Jesus Christ. So, I think "THE DIVISION" is the Cross itself, on either side of the cross we have Saints and then Martyrs of Jesus.
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
1,288
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#33
The Lord Jesus said that it is only false prophets who would teach a (secret) pre tribulation advent and rapture, and that He would come IMMEDIATELY after the great tribulation with great glory (at the 7th Trumpet) and every eye would see Him, to deal with the wicked, take His people home and set up the Millennium Kingdom! Matt 24v23-31, 1Thess 4v13-18, 2Thess 2v1-12, Titus 2v13, Rev 19v11-21, Rev 1v7, Rev 11v15-18.
Jesus never said no such thing, you telling fibs on what Jesus said are in real danger sir. Just because you post that scripture, with ZERO UNDERSTANDIG of how to rightly divide the meaning of it, just proves your lack of spiritual understanding in these matters. We understand that Jews will come to repentance during the 70th week, you evidently do not understand this, and if so, then its really lame to ever cite this scripture, a 5th grader could figure out that if Jesus is sent ONLY unto the Jews and if they repent during he 70th week after the Pre Trib Rapture, then when those Raptured return with Jesus as Rev. 19 shows(you will dodge this), then Jesus will return to earth to save the Jews AFTER the 1260 days of tribulation, with the Church who can be visibly seen in Rev. chapters 4, 5 and 7 in Heaven, and no one goes to heaven until the Rapture, as 1 Cor. 15:50-52 shows us, the Dead are raised at the exact same time as the living are taken, thus there would be no one in Heaven in Rev. 4, 5 and 7 unless the Pre Trib Rapture happens.

If course you have a mental block, you cant understand the simple facts because you have a predetermined, erroneous understanding, Jesus was speaking unto the Jews in Matt. 24 and thus in Rev. 14, where we see the Three Harvests, Jesus is shown Harvesting the Wheat (Jews at his return) then he is shown harvesting the Wicked Grapes in verses 17-20, and in a FLASHBACK, from upon a cloud, he is shown harvesting the Barley or Church, the Barley is ALWYS HARVESTED FIRST !! Each has a first-fruits. Some Jews, like Peter and Paul are a part of the Barley Harvest, they do not need crushing in order to be sifted, Wheat does need crushing before it can be sifted. The very word Tribulation comes from a Greek word TRIBULUM, which was a tool used to CRUSH Wheat with. Wheat had to be crushed, Barley didn't.

Three Main Harvests Of Souls

I will give you rains at the right season; the land will produce crops, and the trees of the field will produce their fruit. Your threshing will continue until the grape harvest, and your grape harvest will continue until it is time to plant. Then you will have plenty to eat and live safely in your land. ~ Leviticus 26:4-5, NCV

God can use a metaphor better than the most gifted writers. For example, He takes the Old Testament’s annual two grains and one fruit agricultural harvests and develops them into well-defined metaphors that describe the New Testament’s spiritual harvests of souls—those saved believers who enter into the Kingdom of God (see the rich harvest imagery in Matthew 9:36-38; John 4:35-36).

Now, in order to understand His metaphors, the three spiritual harvests of souls, believers first need to understand the significance of God’s three mandated major festivals that He situates within aforesaid agricultural harvests. The three agricultural-related mandated feasts that all Jewish men who, more than likely, are 20 years of age and older, had to attend are the Passover Feast, the Feast of Pentecost, and the Feast of Tabernacles (cf. Exodus 23:14-17; Deuteronomy 16:16). Moreover, the two different grain harvests and the one fruit harvest that are compared to three spiritual harvests of souls are the Barley Harvest, Wheat Harvest, and Grapes Harvest—these harvest metaphors depict God’s harvest times as a time of opportunity in the here and now, and a time of final judgment.

It is important to note here that every crop of grain and fruit will have firstfruits (the grain and fruit of every crop that ripens early), and every crop of grain and fruit will experience a time of separation. When the crop is ripe, it is harvested by separating the chaff or the refuse. Thus, mature barley goes through a time of separation or winnowing. Using a wooden fork or “fan,” winnowers throw the gathered barley against the wind so that the wind can separate the chaff (husk) from the grain. On the other hand, mature wheat goes through a time of separation or crushing/threshing. Using a tribulum, a wooden board with holes in it, or using a wooden sled, both of which oxen often pull, threshers stand or sit on the board or sled as it is drawn over the grain that is laying on the threshing floor, causing the grain to be separated from the husk (chaff) and straw.

Because barley and wheat still will have certain amounts of chaff, little stones, and/or some tares mixed in them, these grains must go through an additional time of separation or sifting (sieving). The sifters sit on the floor and shake the sieve, which contains the grain, until the chaff begins to appear on the top. Then the sifters blow away the chaff by using the power from their breath. Shifting, thus, is necessary before the grain can be ground into meal.

Lastly, the mature grapes also go through a time of separation or crushing (treading). Using a winepress, treaders crush the grapes until the grapes’ juice is separated from the grapes’ skins, which results in the pressed juice running into the vats.

Having said that, here, in a nutshell, are the three main spiritual Harvests of Souls:

FIRST HARVEST — BARLEY HARVEST (@first FRUITS FEAST)

See ~ Ephesians 5:27; ~ 1 Thessalonians 5:23, NCV; ~ 2 Peter 3:14, NCV

The Barley Harvest represents the overcomers. These are the saints whose hearts are tender—the repentant on-fire believers, whose body, soul and spirit are without spot or blemish; completely sanctified unleavened lives driven by the Wind of the Holy Spirit. Like Christ Jesus, they too are Firstfruits; they are the Bride of Christ; they are the redeemed, resurrected, never-to-die again, glorified sons and daughters of God, and they are the FIRST PHASE of the spiritual Harvest of Souls who participate in the 1st resurrection. Furthermore, some of them will be the resurrected dead in Christ AND some will be the raptured alive in Christ (see 1 Corinthians 15:51- 54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

More important, these overcomers have been winnowed, which means they did not need to be harvested by using a “TRIBULUM” (Latin word from which comes the English word, Tribulation). In other words, the Barley Harvest of Souls will NOT have to go through the seven-year TRIBULATION, of which the last 3½ years are going to be the time of great distress and great pressure that this world has never seen before, and will never see again.

SECOND HARVEST — WHEAT HARVEST (@FEAST OF PENTECOST)

See ~ Matthew 3:11-12; ~ Matthew 13:38-39; ~ Revelation 14:14-16, NCV

The Wheat Harvest represents all the rest of the believers—the left behind hardhearted and/or carnal believers who were not ready when the Bride of Christ was raptured. These believers must endure the seven-year Tribulation, and for them the Great Tribulation (the last 3½ years) is a judgment that can be compared to the most severe action of Wheat threshing that is done in order to make the Wheat easier to separate (easier to winnow) away from the chaff. The Wheat Harvest, thus, represents those believers who are asleep, in the spiritual sense (see Matthew 13:25). Furthermore, the Firstfruits of this Wheat Harvest will be the martyred (beheaded) saints who are the SECOND PHASE of the spiritual Harvest of Souls who participate in the 1st resurrection, and the remaining mature Wheat will be those surviving Tribulation saints—the left-behind believers who have been thoroughly purged; see Revelation 7:13-14).

If you can't rightly divide the word, its on you and no one else. The LAST TRUMP refers to the Feast of Trumps 100th Trump which always ENDS the Harvest (THINK Church Age), not the 7 Trumps of Judgments.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
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#34
Can we agree that the "saints" referred to in Colossians 1 are the church? If so, we can move on to the next point. If not, we'll probably net get on the same page.
Absolutely! I too am a post-tribulationist.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
7,576
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#35
Absolutely! I too am a post-tribulationist.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Okay then. Revelation 13:7 says: "And it was given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them."

And Revelation 14:9-12: "Then another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, 'If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, then he shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And they shall be tormented with fire and brimstone before the holy angels and before the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and his image, and anyone who receives the mark of his name.' Here is the endurance of the saints; those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus."

These are clearly events taking place on earth. If the saints in Colossians 1 are the church, why can't these saints also be the church? The church which was never raptured in Revelation 4, as some claim. That's my whole point.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#36
Why should anyone be crying because of the Pre-Tribulation Resurrection/Rapture? It is called "the Blessed Hope" or Christians, but some would rather not think about what that means. They would rather not have Christians having a Blessed Hope.

As to the OP there was no need to connect Colossians 1 to Revelation. Instead the question should have been this "Does Daniel speak about the Church when he talks about "saints"? And the answer would have been a resounding "NO!"
 
Dec 15, 2021
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#37
Just an added bit here. There is a big difference between the words that make up Judah from the Hebrew, and what men have twisted into meaning.
One is transliteration,
however it is the translation with its true meaning.

The first is nothing more than a laabel, like names have come to be in our time.
Moses - drawn from the water - transliteration - translation or translation - transliteration

dictionary only tells me 'celebrated'
 

Charlie24

Well-known member
Oct 31, 2021
998
270
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#38
Okay then. Revelation 13:7 says: "And it was given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them."

And Revelation 14:9-12: "Then another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, 'If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, then he shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And they shall be tormented with fire and brimstone before the holy angels and before the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and his image, and anyone who receives the mark of his name.' Here is the endurance of the saints; those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus."

These are clearly events taking place on earth. If the saints in Colossians 1 are the church, why can't these saints also be the church? The church which was never raptured in Revelation 4, as some claim. That's my whole point.
One of the many reasons I say the tribulation saints are not the church saints is found in Rev. 7:9-14.

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

I think this is pretty clear that these many saints washed themselves in the Blood of the Lamb DURING the Great Tribulation.

But those who had already washed themselves in the Blood of the Lamb and alive at the time the tribulation is to begin, have already been taken from this wrath of God on unrighteousness at the rapture.

When Jesus said that the gate that leads to life is narrow and few there be that find it, He was speaking of those saved during this time before the Great tribulation comes. In other words, most of the world will go through this time of trouble called the tribulation with very few being saved and escaping it.

This accounts for the great number of people saved during the tribulation.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
2,026
506
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#39
Okay then. Revelation 13:7 says: "And it was given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them."

And Revelation 14:9-12: "Then another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, 'If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, then he shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And they shall be tormented with fire and brimstone before the holy angels and before the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and his image, and anyone who receives the mark of his name.' Here is the endurance of the saints; those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus."

These are clearly events taking place on earth. If the saints in Colossians 1 are the church, why can't these saints also be the church? The church which was never raptured in Revelation 4, as some claim. That's my whole point.
Got it, now I know your point. Here's another good question to ask the pre-tribbers who try to "jackhammer" their view on the following at 2 Thessalonians 1:1-10. Specifically starting at vs5, "This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed yyou are suffering."

Vs6, For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, vs7, AND TO GIVE REST/RELIEF TO YOU who are afflicted and to us as well "WHEN" the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, vs8, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus."

Vs9, "And these will pay the penalty of ETERNAL DESTRUSTION away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power." So when do we get rest or relief, WHEN Jesus returns. Also notice that the Apostle Paul (and this is a key point) includes Himself at vs7, "and to us as well" when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven etc.

Notice that the Apostle Paul and all the saints are already getting rest and relief awaiting along with other saints even up to today the second coming? So, why is there a need for a rapture of the Church. Are you going to tell me while all hell is let loose in on earth the raptured ones are going to enjoy the Lamb's supper? It does not make sense.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,230
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#40
Moses - drawn from the water - transliteration - translation or translation - transliteration

dictionary only tells me 'celebrated'
Moses - drawn from the water - transliteration - translation or translation - transliteration

dictionary only tells me 'celebrated'
Moses is the transliterationn. Translation would be in the language of the reader unless reading in Hebrew. Jesus is a transliteration also. The closest I know to the actual translation of His name would be "Yesh" or Redeemer and Yah or God. It can be drawn out to Savior Yahweh.. Yeshiyahu.. is one transliteration depending upon the epoch of that lingual usage, however it has come to be Yeshua.

Another example of the roots of thename of our Lord wuld be the father of David, Jesse. Jessi is Yeshi meaning Yesh as Redeemer and I the suffix for thefirst person singular possessive, my, ergo my redeemer.

Is it not something upon which to meditate when we think of the name of King David? His name is translated as Beloved. All the prophesies about King David now become bathed in Holy Light, amen.