How many "comings" of Jesus after the advent?
- Thread starter Psalm1
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QUOTE
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
The people who died in Christ are with him now.
Apples <> oranges.
All saints dying are with the Lord as you say.
Reread Rev 6
Martyrs are confined to under the altar. And told to rest until they're number is fulfill
However, we see the inumerable number that are martyred in the tribulation in heaven. And they're in the general population of heaven.
So the martyrs number have been fulfilled at that point because he told those under the altar "until your number has been fulfilled."
So all that that you're trying to say does not fit.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
The people who died in Christ are with him now.
Apples <> oranges.
All saints dying are with the Lord as you say.
Reread Rev 6
Martyrs are confined to under the altar. And told to rest until they're number is fulfill
However, we see the inumerable number that are martyred in the tribulation in heaven. And they're in the general population of heaven.
So the martyrs number have been fulfilled at that point because he told those under the altar "until your number has been fulfilled."
So all that that you're trying to say does not fit.
That's like trying to say Jesus taking his bride to heaven in mat 25 is the same as him coming after Jacob's trouble on millions of hoses to kill and slaughter and those 2 obvious different comings are exactly the same thing.
Or that the angels in Acts 1 were totally deluded when they prophesied Jesus would return as they saw him leave.
Reread the second coming of rev 19.
Are you aware that he comes on millions of horses that blacken in the sky?
And that He comes as a Warrior to slaughter millions of people.?
You think that's the exact same thing as vividly described an acts 1?
Or in first thes chapter 4 ?
In revelation, 14 verse 14?
in Matthew 25?..where the groom comes for a bride, in an act of intimacy.?
And they go to the bridal chamber heaven and shut the door.?
Doctrine can not be so important as to change the bible.
Or that the angels in Acts 1 were totally deluded when they prophesied Jesus would return as they saw him leave.
Reread the second coming of rev 19.
Are you aware that he comes on millions of horses that blacken in the sky?
And that He comes as a Warrior to slaughter millions of people.?
You think that's the exact same thing as vividly described an acts 1?
Or in first thes chapter 4 ?
In revelation, 14 verse 14?
in Matthew 25?..where the groom comes for a bride, in an act of intimacy.?
And they go to the bridal chamber heaven and shut the door.?
Doctrine can not be so important as to change the bible.
Thanks Psalm 1, for your question about Christ's coming and about whether it is several comings in reality. There are quite a few scriptures pertaining to the idea of Christ's coming. For example, a seldom-quoted one is: "Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth. "
The actual form of his coming is emphasized in quite a few verses but in a number of ways, emphasizing different aspects of the concept of coming.
The idea of his coming is further complicated by the parable nature of scripture (Psalm 78:1-2, Mark 4:34). It is not always clear to me that those who read the verses as surface texts are interpreting their true meanings. Indeed, it would be essential to translate the surface text in light of its parable nature to get at the real meanings.
For example, the white horse in Revelation is a picture of the true believers, since Jerusalem is a picture of true believers, and the Bible says that God has made Jerusalem his horse in battle. The air mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4 is a parable word for heaven, not physical air, so it is a parable word. The clouds mentioned could easily be describing the great cloud of witnesses, rather than cumulonimbus, and so forth.
We know that Jesus already came from heaven to earth, going to the cross, and to then be resurrected. So, that is a distinct coming of Christ. We also know that he then gave the Holy Spirit to believers.
You have mentioned that you consider his coming for his bride to be one of the comings. I assume this is based on the parable of the virgins- Behold the bridegroom cometh. You then mentioned Revelation 14 as being another coming, and strictly Jewish, and it seems you may have mentioned this as meaning cultural Jews only. I do not see it that way. I see it as parable language for all who are in Christ. Neither do I see this as a surface number 144,000. Rather, the number is empasizing that all in Christ are to be thought of as a part of his tribes, his family Israel. Mounts and mountains in the Bible are pictures of kingdoms having a spiritual nature. For example, when Jesus sat down upon the mount of Olives, it was a picture of how he is the spiritual authority over the believers (who are the olives, if you will). Mount Zion is simply another way of describing Christ's kingdom. We find that in Rev 14 that you are mentioning.
You did mention his second coming in power and glory. I think that this is likely a valid example of his coming, but I do not see how this means that there is a separate coming for 144,000 cultural Jews.
In a certain sense, you could say that the Bible gives us tens or hundreds of even thousands of viewpoints of single ideas. For example, salvation is viewed in many verses to give a better understanding of it. While I would not want to call it many salvations, I would be happy to call it many Bible views on the one salvation, to fill out people's understanding of it.
The actual form of his coming is emphasized in quite a few verses but in a number of ways, emphasizing different aspects of the concept of coming.
The idea of his coming is further complicated by the parable nature of scripture (Psalm 78:1-2, Mark 4:34). It is not always clear to me that those who read the verses as surface texts are interpreting their true meanings. Indeed, it would be essential to translate the surface text in light of its parable nature to get at the real meanings.
For example, the white horse in Revelation is a picture of the true believers, since Jerusalem is a picture of true believers, and the Bible says that God has made Jerusalem his horse in battle. The air mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4 is a parable word for heaven, not physical air, so it is a parable word. The clouds mentioned could easily be describing the great cloud of witnesses, rather than cumulonimbus, and so forth.
We know that Jesus already came from heaven to earth, going to the cross, and to then be resurrected. So, that is a distinct coming of Christ. We also know that he then gave the Holy Spirit to believers.
You have mentioned that you consider his coming for his bride to be one of the comings. I assume this is based on the parable of the virgins- Behold the bridegroom cometh. You then mentioned Revelation 14 as being another coming, and strictly Jewish, and it seems you may have mentioned this as meaning cultural Jews only. I do not see it that way. I see it as parable language for all who are in Christ. Neither do I see this as a surface number 144,000. Rather, the number is empasizing that all in Christ are to be thought of as a part of his tribes, his family Israel. Mounts and mountains in the Bible are pictures of kingdoms having a spiritual nature. For example, when Jesus sat down upon the mount of Olives, it was a picture of how he is the spiritual authority over the believers (who are the olives, if you will). Mount Zion is simply another way of describing Christ's kingdom. We find that in Rev 14 that you are mentioning.
You did mention his second coming in power and glory. I think that this is likely a valid example of his coming, but I do not see how this means that there is a separate coming for 144,000 cultural Jews.
In a certain sense, you could say that the Bible gives us tens or hundreds of even thousands of viewpoints of single ideas. For example, salvation is viewed in many verses to give a better understanding of it. While I would not want to call it many salvations, I would be happy to call it many Bible views on the one salvation, to fill out people's understanding of it.
“so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;
and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”
Hebrews 9:28 KJV
“And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
Acts 1:10-
They are all teaching about the same things they all teach about Jesus death and resurrection they all teach about his return from heaven at the end of the world when all the dead are raised up and judged they aren’t all telling us about different things . But adding details to each others account
Like this Jesus said this in the gospel
“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”
Matthew 16:27 KJV
more about that time
“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:
but the righteous into life eternal.”
Matthew 25:31-32, 34, 40-41, 45-46 KJV
More about that
“For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.”
Luke 9:26 KJV
More about that from an apostle of Jesus
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 KJV
more about that
“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day.”
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 KJV
The bi ke teaches that Jesus came tonisrsel born a man as a lamb to be sacrofoces for the worlds sin one time only
and that the last day of this world he will return from heaven once to raise all the dead judge them and gather his people for the new eternal worlds he’s promised.
more details about that day
“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:
for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”
1 Corinthians 15:51-53 KJV
they probably studied the doctrine and undersrsnd the people who wrote the Bible weren’t telling us about ten different lords or ten plans of salvation or ten names or doctrines ect but just the one doctrine for all which clearly teaches that the messiah was born li bed a sinless life suffered and died for our sins eas raised up from the dead and taken to the throne of heaven until the day he returns to initiate the new things coming to pass and gather his people from this world for the new
“so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;
and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”
Hebrews 9:28 KJV
Jesus was taken into heaven
“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
Mark 16:19 KJV
Until the time comes for his return and restitution of all things new
“and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”
Acts 3:20-21 KJV
tbat last part is true he’s been saying these things since the world began and all the prophets spoke of it
theres just one doctrine is the thing they are all teaching about the same things Jesus told us in the gospel like about his return at the end of the world to gether his people and judge the world in righteousness
“As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
Matthew 13:40-43 KJV
the confusion is when we think there are more than one doctrine in the Bible pertaining to all the subjects we discuss there’s just one consistent doctrine always Jesus came and bore the worlds sin as a lamb and wiop retirn as the righteous judge and lion of Judah
and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”
Hebrews 9:28 KJV
“And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
Acts 1:10-
They are all teaching about the same things they all teach about Jesus death and resurrection they all teach about his return from heaven at the end of the world when all the dead are raised up and judged they aren’t all telling us about different things . But adding details to each others account
Like this Jesus said this in the gospel
“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”
Matthew 16:27 KJV
more about that time
“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:
but the righteous into life eternal.”
Matthew 25:31-32, 34, 40-41, 45-46 KJV
More about that
“For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.”
Luke 9:26 KJV
More about that from an apostle of Jesus
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 KJV
more about that
“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day.”
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 KJV
The bi ke teaches that Jesus came tonisrsel born a man as a lamb to be sacrofoces for the worlds sin one time only
and that the last day of this world he will return from heaven once to raise all the dead judge them and gather his people for the new eternal worlds he’s promised.
more details about that day
“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:
for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”
1 Corinthians 15:51-53 KJV
they probably studied the doctrine and undersrsnd the people who wrote the Bible weren’t telling us about ten different lords or ten plans of salvation or ten names or doctrines ect but just the one doctrine for all which clearly teaches that the messiah was born li bed a sinless life suffered and died for our sins eas raised up from the dead and taken to the throne of heaven until the day he returns to initiate the new things coming to pass and gather his people from this world for the new
“so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;
and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”
Hebrews 9:28 KJV
Jesus was taken into heaven
“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
Mark 16:19 KJV
Until the time comes for his return and restitution of all things new
“and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”
Acts 3:20-21 KJV
tbat last part is true he’s been saying these things since the world began and all the prophets spoke of it
theres just one doctrine is the thing they are all teaching about the same things Jesus told us in the gospel like about his return at the end of the world to gether his people and judge the world in righteousness
“As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
Matthew 13:40-43 KJV
the confusion is when we think there are more than one doctrine in the Bible pertaining to all the subjects we discuss there’s just one consistent doctrine always Jesus came and bore the worlds sin as a lamb and wiop retirn as the righteous judge and lion of Judah
This will happen when he comes back the one time
“I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;”
2 Timothy 4:1 KJV
“knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
….The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. ( that will happen when Jesus returns the one time )
…..Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
2 Peter 3:3-4, 9-10, 13 KJV
tbats gonna happen when he returns the one time
“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day.”
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 KJV
Same day jesus told about
“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”
Matthew 16:27 KJV
“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
John 12:48
same day as this
“For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.”
Luke 9:26 KJV
i think probably some don’t understand so they think there’s a whole bunch of times when Jesus returns not too sure the bible teaches tbat he came one time in the flesh to bear sin and will return in his glory to judge destroy and redeem the new creation
“I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;”
2 Timothy 4:1 KJV
“knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
….The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. ( that will happen when Jesus returns the one time )
…..Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
2 Peter 3:3-4, 9-10, 13 KJV
tbats gonna happen when he returns the one time
“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day.”
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 KJV
Same day jesus told about
“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”
Matthew 16:27 KJV
“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
John 12:48
same day as this
“For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.”
Luke 9:26 KJV
i think probably some don’t understand so they think there’s a whole bunch of times when Jesus returns not too sure the bible teaches tbat he came one time in the flesh to bear sin and will return in his glory to judge destroy and redeem the new creation