How has science impacted your perspective on the Hebrew Bible?

[biblestudent78]

Without a quote I am not sure what you think is the correct definition of evolution.
Scientific evidence is that the Flood was indeed worldwide, but it occurred in stages over millions of years before the land uplifted into mountains.
True hard scientists do not start with speculation about unprovable theories but with provable facts/evidence.

The Propensity Principle (PP) is as scientific as possible regarding ultimate reality. The PP employs linear logic (rather than circular reasoning) to propose faith in the NT God as the best belief that solves the maze of ultimate reality as follows:

1. Current scientific knowledge cannot explain how the universe came to exist by means of natural causes, thus it is possible that the cause of the universe is a supernatural Creator/God.

2. The most creative species is humanity, whose traits also include language, moral conscience and God consciousness (personality), so it is possible that these human traits reflect attributes of a God who created humanity.

3. Existential reality indicates that humans are mortal and life is painful, but when life is happy, one wishes it would continue indefinitely. Thus, it is rational to seek ways to become immortal in a heavenly existence (where there is love and justice for all forever, the duo of desirables (DOD).

4. Comparing all possible ways of achieving the DOD, the best or most credible way/hope at this point appears to be the God who resurrected Christ Jesus.

5. When words from God are sought, the NT teachings of Jesus and Paul seem to be the most highly inspired when compared with other scriptures (including the OT), because its concept of one God as the just and all-loving Judge (rationale for morality) is spiritually highest or most advanced, and the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus is most credible.

6. Thus, it is appropriate or wise to believe in the NT God and to accept Jesus as God’s Messiah.

GWH
1. Lets start with agreement on terms. Your term "speculation" or some say "conjecture" is a philosophical term not a scientific one. All scientific inquiry starts with a theory or a proposal. There is no "speculation" is in wild guesses. Those theories are tested worldwide as no single scientist's work is accepted until it has been proven to be repeatable, consistent and understood at its deepest level. There is no science of "origins" as it relates to the universe. What we can detect is a continuous universal process of creation and destruction. Currently, our best technology can see "back" in time approx 13+ billion years. We can detect destruction and creation in our own Milky Way. That proves nothing about origins. However, it demonstrates natural forces and conditions of both creation and destruction. IMHO understanding these galactic processes does not argue for or against a creator. It is just data.

2. From the earliest known societies in history, the Sumerians, they too share your intuition that their existence must have come from the gods as even though they invented writing, astronomy (they knew the planets were on an elliptical path vs just circling) they invented the first known poetry and beer and a way of keeping time that we still use today. When we look worldwide as every kind of free society there is always an intuition about their being a creator.

3. Immortality has always been an objective of human societies. In most cases their is an individual that became immortal and thus must be worshipped. Ancient Egypt: Pharaohs were worshipped as literal, living incarnations of the god Horus. Upon their death, they were believed to achieve complete immortality and fuse with Osiris, the god of the afterlife. The Britannica article on Pharaohs details how they mediated between gods and humankind.Ancient Rome: The Roman Imperial Cult deified emperors and certain family members—such as Julius Caesar and Augustus—granting them cult honors, temples, and priesthoods, typically postmortem.Imperial Java & Cambodia: The Devaraja cult merged Indian Hindu-Buddhist traditions with local Austronesian ancestor worship. Monarchs were viewed as the earthly embodiment of supreme deities like Shiva, and grand temple complexes like Angkor Wat were constructed to celebrate their divine rule and immortal souls.Taoist China: In Chinese folk religion and Taoism, the Xian (Immortals) are legendary beings who achieved physical immortality and supernatural powers through virtue and Taoist practices. Historic and mythological figures like Guan Yu (the God of War) or the Eight Immortals are widely worshipped.Ancient Greece: Through hero cults, mortal kings, warriors, and athletes (such as Achilles or Erectheus) who achieved legendary greatness were granted divine honors

4. What way are you using in your comparison? In Revelation there is no "loving and forgiving God" Here we see a God and Jesus bring torcher, pain, destruction and vengeance, a river of human blood two hundred miles long etc. He even tells "lukewarm Christians" that God will spew them out of His mouth. The message is be a "true Christian" our God will punish in this live and burn you eternally. That does not seem to apply to "logic"

 

[Roger316]

I agree with what you meant, but I would note that those who think Genesis teaches physics need to acquire more scientific knowledge.

I wish I could post a link to my video on the subject. In short, the first chapter of Genesis declares that God created the universe and he endowed it with meaning and purpose.

 

[rewriter]

The Hubble space based telescope is looking back over 1 billion yrs in the past. Paleontology has demonstrate humanity has existed over hundreds of thousand of years. Geologists believe the earth is about 4 billion yrs old. Geoscientists look at crude oil that comes from 15,000 ft below the surface and see pollen grains, plant spores and algal cysts of ancient algae demonstrating ancient life on earth. These and many other data from the scientific community seem to describe a world very different than that of Genesis. How we relate to these evolving facts and how do we inform our children on the data that confronts the Genesis account?

God created humans with an intellect and the ability to investigate the physical creation. Now it is possible that God also created the appearance of great age and a paleontological history, but to assume that is to assume that God is a liar. If one takes that path, then there no reason to suggest that God did not create the entire universe just 5 minutes ago complete with our memories of all the things we remember doing prior to that time. Personally I doubt that either of these two options are real.

Rather I believe that God created the physical universe with a purpose, and allowed that purpose to be fulfilled, no matter how long it took in physical time. I believe that he gave humanity intellectual abilities to use to understand the physical universe as well as the spiritual one, and the laws governing both if we choose to do so, but also the ability to misuse our intellect and thus find excuses to believe whatever lies we wish to believe and justify those lies.

As a seminary student I was taught that WHEN, not if, I used science, that I should use the best currently available science in my theology, and since scripture assures me that I can learn of God from the physical realm, I follow that teaching. This does challenge the understanding of scripture that I was taught when I was a child but growing up means abandoning childish things. As a result, when I engage non-believers, I do not need to use scripture but rather seek to learn what they accept as truth and work from their truth to the gospel. Thus, I find no one unreachable, just unwilling to blindly accept what someone else proclaims as "true if you will only believe". I have also found that I can allow my faith to be felt by roughly 90% of all people with whom I offer to share the experience, and that is not an intellectual feeling, but a physical feeling that cannot be explained, but only experienced.

 

[GWH]

GWH
1. Lets start with agreement on terms. Your term "speculation" or some say "conjecture" is a philosophical term not a scientific one. All scientific inquiry starts with a theory or a proposal. There is no "speculation" is in wild guesses. Those theories are tested worldwide as no single scientist's work is accepted until it has been proven to be repeatable, consistent and understood at its deepest level. There is no science of "origins" as it relates to the universe. What we can detect is a continuous universal process of creation and destruction. Currently, our best technology can see "back" in time approx 13+ billion years. We can detect destruction and creation in our own Milky Way. That proves nothing about origins. However, it demonstrates natural forces and conditions of both creation and destruction. IMHO understanding these galactic processes does not argue for or against a creator. It is just data.

2. From the earliest known societies in history, the Sumerians, they too share your intuition that their existence must have come from the gods as even though they invented writing, astronomy (they knew the planets were on an elliptical path vs just circling) they invented the first known poetry and beer and a way of keeping time that we still use today. When we look worldwide as every kind of free society there is always an intuition about their being a creator.

3. Immortality has always been an objective of human societies. In most cases their is an individual that became immortal and thus must be worshipped. Ancient Egypt: Pharaohs were worshipped as literal, living incarnations of the god Horus. Upon their death, they were believed to achieve complete immortality and fuse with Osiris, the god of the afterlife. The Britannica article on Pharaohs details how they mediated between gods and humankind.Ancient Rome: The Roman Imperial Cult deified emperors and certain family members—such as Julius Caesar and Augustus—granting them cult honors, temples, and priesthoods, typically postmortem.Imperial Java & Cambodia: The Devaraja cult merged Indian Hindu-Buddhist traditions with local Austronesian ancestor worship. Monarchs were viewed as the earthly embodiment of supreme deities like Shiva, and grand temple complexes like Angkor Wat were constructed to celebrate their divine rule and immortal souls.Taoist China: In Chinese folk religion and Taoism, the Xian (Immortals) are legendary beings who achieved physical immortality and supernatural powers through virtue and Taoist practices. Historic and mythological figures like Guan Yu (the God of War) or the Eight Immortals are widely worshipped.Ancient Greece: Through hero cults, mortal kings, warriors, and athletes (such as Achilles or Erectheus) who achieved legendary greatness were granted divine honors

4. What way are you using in your comparison? In Revelation there is no "loving and forgiving God" Here we see a God and Jesus bring torcher, pain, destruction and vengeance, a river of human blood two hundred miles long etc. He even tells "lukewarm Christians" that God will spew them out of His mouth. The message is be a "true Christian" our God will punish in this live and burn you eternally. That does not seem to apply to "logic"

Okay. Re #1: IMO "speculation" means an educated guess, and information gleaned from the Hubble telescope indicates the best guess is that the universe began with a "bang" that will never collapse and be repeated. Hence, the universe is unique.

2. Re the Sumerians: Abraham came from that neck of the woods.

3. Re immortality: anyone who values life would want it to continue indefinitely, and the resurrection of Jesus is most believable/has the best evidence (cf. the PP).

4. Re Revelation: I view it as an attempt to apply various OT prophecies to the parousia of Christ in Judgment (Heb. 9:27-28), which does indeed have the problematic tone you cited, making harmonization with the rest of the NT difficult if viewed as normative. I view it--like the OT--as NOT normative but rather needing to be interpreted in light of the NT Gospel, including the other writings attributed to John, which teach that God is love (John 3:16, 1John 4:7-8).

 

[rewriter]

That's a very insightful thought. Similar philosophies are shared among those systems of belief.
They not only contradict the Bible, but also proven laws of science.

2nd Law of Thermodynamics as it applies to entropy is that things naturally go from a state of order towards disorder (entropy increases ).
Macroevolution places the mass and energy of the entire universe in to a spec so small that it "approaches zero"/cannot be measured. Their hypothesis says this matter and energy that came into existence on its own exploded. Ever since, that explosion has been creating more and more complex and orderly matter and energy like human beings.

I trust that you realize that recent science has cast great doubt on the universal applicability of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. It, like many other scientific "laws" seems to be a generalization not an absolute fact. That is, it is a good guideline and can be used to make predictions, but be aware that there are unusual circumstances in which it does not apply.

 

[rewriter]

What about Archaeology?

There is a ton of information in archaeology that establishes the house of David.

Many kings in Israel have been accepted as historically valid through archaeology.

Key discoveries span several fundamental areas of ancient history:

Extra-Biblical Inscriptions: Monumental stones provide undeniable historical proof for ancient Israel's royal dynasties. The Tel Dan Stele (9th century BCE) explicitly references the "House of David". The Mesha Stele (840 BCE) recounts conflicts between Moab and Israel's King Omri, and the Kurkh Monoliths name King Ahab of Israel. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

The Kingdom of Judah: Sites like Khirbet Qeiyafa (dating to the early 10th century BCE) provide evidence of a fortified, organized urban administration in the time traditionally associated with King David, featuring monumental gates and early Hebrew inscriptions.

Assyrian and Babylonian Sieges: Archaeological excavations at cities like Lachish have uncovered arrowheads, siege ramps, and mass destruction layers that perfectly match the Assyrian conquest of Judah by King Sennacherib, as recorded in biblical accounts. [1, 2]

Everyday Life and Culture: Excavations across the region (such as the four-room pillared houses common in hill country) show that early Israelites were historically rooted, adapting to their environment through terraced farming and village-based economies. Unique discoveries—such as 7th-century BCE royal estate toilets and ivory furniture fragments in Jerusalem—shed light on the elite wealth and craftsmanship described in the Book of Kings.

Israel existed in the middle east over three thousand years ago and that is a historical fact.

The first definitive archaeological discoveries supporting the historicity of ancient Israel appeared in the late 19th century, with subsequent major discoveries in the late 20th century providing direct evidence for the Davidic dynasty and the historical kingdoms of Israel and Judah.

Archaeology uses scientific processes to establish the dates and authenticity of sites in Israel.

Nor would I reject modern medicine which is making inroads into many diseases that have plagued mankind through history.

I fully accept the advent of computers, AI, mobile phones, GPS, powerful software, e.t.c.

Well of course people accept the science that either supports or at least does not directly challenge their beliefs, especially if it is convenient to their lifestyle, but any science that challenges what they want to believe must be of Satan.

 

[DeanM]

Without a quote I am not sure what you think is the correct definition of evolution.

You know what I think the definition is.

Well of course people accept the science that either supports or at least does not directly challenge their beliefs, especially if it is convenient to their lifestyle, but any science that challenges what they want to believe must be of Satan.

Some will believe anything unless it has to do with scripture.

 

[GWH]

You know what I think the definition is.

Some will believe anything unless it has to do with scripture.

I am not a mind reader, nor do I like guessing games, but I will ask,
what is your opinion of theistic evolution?

 

[DeanM]

I am not a mind reader, nor do I like guessing games, but I will ask,
what is your opinion of theistic evolution?

I dont see it written that God created an ooze and called it man made in His own image. Was Adam the only monkey that turned into a human? Must be if God had to make him a mate.

 

[GWH]

I dont see it written that God created an ooze and called it man made in His own image. Was Adam the only monkey that turned into a human? Must be if God had to make him a mate.

Nor do you see that sculptors add water to the clay.
Do Adam and animals have similar DNA?
God must not have made you with the gift of logical inference.

 

[DeanM]

Nor do you see that sculptors add water to the clay.
Do Adam and animals have similar DNA?
God must not have made you with the gift of logical inference.

Im not smart enough to believe in evolution and aliens.

 

[rewriter]

I dont see it written that God created an ooze and called it man made in His own image. Was Adam the only monkey that turned into a human? Must be if God had to make him a mate.

Then to follow your logic, humanity is the result of incest as Abel, Cain and Seth would have had only their own sisters to wed. Now if Adam and Eve were not the first humans but rather a special couple chosen to be the ancestors of God's special people then the problem vanishes, but so does your argument.

 

[DeanM]

Then to follow your logic, humanity is the result of incest as Abel, Cain and Seth would have had only their own sisters to wed. Now if Adam and Eve were not the first humans but rather a special couple chosen to be the ancestors of God's special people then the problem vanishes, but so does your argument.

Im not smart enough to believe anything taught in institutes of higher learning. Or is it gullable enough?

 

[rewriter]

You know what I think the definition is.

Some will believe anything unless it has to do with scripture.

And some choose to decide what is true then look at the evidence. And this group includes both those who claim to be believers and unbelievers. Do you seek out the evidence, or have you decided that YOUR understanding of scripture is true and ignore any evidence to the contrary.

 

[DeanM]

And some choose to decide what is true then look at the evidence. And this group includes both those who claim to be believers and unbelievers. Do you seek out the evidence, or have you decided that YOUR understanding of scripture is true and ignore any evidence to the contrary.

I am smart enough to know the smell of a rat when a few people recently show up on a site and start jabbering evolution, aliens and how jews are the cause of the worlds problem. Show me the missing link. Oh thats right.

 

[rewriter]

Im not smart enough to believe anything taught in institutes of higher learning. Or is it gullable enough?

Oh dear, and I thought that you read the scriptures. You do know that the translations are largely done by people who teach in institutes of higher learning aren't you? Thus if you do not believe what they teach, you must not believe what you read in the scripture.

 

[DeanM]

Oh dear, and I thought that you read the scriptures. You do know that the translations are largely done by people who teach in institutes of higher learning aren't you? Thus if you do not believe what they teach, you must not believe what you read in the scripture.

your name says it all. i have to go fill my dinosaur feeders and dino bath now. enjoy.

 

[biblestudent78]

Okay. Re #1: IMO "speculation" means an educated guess, and information gleaned from the Hubble telescope indicates the best guess is that the universe began with a "bang" that will never collapse and be repeated. Hence, the universe is unique.

2. Re the Sumerians: Abraham came from that neck of the woods.

3. Re immortality: anyone who values life would want it to continue indefinitely, and the resurrection of Jesus is most believable/has the best evidence (cf. the PP).

4. Re Revelation: I view it as an attempt to apply various OT prophecies to the parousia of Christ in Judgment (Heb. 9:27-28), which does indeed have the problematic tone you cited, making harmonization with the rest of the NT difficult if viewed as normative. I view it--like the OT--as NOT normative but rather needing to be interpreted in light of the NT Gospel, including the other writings attributed to John, which teach that God is love (John 3:16, 1John 4:7-2. Vwet==

 

[biblestudent78]

GWH
2. Very insightful about Abram. Also both the wives of Jacob were Sumerians from Haran.
4. You don't get to duck Revelation. The Locust-Scorpions of Chapter 9: Often considered the most terrifying creatures in Revelation, these demonic beings are released from the abyss to torment anyone without the seal of God. They resemble warhorses with crowns of gold, human faces, and the teeth of lions. For five months, they inflict agonizing, venomous stings so severe that victims "will seek death but will not find it" (Revelation 9:6).The Cosmic Violence in Chapters 15–16: These chapters detail the Seven Bowls of God's wrath, which represent unmitigated destruction. The narrative pulls no punches, describing agonizing sores, seas and rivers turned to undrinkable blood, scorching heat that burns human flesh, absolute darkness, and a global earthquake that flattens every city on earth, topped with 100-pound hailstones.The Gruesome Carnage of Armageddon (Chapter 19): Perhaps the most graphic imagery occurs when the armies of the earth gather to fight, only to be slaughtered. An angel invites all the birds of the sky to "gather for the great supper of God, to eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty" (Revelation 19:17-18). It is a brutal, visceral scene of mass devastation.The Lake of Fire (Chapter 20 & 21): The finality of the narrative is merciless for those whose names are not in the Book of Life, as well as for "the cowardly" and "liars", who face the "second death" in a lake of burning sulfur

 

[rewriter]

your name says it all. i have to go fill my dinosaur feeders and dino bath now. enjoy.

While you are doing those tasks be certain the thank God for the heaven-sent device that allows you to communicate with the computers that were invented by scholars at those institutions of higher learning that you are not stupid or gullible enough to trust. You would not want to use technology developed by them.