How do preachers or teachers explain this?

[Dino246]

John and James believed that they were already saved because they were among the apostles.
However, the truth is that salvation was not easy, according to what the Lord Jesus told them.
Even though they were among the apostles, since salvation was not something easily attained, they still had to drink the cup that the Lord Jesus drank before they could be saved.

Jesus did not tell James and John that "Salvation is not easy"... not in this passage and not anywhere else.

Instead of presenting your own ideas that have no basis in Scripture and treating them as Scripture, perhaps you should try starting with the literal text of Scripture and show word by word where you think Jesus said salvation is not easy.

 

[ZNP]

Jesus did not tell James and John that "Salvation is not easy"... not in this passage and not anywhere else.

Instead of presenting your own ideas that have no basis in Scripture and treating them as Scripture, perhaps you should try starting with the literal text of Scripture and show word by word where you think Jesus said salvation is not easy.

I'm sorry, I haven't read through all 37 pages and 700+ posts but surely you have a working definition of "salvation" that you have already shared. Can you reshare the definition so I know what you are referring to by the word saved?

 

[Dino246]

I'm sorry, I haven't read through all 37 pages and 700+ posts but surely you have a working definition of "salvation" that you have already shared. Can you reshare the definition so I know what you are referring to by the word saved?

I know, according to the Scriptures, that because I have put my faith in Jesus Christ who died for my sins on the cross and who rose again to life, that I will spend eternity with Him and that the Holy Spirit indwells me as a guarantee.

What the OP means by it I don't know.

 

[ZNP]

I know, according to the Scriptures, that because I have put my faith in Jesus Christ who died for my sins on the cross and who rose again to life, that I will spend eternity with Him and that the Holy Spirit indwells me as a guarantee.

What the OP means by it I don't know.

Well don't you think a clear definition might help?

For example, dwelling for eternity with Christ is your definition. Is that with or without a crown? With or without a reward?

Paul says very clearly in 1Corinthians that some will suffer loss, they will be saved, but so as through fire and everything they built up in this life will go up in smoke.

In Hebrews it says a field that only brings forth thorns and thistles is near a curse. Yes, we are redeemed by the Lord, that is for eternity. But if you are a field that only brings forth thorns and thistles the Lord will set that field on fire to burn away all the weeds. There is no fruit from that field, but it still belongs to the Lord.

 

[Dino246]

Well don't you think a clear definition might help?

For example, dwelling for eternity with Christ is your definition. Is that with or without a crown? With or without a reward?

Paul says very clearly in 1Corinthians that some will suffer loss, they will be saved, but so as through fire and everything they built up in this life will go up in smoke.

In Hebrews it says a field that only brings forth thorns and thistles is near a curse. Yes, we are redeemed by the Lord, that is for eternity. But if you are a field that only brings forth thorns and thistles the Lord will set that field on fire to burn away all the weeds. There is no fruit from that field, but it still belongs to the Lord.

It seems that you're wanting a description, not a definition.

 

[ZNP]

It seems that you're wanting a description, not a definition.

No, my point is that all these endless debates about salvation are because people are working off of two different definitions. Some vessels are to honor and some to dishonor. The Lord has redeemed (purchased) both the fine china and the toilet. They are both redeemed by the Lord. As long as we all agree that this is what you mean by "salvation" then there is no problem.

 

[Godsgood]

Mark 10:38-39 is not about being saved. We are told what Jesus said about being saved in John 3:16, which says that it is by believeing in Him:

NKJV Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

The Mark verses are the response of Jesus to James and John request a more privileged place in heaven than the other apostles.

Mark 10:38-39 is not about being saved. We are told what Jesus said about being saved in John 3:16, which says that it is by believeing in Him:

Everyone who believes in and reads the Holy Scriptures claims to believe in the Lord Jesus, because it is easy for anyone to say so. However, true faith in the Lord Jesus should come from God, not from man (Matthew 16:15–17).

As evidence that a person’s belief in the Lord Jesus comes from God, that person must know the one true God. But if they do not know Him, then their belief comes only from man.

And those who know the one true God understand what the Lord meant when He spoke to John and James. They must first drink what the Lord drank in order to be saved, because the Lord was revealing the truth to them through His words.

 

[Godsgood]

Mark 10:38-39 is not about being saved. We are told what Jesus said about being saved in John 3:16, which says that it is by believeing in Him:

NKJV Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

The Mark verses are the response of Jesus to James and John request a more privileged place in heaven than the other apostles.

The Mark verses are the response of Jesus to James and John request a more privileged place in heaven than the other apostles.

John and James asked that one of them sit at the Lord’s right hand and the other at His left. Even if they could drink what the Lord drank in order to be saved, it would not happen, because there is no such thing. That is why He said to them, “You do not know what you are asking for.” Therefore, there is no such thing as the “privileged place” you are referring to, because such a position is not included in God’s plan for His kingdom.

If your knowledge of the Lord Jesus comes from God, and if you are able to speak with the Lord Jesus, He will reveal to you the truth about His plan for His kingdom, that there is no such privilege.

 

[Godsgood]

So do I, but it has no bearing on anyone's salvation.


Huh? Who says "I believe that simply being here means I am already saved"? I certainly didn't. I think you're putting words in my mouth so you have an excuse to criticize me.


Your use of causal relationships between ideas is strange. Your rejection of Bible truth is sad.

So do I, but it has no bearing on anyone's salvation.

You said that you are 100% certain that you are already saved.
Now you are saying that you are also asking God for mercy so that you may be saved.
You seem to be neither hot nor cold.
You are lukewarm before God, and therefore He will spit you out.
REVELATION 3:15-16
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

And in your current condition, it is not surprising that God has not granted you wisdom to understand His words, because you are like a wave being tossed back and forth. And you are a double minded person.
JAMES 1:5-8
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

 

[Godsgood]

So do I, but it has no bearing on anyone's salvation.


Huh? Who says "I believe that simply being here means I am already saved"? I certainly didn't. I think you're putting words in my mouth so you have an excuse to criticize me.


Your use of causal relationships between ideas is strange. Your rejection of Bible truth is sad.

Huh? Who says "I believe that simply being here means I am already saved"? I certainly didn't. I think you're putting words in my mouth so you have an excuse to criticize me.

The point is simply that you said you are 100% sure that you are saved.
Whether you are here or not has nothing to do with the issue.
You said you are certain of your salvation, that is the only point I am making.

And I am not criticizing you; I am simply sharing what the truth is according to God’s Word, so that people may be saved, as the Lord said in Mark 10:38–39.

If you do not want to believe, I will leave you to stand by your own beliefs.

 

[Godsgood]

You don't understand the Scripture, and as you refuse all instruction, there is no point in explaining it.

Let me repeat this to you.

We who have come to know the one true God have only one Teacher, the Lord Jesus.
No human being can teach us about the things of heaven, because all people are from the earth, not from heaven.
The Lord Jesus alone came from heaven and descended to earth; therefore, He alone is our Teacher.

If you try to force me to believe you by using harsh or hurtful words, you are only revealing more clearly who you really are.
You will not deceive even one of the lost sheep.

 

[Godsgood]

So do I, but it has no bearing on anyone's salvation.


Huh? Who says "I believe that simply being here means I am already saved"? I certainly didn't. I think you're putting words in my mouth so you have an excuse to criticize me.


Your use of causal relationships between ideas is strange. Your rejection of Bible truth is sad.

Your use of causal relationships between ideas is strange. Your rejection of Bible truth is sad.

What good is the teaching of someone who has not received wisdom from God? They will only lead you into the pit.
MATTHEW 15:14
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

 

[DavidLamb]

Mark 10:38-39 is not about being saved. We are told what Jesus said about being saved in John 3:16, which says that it is by believeing in Him:

Everyone who believes in and reads the Holy Scriptures claims to believe in the Lord Jesus, because it is easy for anyone to say so. However, true faith in the Lord Jesus should come from God, not from man (Matthew 16:15–17).

I agree that true faith comes from God. His word tells us so:

NKJV Php 1:29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

As evidence that a person’s belief in the Lord Jesus comes from God, that person must know the one true God. But if they do not know Him, then their belief comes only from man.

I agree with that too. We know the Father through the Son.

And those who know the one true God understand what the Lord meant when He spoke to John and James. They must first drink what the Lord drank in order to be saved, because the Lord was revealing the truth to them through His words.

No, that is not what Jesus was saying to James and John. They hadn't asked Him how they could be saved. They asked up for special positions in heaven. Nowhere in the Bible are we told that in order to be saved, we must drink the same cup Christ drank. Certainly we are told that once sinners are saved they will suffer for it, but that is because they have been saved, not in order to be saved. It is just wrong to say that we all have to believe that Jesus told James and John they had to drink the same cup as Him if we are to know the one true God.

 

[DavidLamb]

I agree that true faith comes from God. His word tells us so:

NKJV Php 1:29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,


I agree with that too. We know the Father through the Son.

No, that is not what Jesus was saying to James and John. They hadn't asked Him how they could be saved. They asked up for special positions in heaven. Nowhere in the Bible are we told that in order to be saved, we must drink the same cup Christ drank. Certainly we are told that once sinners are saved they will suffer for it, but that is because they have been saved, not in order to be saved. It is just wrong to say that we all have to believe that Jesus told James and John they had to drink the same cup as Him if we are to know the one true God.

Sorry about the rogue word "up" which somehow appeared in my post "They asked up for special positions" should just be "They asked for special positions." I was too late top edit it out, so I apologise.

 

[OMC]

Godsgood said:
"And those who know the one true God understand what the Lord meant when He spoke to John and James. They must first drink what the Lord drank in order to be saved, because the Lord was revealing the truth to them through His words".

When Jesus tells them, “You will drink the cup,” He is foretelling persecution, not prescribing a prerequisite for eternal life, because salvation is grounded in faith in Christ, not in duplicating His sufferings.

 

[Dino246]

No, my point is that all these endless debates about salvation are because people are working off of two different definitions. Some vessels are to honor and some to dishonor. The Lord has redeemed (purchased) both the fine china and the toilet. They are both redeemed by the Lord. As long as we all agree that this is what you mean by "salvation" then there is no problem.

"Salvation" is not a central issue in this thread though. The OP introduced it, and as is his pattern, rejects the biblical text in favour of his private "revelations" on the matter.

 

[ZNP]

"Salvation" is not a central issue in this thread though. The OP introduced it, and as is his pattern, rejects the biblical text in favour of his private "revelations" on the matter.

Arguments over salvation are almost always based on two different definitions of the term.

Jesus said to "pray that you would be accounted worthy to escape the things that are coming", to be raptured can be considered salvation. But clearly that is quite different from "you are saved by grace, it is not of you, but the free gift".

 

[Dino246]

Mark 10:38-39 is not about being saved. We are told what Jesus said about being saved in John 3:16, which says that it is by believeing in Him:

Everyone who believes in and reads the Holy Scriptures claims to believe in the Lord Jesus, because it is easy for anyone to say so. However, true faith in the Lord Jesus should come from God, not from man (Matthew 16:15–17).

As evidence that a person’s belief in the Lord Jesus comes from God, that person must know the one true God. But if they do not know Him, then their belief comes only from man.

And those who know the one true God understand what the Lord meant when He spoke to John and James. They must first drink what the Lord drank in order to be saved, because the Lord was revealing the truth to them through His words.

Sadly, your understanding of these things is not based on the whole counsel of Scripture.

Many people who "believe in and read the Holy Scriptures" do not claim to believe in the Lord Jesus. You don't. You think He was not God when He was in the flesh.

Your reasoning regarding knowing God is backwards. Sound belief in Christ is evidence that one does know the one true God.

Your claim to knowing what the Lord "meant" is not based on Scripture, but on your opinion.

 

[Dino246]

So do I, but it has no bearing on anyone's salvation.

You said that you are 100% certain that you are already saved.
Now you are saying that you are also asking God for mercy so that you may be saved.
You seem to be neither hot nor cold.
You are lukewarm before God, and therefore He will spit you out.
REVELATION 3:15-16
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

And in your current condition, it is not surprising that God has not granted you wisdom to understand His words, because you are like a wave being tossed back and forth. And you are a double minded person.
JAMES 1:5-8
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

My words, "So do I" are a response to your statement, "I believe in Mark 10:38–39".

You have made assumptions again, and added irrelevant and insulting commentary to them.

 

[Dino246]

Huh? Who says "I believe that simply being here means I am already saved"? I certainly didn't. I think you're putting words in my mouth so you have an excuse to criticize me.

The point is simply that you said you are 100% sure that you are saved.
Whether you are here or not has nothing to do with the issue.
You said you are certain of your salvation, that is the only point I am making.

And I am not criticizing you; I am simply sharing what the truth is according to God’s Word, so that people may be saved, as the Lord said in Mark 10:38–39.

If you do not want to believe, I will leave you to stand by your own beliefs.

You seem incapable of tracking your own statements.