How freewill salvation perverts God's Justice !

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Jesus did die for all, what sends people to hell is the fact that they don't chose to have faith in GOD. if we don't have faith then we chose to be separated from GOD and being separated from GOD when we die means we chose hell. there is free will, the free will to chose to go to heaven or hell [having faith or not]
 
Stinger said:
Not totally. God has decided to give me the opportunity to decide. Do you have issue with God's decision to give me a decision?
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I think it is great you have faith in Jesus. But, you have to remember, before you where born again you had already decided it was your nature to go against God..

I was the same, it was the Holy Spirit who renewed my heart.so that I could see to have faith..(faith itself is even a gift)and repent.. It was not my fallen nature to seek God (scripture tells us this quite clearly), yet God renewed my heart (regenerate). that's not free will. yet I freely chose to have faith and repent.
 
phil36 said:
I think it is great you have faith in Jesus. But, you have to remember, before you where born again you had already decided it was your nature to go against God..

I was the same, it was the Holy Spirit who renewed my heart.so that I could see to have faith..(faith itself is even a gift)and repent.. It was not my fallen nature to seek God (scripture tells us this quite clearly), yet God renewed my heart (regenerate). that's not free will. yet I freely chose to have faith and repent.
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Hello phil36,

You have to remember, this is the philosophical paradigm you have chosen to believe, it is not mine (nor do I believe it to be biblical).
 
Stinger said:
Hello phil36,

You have to remember, this is the philosophical paradigm you have chosen to believe, it is not mine (nor do I believe it to be biblical).
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Its not a philosophical paradigm..

John 3:19 would be a good start.

Romans 3:9-18

and Romans 8:7 should help even better.
 
phil36 said:
Its not a philosophical paradigm..

John 3:19 would be a good start.

Romans 3:9-18

and Romans 8:7 should help even better.
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Hello phil36,

If I understand the implication you are making here, it is that these verses say something in reference to what I have said before (and I have said that God has given me, like many others, the choice to believe in Him). I am taking it that you are thinking that one or more of these say that I have no such choice from God. I am not sure how you read these (for I just reread them myself) but if you think these have bearing, please do share. I see nothing here that denies the fact that God has given me a choice.
 
Stinger said:
Hello phil36,

If I understand the implication you are making here, it is that these verses say something in reference to what I have said before (and I have said that God has given me, like many others, the choice to believe in Him). I am taking it that you are thinking that one or more of these say that I have no such choice from God. I am not sure how you read these (for I just reread them myself) but if you think these have bearing, please do share. I see nothing here that denies the fact that God has given me a choice.
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Hi Stinger, we all make choices. And as fallen humans we naturally choose against God.. without question.. For no oe seeks after him..they love the darkness instead of the light.. Something needs to happen to change that first.. then we can make a moral choice that can please God.. Our nature/will is fallen and enslaved to evil and none of us sought after God.. but something happened to change that..then we did.
 
phil36 said:
Hi Stinger, we all make choices. And as fallen humans we naturally choose against God.. without question.. For no oe seeks after him..they love the darkness instead of the light.. Something needs to happen to change that first.. then we can make a moral choice that can please God.. Our nature/will is fallen and enslaved to evil and none of us sought after God.. but something happened to change that..then we did.
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Hello phil36,

From my perspective, you have simply given more of your philosophical paradigm without explanation. You quoted 3 verses previously as if they supported your position, and I asked you to specifically show how they say God has given me no choice to believe. I am not seeing any exegesis yet on your part, but I am willing discuss such, if there is willingness on your part.
 
Stinger said:
Hello phil36,

From my perspective, you have simply given more of your philosophical paradigm without explanation. You quoted 3 verses previously as if they supported your position, and I asked you to specifically show how they say God has given me no choice to believe. I am not seeing any exegesis yet on your part, but I am willing discuss such, if there is willingness on your part.
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I did, you chose to sin, you chose to rebel against God... it's in your nature.
 
phil36 said:
I did, you chose to sin, you chose to rebel against God... it's in your nature.
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Sorry, but you mentioned 3 verses as if they said something, and as if you were going to address them. I asked you to explain what you saw in them and I am still waiting for you to explain them. If you are unable to explain them (and perhaps how they deny that God has given me a choice), then why did you mention them? After having quoted them, are you now retracting without explanation?

Please reread posts 164 and 165. I do not see an answer to my question.
 
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Stinger said:
Sorry, but you mentioned 3 verses as if they said something, and as if you were going to address them. I asked you to explain what you saw in them and I am still waiting for you to explain them. If you are unable to explain them (and perhaps how they deny that God has given me a choice), then why did you mention them? After having quoted them, are you now retracting without explanation?

Please reread posts 164 and 165. I do not see an answer to my question.
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Hi Stinger,

You had already made your choice.. your confusing the issue by demanding that God gives you a choice as if it is your prerogative to demand this.

we all made our own choice by our own nature we had already chosen. the amazing thing is that God allows anyone who is born to be born in the first place and then to let them breath and live, and even more amazing that when you first sin he still allows you to live and breath.. but ultimately by your nature you chose to sin, to rebel and be a god hater.. that was your choice.

What you have t ask yourself, is when you say 'show where God has given me a choice' I say to you does God have to? is God duty bound to give you one because you think you deserve it. another thing that ties in with this, God already knew you.
 
phil36 said:
Hi Stinger,

You had already made your choice.. your confusing the issue by demanding that God gives you a choice as if it is your prerogative to demand this.

we all made our own choice by our own nature we had already chosen. the amazing thing is that God allows anyone who is born to be born in the first place and then to let them breath and live, and even more amazing that when you first sin he still allows you to live and breath.. but ultimately by your nature you chose to sin, to rebel and be a god hater.. that was your choice.

What you have t ask yourself, is when you say 'show where God has given me a choice' I say to you does God have to? is God duty bound to give you one because you think you deserve it. another thing that ties in with this, God already knew you.
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Hello phil36,

We can go round and round if you like, but you are the one who mentioned 3 passages in post 164 (seemingly to imply that God has given me no choice). All I have done since then is to try to get you to explain what you see in these 3 passages which shows that I have no choice. So far, you have given no explanation. Perhaps you have heard that these passages support whatever it is you are thinking, but you yourself have never given them very much thought, and now you find yourself hard-pressed to give an explanation. If that is the case, I would suggest getting in contact with your spiritual mentor and extract from him/her just what it is you are suppose to understand from these 3 passages, then come back and share what you have learned.

Realize that I am not demanding (as you say) that God give me a choice. I am saying that God has already given me a choice. It is you who has implied that these 3 passages show that God has given me no choice. All I am asking you to do is show me why you think this. This really isn't that difficult of a question. You brought them up, now explain to me how they say God has given me no choice.
 
Stinger said:
Hello phil36,

We can go round and round if you like, but you are the one who mentioned 3 passages in post 164 (seemingly to imply that God has given me no choice). All I have done since then is to try to get you to explain what you see in these 3 passages which shows that I have no choice. So far, you have given no explanation. Perhaps you have heard that these passages support whatever it is you are thinking, but you yourself have never given them very much thought, and now you find yourself hard-pressed to give an explanation. If that is the case, I would suggest getting in contact with your spiritual mentor and extract from him/her just what it is you are suppose to understand from these 3 passages, then come back and share what you have learned.

Realize that I am not demanding (as you say) that God give me a choice. I am saying that God has already given me a choice. It is you who has implied that these 3 passages show that God has given me no choice. All I am asking you to do is show me why you think this. This really isn't that difficult of a question. You brought them up, now explain to me how they say God has given me no choice.
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Hi Stinger,

I never said you had no choice.
 
phil36 said:
Hi Stinger,

I never said you had no choice.
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And do all have the ability to choose, just like I have? If yes, then you agree that God has given everyone the ability to choose, and so then, they participate (by choice) in their own salvation.
 
Hi Stinger,
I have never said that people cannot make choices.. I have said it numerous times already.. I make choices every single second of the day..whether I realize it or not.

But ask your self why you make the choices you do..the matter is not whether you can make choices, its why and how you do. I also have never said that you don't participate in your own salvation. I had faith and believed and repented.. as all Christians do.. that's not the issue either.

The issue is mans will and its enslavement.

all humans make the same choice, they reject God and are quite happy to do so... and none seek God.. so something has to happen first to change that.

God is wholly just to let all go to hell if he so wishes. for no one is righteous and no one seeks after God. yet he does indeed have mercy upon his sheep.
 
phil36 said:
Hi Stinger,
I have never said that people cannot make choices.. I have said it numerous times already.. I make choices every single second of the day..whether I realize it or not.

But ask your self why you make the choices you do..the matter is not whether you can make choices, its why and how you do. I also have never said that you don't participate in your own salvation. I had faith and believed and repented.. as all Christians do.. that's not the issue either.

The issue is mans will and its enslavement.

all humans make the same choice, they reject God and are quite happy to do so... and none seek God.. so something has to happen first to change that.

God is wholly just to let all go to hell if he so wishes. for no one is righteous and no one seeks after God. yet he does indeed have mercy upon his sheep.
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Hello phil36,

The part I underlined is what I called your philosophical position. What you have stated here is not a choice (and by this I believe you are saying that men cannot in general respond to the gospel). So can you show me how you arrive at this conclusion from those 3 passages you quoted earlier?
 
The issue is mans will and its enslavement. John 8:34;Ephesian 2:1-10

all humans make the same choice, they reject God and are quite happy to do so... and none seek God.. so something has to happen first to change that. Genesis 6:5; John 3:19;Romans 8:7;Isaiah 64:6;John 3:5-8

God is wholly just to let all go to hell if he so wishes. for no one is righteous and no one seeks after God. yet he does indeed have mercy upon his sheep. by the way the part ' no one is righteous above is scripture not philosophy! Genesis 2:17;John 10.


Hi Stinger hopefully the above helps you.
 
spacefreak said:
Jesus did die for all, what sends people to hell is the fact that they don't chose to have faith in GOD. if we don't have faith then we chose to be separated from GOD and being separated from GOD when we die means we chose hell. there is free will, the free will to chose to go to heaven or hell [having faith or not]
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This perverts the Justice of God !
 
phil36 said:
I think you are going off topic, no one from the Fall had the same nature as Adam and Eve originally had..even Adam and Eve.

referring to your post 63.

our actions, thoughts and deeds are tied to your nature.
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And would that not be either the new or the old depending on one's conscious choice to believe God or not
 
jag1977 said:
God did nothing there after. Man does a lot there after. (63)
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Oh yes God did, God through Christ went to the death for us to make us perfect for Father to give us new life as aq gift to all that believe and worship Father in Spirit and truth via the resurrected Christ:
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
 
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