How Much Would YOU Pay to Keep Your Parents And/Or Grandparents From Living in Sin?

[NightTwister]

I know the "Is marriage still legal to God even when you've chosen to do it outside of the law?" question has been asked frequently, probably from the time marriage was made something legally regulated by government.

I don't see a "legal" requirement for marriage since the Mosaic law when "the church" and "the state" were the same. If asked, I would marry them without requiring them to register with the state.

I do know that the financial issues are of grave concern.

This is a real thing that the state is aware of and has decided not to fix.

 

[zeroturbulence]

Another resident who lives there leads a Bible study group -- and he has told them that they are living in sin.

Now for myself, and this is just me, but the first thing I'm thinking is, "How much... uh... are two 85-year-olds with disabilities doing?" But as far as I'm concerned, it's none of my business, and something between the God and the people involved.

I understand that the Bible class leader believes he's doing his Christian duty, calling out others for their sins.

But I wonder what his approach would be if God told him, "Ok, you've convicted them -- now it's YOUR responsibility to help them with their living costs."

After all, 1 John 3:17 says, "If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but closes their heart to them, the love of God cannot be in that person."

Growing up in the church, it's always bothered me that I saw so many people giving others what they thought was their calling, and giving what they felt people needed -- a stern lecture and rebuke -- but never actually lifted a finger when it came to helping that person. They had all the words to offer because words are free -- but what would happen if God required them to give something that cost them?

My heart really does go out to this couple. I've heard of many instances of older people (I'm thinking 60's and above particularly) who want companionship but have chosen to live with each other and not marry because it will affect their income (loss of government benefits, higher taxes, etc.) Another pastor I admire has said some of the most challenging ministry work he has to do is confront older single/divorced adults who believe that "celibacy is good for kids... but I'm a grown adult (and that no longer applies to me.)"

I understand that we are not to make compromises. I understand that we are to obey God's commands no matter what the cost.

But what would you do if it was YOUR mother, father, grandmother, grandfather, etc. who was or wanted to "live in sin"?

Most especially if it was going to cost YOU as a result?

For instance:

* Would you take on extra hours/work/jobs to help pay for their expenses? (This would be to either help them keep their own place, or help them to make up for any lost benefits when they marry.)

* Would you have them move in with you, rather than let them move in with a partner?

* Would you help them with the things they needed (bringing meals, helping at home, etc.) if living separate from their partner meant they needed more aid? (Especially if they are handicapped, have special needs, need someone to remind them to take medicines, etc.)

* Would you provide transportation, if that was an issue?

I know many of you out there are already doing all of this -- and more -- and I pray God blesses you abundantly for it.

The real point of this discussion is that it's easy to tell someone that they're sinning.

But in turn, I want to ask, "What would you do if God then actively, and ongoing, required you to pay for/provide/do what it takes to help keep that person from sinning?"


I would love to hear your thoughts, especially from anyone who has or is actively dealing with this.

That man should have minded his own business.

(James 4:11-12 NIV):
Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. And if you judge the law, you are not a practitioner of the law, but a judge of it. / There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

 

[seoulsearch]

That man should have minded his own business.

(James 4:11-12 NIV):
Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. And if you judge the law, you are not a practitioner of the law, but a judge of it. / There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

Thank you so much for bringing up this passage!

Something else I was thinking about, I don't know what the couple involved identify as (whether they claim to be Christian or not -- I think so, but I'm not entirely sure.)

If the couple aren't even believers, from what I understand of Biblical teaching, believers aren't necessarily meant to police unbelievers.

And if they are believers?

I personally think they should talk with a qualified pastor with whom they can share personal info (if there's no sexual contact going on, I can't see a problem,) but that's just my own opinion.

 

[Tall_Timbers]

Both members of this couple have mobility issues and help each other with basic household tasks, as well as enjoying having someone there instead of having to be alone.

Another resident who lives there leads a Bible study group -- and he has told them that they are living in sin.

Now for myself, and this is just me, but the first thing I'm thinking is, "How much... uh... are two 85-year-olds with disabilities doing?" But as far as I'm concerned, it's none of my business, and something between the God and the people involved.

I understand that the Bible class leader believes he's doing his Christian duty, calling out others for their sins.

I don't see living under the same roof as living in sin. If they're doing the hanky panky, then yes, they're living in sin.

When I was younger I rented out the basement of a home owned by a female. At some point a mutual friend was trying to "set us up" and I warned that I would have to move out if our relationship changed from what it was at the time, which was 100% platonic.

So if the folks are living like brother and sister and are saving thousands a month, good for them.

Since I'm getting up there in years I've looked into senior group homes. One cost mid $4000s and another mid $5000s for a one person apartment. I'd gladly share a 2 person unit with someone of either gender if I thought we'd get along all right.

 

[Lynx]

I don't see living under the same roof as living in sin. If they're doing the hanky panky, then yes, they're living in sin.

When I was younger I rented out the basement of a home owned by a female. At some point a mutual friend was trying to "set us up" and I warned that I would have to move out if our relationship changed from what it was at the time, which was 100% platonic.

So if the folks are living like brother and sister and are saving thousands a month, good for them.

Since I'm getting up there in years I've looked into senior group homes. One cost mid $4000s and another mid $5000s for a one person apartment. I'd gladly share a 2 person unit with someone of either gender if I thought we'd get along all right.

Yeah, about that... That brings up another question.

If he and she are living together and assumed to be living in sin, would a male roommate make you an assumed gay couple? It only seems fair to make the same assumption across the board.

I mean, they say it often enough about Bert and Ernie...

 

[Mem]

I remember Dr. Pat Robertson, the founder of CBN, and who had a background law (didn't he?), answered a similar question considering this couple to be married by common law (even though not every state recognizes common law marriages).
A (Christian-friendly) rabbi, whose broadcasts I often tune in on, equated money with blood (currency and 'blood current') and bread (often being called 'bread' or 'dough') and by association, a life flow. And so, the government 'bleeding you dry' would have a more significant meaning towards how they 'steward' the citizens' wellbeing. I mean, it seems rather counterproductive if the goal is to sustain 'families' if there is more incentive to be single.

Anyway, as I view it, this exampled case, imo, doesn't show two vampires draining the villagers of their life force.

 

[seoulsearch]

I should emphasize that I do not know anything about the couple in the original post, except for the bare bones information I shared. I don't know what their exact financial or spiritual status is, and I don't know what they are deciding to do. I do know that several residents there have had to move out because they could no longer afford it.

And I find the topics raised in the thread to be interesting, albeit heartbreaking.

I am very concerned about our elderly. I've heard many stories of older people living in trailer parks (once seen as one of the most affordable options,) and the entire parks are being sold to corporations to turn into apartment complexes -- leaving the residents with nowhere to go.

I've also heard of several incidences in which older people have paid off their houses, but can no longer afford the insurance and property taxes, leaving them homeless when their houses are seized. As costs rise, their fixed incomes won't cover it, and it's not like many of these people can work full-time or drive for Uber to make up for rising costs.

This is also why my heart always gravitates towards long-time Christians. Life is hard, and I want to know what's happened and how people found their way of following the Lord through 50, 70, 80 years+. New Christians are great of course, but I feel more drawn to those who have been Christians for say 10 or more years. I've known some people who became Christians and were very on fire for the first 2-5 years, but talk to them after 15 years, and after much loss, hardship, and struggle, they've gone back to the world.

I'm not saying this in judgment at all. I don't even have the excuse of not knowing God at any point in my life -- the sins I've committed in my own life haven't been out of ignorance, but straight-up sin. But as far as whom I'm drawn as far as other believers go, I'm just built more for the marathon runners rather than the sprinters.

I also want to see how people react when the shoe is on the other foot. After my divorce, even the few well-meaning Christians who saw me as being able to remarry, would give me a plethora of passages and platitudes, pat me on the head, and tell me I was just a baby. It would have helped me a lot more if the marrieds who tried to counsel me also acknowledged that they too might be single someday as well.

Enough time has gone by that some of these same people are now just as single as me, whether through their own divorces or God calling their spouse home before them.

And I'm not trying to sound cold-hearted, but I wish I could go back and ask them how all the things they told me are working out for them.

I want to see how they react now that they're wearing the same pair of lead shoes I was wearing for so long, because I am most interested in people who walk the walk they talk -- if and when their turn comes. I want to know that they weren't just blowing smoke in my face, but are living out what they told me as well.

Most people will say the number one thing that turns them off from church is hypocrisy, and I would wholeheartedly agree with that.

I'm always trying to find those who are real and genuine, because I know they'll help me become more so as well.

 

[seoulsearch]

And as a side note to my post about asking one question in my thread titles while bringing up a different spin in the introductory post...

I was talking with my Keep-In-Touch group this morning about a certain dilemma I was having...

And someone mentioned that it made me bi-curious. I was joking about how much fun it would be to post a thread saying something like, "How My Adventures in Experimenting With Being Bi-Curious Are Going..."

But anyone who bothers to read the first post would quickly find out that subject of the thread is my on-going "Should I or shouldn't I?" debate about whether I should get BIFOCALS (as in, bifocal glasses.)

It sure would be entertaining. The self-appointed self-righteous -- who usually only read the titles -- would come in with Bibles swinging at full-force -- then be perplexed as to why no one is paying attention to their righteous judgments.

And they wouldn't understand that it would be because everyone else was too busy talking about the REAL (bi) focus of the ACTUAL topic at hand, clearly presented in the original post.

After nearly 16 years, we've seen this happen time and time again, and I have to admit, it makes me chuckle every single time. It's always amusing to see the assumptions of someone who is so anxious to preach their own message, they have absolutely no time or interest to read what (God forbid) another human being has to say. Unless, of course, it's to further beat them down with their own perfection.

Ah. I miss former times when I could actually get away with writing threads almost as extreme as this Bi-Curious About Bifocals idea.

But nowadays, I'm older and think things through a little more -- and I don't want anyone out there searching for a good Christian website to find something about "Bi-Curiosity" to come up in their results.

Sigh.

Alas, I shall just sit back and pine for the good old days of my reckless youth!

 

[enril]

I know the "Is marriage still legal to God even when you've chosen to do it outside of the law?" question has been asked frequently, probably from the time marriage was made something legally regulated by government.

I don't know the answer.

I do know that the financial issues are of grave concern.

money money money.
everyone wants money.
but the only way to get money....
Is to take it.

"If everyone gets government money, no one gets government money."

 

[Karlon]

absolutely nothing!

 

[Edith]

Why did he say it ouwritely like that. It was better to acknowledge it's a good thing and encourage pastoral bénédiction if that is too necessary.

Rebuke does not go without gentleness.

 

[Tazzo]

For two reasons this would be so hard for me to comprehend, first, I know my mom would not want to do that, nor back in the days did my grandparents. Second, cost of living and housing, welfare, etc are so different in here...

$660 or more a month for health insurance

Health insurance almost $700 a MONTH?? For a year, maybe ($533 or $335 depending are you willing to pay $280 when something happens, only once in 12 months <- that is for my aged one, actually for me if I were to take a insurance), but I guess your pay there must be much higher too.


So, would that hypothetical parent/grandparent, want to live with someone (in what way? just roommates to save money.. or more in some other way?), then I cannot really do much if they would not want to. I could not force anyone against their will.. But preferably I would help in one way or in other if it is about the money and not affording to live alone.
At least ask or talk about the fact of living together with someone without a marriage (if my hypothetical parent/grandparent would be christian), as I know my non-hypothetical mom would do with me if I were to think of living with a man without a marriage.

And of course I would help my mom out anyway with her living if she would not be able to do so herself, either getting her to stay with me or something, but anyway, things are different in here.. even tho I know elderly people in here too that barely survive to buy foods and meds, rent etc, if that would be my mom, I would help her.

Also I might come from such a conservative family, that to me it is bizarre to think my relatives (elderly ones, I don't count my cousins in this) would want to live with someone without marriage.. Everyone (from my mom's side, I don't really know my dad's side, there maybe are two living relatives?) is christian (elderly relatives, not all my cousins, unfortunately), and I know they would not want to live that way.. Or then my family is just oldfashioned, dunno..

But as for the sinning part, I don't think it would stop the sin, it is everyones choise whether to sin or not to sin, they still might continue sin in their hearts, wanting that kind of relationship with someone without marriage (why so, because of the money? Is the money or relationship greater than God, to not to try to find another way, to ask help?). That I cannot change.

I've been around older people all my life, and have seen first hand how the death of a spouse after 60+ years of marriage devastates people. They often lose their entire community, along with their spouse (married friends no longer see them as having anything in common and shun them; some marrieds are afraid that this now-single person will steal away their own spouse.) The person left behind is often abandoned and practically left for dead, and this was right in the middle of God-fearing churches.

Oh, that does not seem like a real friend to do so. To shun them or be afraid they might steal their spouce?? Christians? I have not heard this around the widows and widowers I know in church or with the ones that are not in church and are not christians.. I am quite shocked by this...

 

[seoulsearch]

For two reasons this would be so hard for me to comprehend, first, I know my mom would not want to do that, nor back in the days did my grandparents. Second, cost of living and housing, welfare, etc are so different in here...

Health insurance almost $700 a MONTH?? For a year, maybe ($533 or $335 depending are you willing to pay $280 when something happens, only once in 12 months <- that is for my aged one, actually for me if I were to take a insurance), but I guess your pay there must be much higher too.

So, would that hypothetical parent/grandparent, want to live with someone (in what way? just roommates to save money.. or more in some other way?), then I cannot really do much if they would not want to. I could not force anyone against their will.. But preferably I would help in one way or in other if it is about the money and not affording to live alone.
At least ask or talk about the fact of living together with someone without a marriage (if my hypothetical parent/grandparent would be christian), as I know my non-hypothetical mom would do with me if I were to think of living with a man without a marriage.

And of course I would help my mom out anyway with her living if she would not be able to do so herself, either getting her to stay with me or something, but anyway, things are different in here.. even tho I know elderly people in here too that barely survive to buy foods and meds, rent etc, if that would be my mom, I would help her.

Also I might come from such a conservative family, that to me it is bizarre to think my relatives (elderly ones, I don't count my cousins in this) would want to live with someone without marriage.. Everyone (from my mom's side, I don't really know my dad's side, there maybe are two living relatives?) is christian (elderly relatives, not all my cousins, unfortunately), and I know they would not want to live that way.. Or then my family is just oldfashioned, dunno..

But as for the sinning part, I don't think it would stop the sin, it is everyones choise whether to sin or not to sin, they still might continue sin in their hearts, wanting that kind of relationship with someone without marriage (why so, because of the money? Is the money or relationship greater than God, to not to try to find another way, to ask help?). That I cannot change.

Oh, that does not seem like a real friend to do so. To shun them or be afraid they might steal their spouce?? Christians? I have not heard this around the widows and widowers I know in church or with the ones that are not in church and are not christians.. I am quite shocked by this...

Hi @Tazzo,

I love hearing about life for other Christians around the world.

As for the eye-watering health insurance prices -- welcome to the USA. And $660 a month is only for the "bronze" package. I don't know if it's different for different states in the USA, but insurance companies usually have bronze, silver, and gold level packages. You have to pay more if you want more flexibility and a wider range of doctors and hospitals you could go to.

For example, I wanted to stay with a current doctor who moved to another network, but it would require a much more expensive plan -- so, I've had to find another doctor (which always feels like starting over again.)

Wages here are definitely not keeping up with costs. Medical issues are the number one cause of bankruptcy in the USA. Even millionaires can lose everything due to insane medical costs.

As for married friends abandoning lifelong married friends who become single or divorced -- I think it's a bigger problem than what most churches will talk about. No one wants to admit that they are shunning someone, even a long-time friend, because their social status has changed or because they are afraid that a now-single person in their circle will steal their spouse.

I know someone who went through this, and it was quite a culture shock; I was in another church in which a large percentage were single or divorced (ages 40 and up, usually with kids,) so the singles had to kind of band together, because the marrieds didn't know how to relate to singles or socialize with them.

One of the reasons I write threads here is because I feel very passionate about bringing up troubling things I've seen being part of church circles all my life, but they are always swept under the rug. I'm sure I can't be the only one who's noticed -- and wants to try to help those who are being affected.

I recently heard one of the best sermons I've ever heard in my life (dedicated solely to the subject of singleness.) I've heard thousands of sermons in my life and I don't think I've ever heard an entire sermon completely devoted to singleness.

The married pastor said projections are showing that the day is soon coming where at least 60% of people in churches will be single.

He straight-up said that if churches don't learn how to meet the needs of singles, they aren't going to have a church. I heard another pastor say years ago that if the church didn't adapt to ministering to singles, they would be missing half the harvest.

It's going to be interesting to see how things play out as this evolves.

 

[enril]

Hey Everyone,

Every married person in church will tell a single person to get married. And everyone knows the most important part of 2 becoming 1 is the vow, "'Til death do us part."

The part that's always bothered me is that NO ONE in church talks about "when death finally comes, and what was once 1 flesh -- is now literally ripped in half."

I've been around older people all my life, and have seen first hand how the death of a spouse after 60+ years of marriage devastates people. They often lose their entire community, along with their spouse (married friends no longer see them as having anything in common and shun them; some marrieds are afraid that this now-single person will steal away their own spouse.) The person left behind is often abandoned and practically left for dead, and this was right in the middle of God-fearing churches.

I knew one elderly man who called himself "an orphan" after his wife died, which is heart-breaking but an all too-often reality for many formerly married who are left behind.

A family member recently told me about a situation in which two people at a local retirement home, both age 85 and left behind (their spouses had died,) decided that they liked each other, became a couple, and moved in together -- partially to save on costs. The facility is eye-wateringly expensive, with the rent starting at about $5000 a month, plus an initial fee of several thousand more. Living together would cost them about $6000 together ($5000 + $1000 for having an extra person in the same place,) and save about $4000 a month. Yes, I know it's an outrageous cost either way, but this is the reality of the region where I live.

Both members of this couple have mobility issues and help each other with basic household tasks, as well as enjoying having someone there instead of having to be alone.

Another resident who lives there leads a Bible study group -- and he has told them that they are living in sin.

Now for myself, and this is just me, but the first thing I'm thinking is, "How much... uh... are two 85-year-olds with disabilities doing?" But as far as I'm concerned, it's none of my business, and something between the God and the people involved.

I understand that the Bible class leader believes he's doing his Christian duty, calling out others for their sins.

But I wonder what his approach would be if God told him, "Ok, you've convicted them -- now it's YOUR responsibility to help them with their living costs."

After all, 1 John 3:17 says, "If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but closes their heart to them, the love of God cannot be in that person."

Growing up in the church, it's always bothered me that I saw so many people giving others what they thought was their calling, and giving what they felt people needed -- a stern lecture and rebuke -- but never actually lifted a finger when it came to helping that person. They had all the words to offer because words are free -- but what would happen if God required them to give something that cost them?

My heart really does go out to this couple. I've heard of many instances of older people (I'm thinking 60's and above particularly) who want companionship but have chosen to live with each other and not marry because it will affect their income (loss of government benefits, higher taxes, etc.) Another pastor I admire has said some of the most challenging ministry work he has to do is confront older single/divorced adults who believe that "celibacy is good for kids... but I'm a grown adult (and that no longer applies to me.)"

I understand that we are not to make compromises. I understand that we are to obey God's commands no matter what the cost.

But what would you do if it was YOUR mother, father, grandmother, grandfather, etc. who was or wanted to "live in sin"?

Most especially if it was going to cost YOU as a result?

For instance:

* Would you take on extra hours/work/jobs to help pay for their expenses? (This would be to either help them keep their own place, or help them to make up for any lost benefits when they marry.)

* Would you have them move in with you, rather than let them move in with a partner?

* Would you help them with the things they needed (bringing meals, helping at home, etc.) if living separate from their partner meant they needed more aid? (Especially if they are handicapped, have special needs, need someone to remind them to take medicines, etc.)

* Would you provide transportation, if that was an issue?

I know many of you out there are already doing all of this -- and more -- and I pray God blesses you abundantly for it.

The real point of this discussion is that it's easy to tell someone that they're sinning.

But in turn, I want to ask, "What would you do if God then actively, and ongoing, required you to pay for/provide/do what it takes to help keep that person from sinning?"


I would love to hear your thoughts, especially from anyone who has or is actively dealing with this.

in an attempt to bring it back around... I recall it originally being about PARENTS AND/OR GRANDPARENTS not RANDOM OLD PEOPLE. (sorry rops) it is a biblical command to honour and care for your father and mother in their old age. if you ask I will find it.
also exodous 20

 

[Tazzo]

For example, I wanted to stay with a current doctor who moved to another network, but it would require a much more expensive plan -- so, I've had to find another doctor (which always feels like starting over again.)

That would be nice to have a same doctor, I do have same for annual diabetes checkup at public healthcare.. but then for anything else if I need more urgent meeting with our workplace doctor, there is no way that he has any time at least for a month (actually, I don't want to see our assigned doctor anyway...), so I have to pick someone else. Depending on the urgengy of my issue, I can pick the one I want if she is having opening in that range of time..

As for married friends abandoning lifelong married friends who become single or divorced -- I think it's a bigger problem than what most churches will talk about. No one wants to admit that they are shunning someone, even a long-time friend, because their social status has changed or because they are afraid that a now-single person in their circle will steal their spouse.

Maybe this also is about age thing, widows/widowers I know are elderly, not from 40 and up, and I even asked from my mom about this, in her church circles (we don't just go to one church, we go to a few, as well as her friends, and those churches also work together in evangelizing in this town), people don't leave widows out... But also this is a small town, so don't know about bigger ones..

One of the reasons I write threads here is because I feel very passionate about bringing up troubling things I've seen being part of church circles all my life, but they are always swept under the rug. I'm sure I can't be the only one who's noticed -- and wants to try to help those who are being affected.

I am not saying it doens't happen, sure it does. But it to be such a normal thing is weird to me, maybe because for what I have seen in my (and my family) circles in church, I have not seen it.
And it is good to bring those topics up, sure, I have seen some other problems in church that are swept under the rug, or then no one just notices them, except the ones it touches.
And I do love your threads (the serious and the goofy ones too), I have no idea how you have so much energy and skill to write them... and

I was joking about how much fun it would be to post a thread saying something like, "How My Adventures in Experimenting With Being Bi-Curious Are Going..."

But anyone who bothers to read the first post would quickly find out that subject of the thread is my on-going "Should I or shouldn't I?" debate about whether I should get BIFOCALS (as in, bifocal glasses.)

I know some would not swallow these without biting really hard, but I love the play on the words you do on your threads!

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Hey Everyone,

Every married person in church will tell a single person to get married. And everyone knows the most important part of 2 becoming 1 is the vow, "'Til death do us part."

The part that's always bothered me is that NO ONE in church talks about "when death finally comes, and what was once 1 flesh -- is now literally ripped in half."

I've been around older people all my life, and have seen first hand how the death of a spouse after 60+ years of marriage devastates people. They often lose their entire community, along with their spouse (married friends no longer see them as having anything in common and shun them; some marrieds are afraid that this now-single person will steal away their own spouse.) The person left behind is often abandoned and practically left for dead, and this was right in the middle of God-fearing churches.

I knew one elderly man who called himself "an orphan" after his wife died, which is heart-breaking but an all too-often reality for many formerly married who are left behind.

A family member recently told me about a situation in which two people at a local retirement home, both age 85 and left behind (their spouses had died,) decided that they liked each other, became a couple, and moved in together -- partially to save on costs. The facility is eye-wateringly expensive, with the rent starting at about $5000 a month, plus an initial fee of several thousand more. Living together would cost them about $6000 together ($5000 + $1000 for having an extra person in the same place,) and save about $4000 a month. Yes, I know it's an outrageous cost either way, but this is the reality of the region where I live.

Both members of this couple have mobility issues and help each other with basic household tasks, as well as enjoying having someone there instead of having to be alone.

Another resident who lives there leads a Bible study group -- and he has told them that they are living in sin.

Now for myself, and this is just me, but the first thing I'm thinking is, "How much... uh... are two 85-year-olds with disabilities doing?" But as far as I'm concerned, it's none of my business, and something between the God and the people involved.

I understand that the Bible class leader believes he's doing his Christian duty, calling out others for their sins.

But I wonder what his approach would be if God told him, "Ok, you've convicted them -- now it's YOUR responsibility to help them with their living costs."

After all, 1 John 3:17 says, "If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but closes their heart to them, the love of God cannot be in that person."

Growing up in the church, it's always bothered me that I saw so many people giving others what they thought was their calling, and giving what they felt people needed -- a stern lecture and rebuke -- but never actually lifted a finger when it came to helping that person. They had all the words to offer because words are free -- but what would happen if God required them to give something that cost them?

My heart really does go out to this couple. I've heard of many instances of older people (I'm thinking 60's and above particularly) who want companionship but have chosen to live with each other and not marry because it will affect their income (loss of government benefits, higher taxes, etc.) Another pastor I admire has said some of the most challenging ministry work he has to do is confront older single/divorced adults who believe that "celibacy is good for kids... but I'm a grown adult (and that no longer applies to me.)"

I understand that we are not to make compromises. I understand that we are to obey God's commands no matter what the cost.

But what would you do if it was YOUR mother, father, grandmother, grandfather, etc. who was or wanted to "live in sin"?

Most especially if it was going to cost YOU as a result?

For instance:

* Would you take on extra hours/work/jobs to help pay for their expenses? (This would be to either help them keep their own place, or help them to make up for any lost benefits when they marry.)

* Would you have them move in with you, rather than let them move in with a partner?

* Would you help them with the things they needed (bringing meals, helping at home, etc.) if living separate from their partner meant they needed more aid? (Especially if they are handicapped, have special needs, need someone to remind them to take medicines, etc.)

* Would you provide transportation, if that was an issue?

I know many of you out there are already doing all of this -- and more -- and I pray God blesses you abundantly for it.

The real point of this discussion is that it's easy to tell someone that they're sinning.

But in turn, I want to ask, "What would you do if God then actively, and ongoing, required you to pay for/provide/do what it takes to help keep that person from sinning?"


I would love to hear your thoughts, especially from anyone who has or is actively dealing with this.

Personally I don't see the issue. They are adults and room mates. I think some people are so "heavenly minded" they're no earthly good. If you're going to condemn them, then as a church, step up and pay their bills. In my travels there plenty of churches that had a million dollars in their bank accounts. It used to anger me so much. I wanted to say "What are you waiting for? You have a whole community that needs help!! Don't hoard what God has blessed you with!!"

My grandmother took a brain tumor and she came to live with us till she passed. We all helped out, my fathers brothers gave money and we physically took care of her. So either pony up or mind your business. Nothing wrong with what the couple is doing.

 

[seoulsearch]

That would be nice to have a same doctor, I do have same for annual diabetes checkup at public healthcare.. but then for anything else if I need more urgent meeting with our workplace doctor, there is no way that he has any time at least for a month (actually, I don't want to see our assigned doctor anyway...), so I have to pick someone else. Depending on the urgengy of my issue, I can pick the one I want if she is having opening in that range of time..

Maybe this also is about age thing, widows/widowers I know are elderly, not from 40 and up, and I even asked from my mom about this, in her church circles (we don't just go to one church, we go to a few, as well as her friends, and those churches also work together in evangelizing in this town), people don't leave widows out... But also this is a small town, so don't know about bigger ones..

I am not saying it doens't happen, sure it does. But it to be such a normal thing is weird to me, maybe because for what I have seen in my (and my family) circles in church, I have not seen it.
And it is good to bring those topics up, sure, I have seen some other problems in church that are swept under the rug, or then no one just notices them, except the ones it touches.
And I do love your threads (the serious and the goofy ones too), I have no idea how you have so much energy and skill to write them... and

I know some would not swallow these without biting really hard, but I love the play on the words you do on your threads!

Thank you so much for your insights, Tazzo.

As someone in the USA, I sometimes forget how big the world is and I'm always happy to see people here who remind me that we all have unique situations, especially in other countries.

And thank you so much for the kind words about the threads -- I hope at best, they might be interesting or helpful; at worse, well, I hope at least some find them entertaining!

The threads I put up are for very specific posters -- those who try to understand others' perspectives before jumping in and proclaiming a verdict -- and who are willing to read at least some of what others say with an open heart, and be willing to share of themselves, too.

What keeps me motivated to write threads (even when we get a few who don't understand what we're doing,) is watching the awesome bits of community we can form, just by getting familiar with other's stories and thoughts.

Thank you always to you and everyone for taking the time to turn these threads into fellowships!

 

[seoulsearch]

Personally I don't see the issue. They are adults and room mates. I think some people are so "heavenly minded" they're no earthly good. If you're going to condemn them, then as a church, step up and pay their bills. In my travels there plenty of churches that had a million dollars in their bank accounts. It used to anger me so much. I wanted to say "What are you waiting for? You have a whole community that needs help!! Don't hoard what God has blessed you with!!"

My grandmother took a brain tumor and she came to live with us till she passed. We all helped out, my fathers brothers gave money and we physically took care of her. So either pony up or mind your business. Nothing wrong with what the couple is doing.

Grade A, Blue Ribbon, Grand Champion kind of post!!!

Thank you so much for sharing.

I have often thought this myself (that people who are going to judge should then be required to contribute to the solution with their own time and money,) but that would just be crazy talk.

This includes me, as I have felt God tap me on the shoulder many times, saying, "If you don't like it, then here's what I want you to start doing about it..."

9.5 times out of 10, I know it's going to cost me time and money.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Grade A, Blue Ribbon, Grand Champion kind of post!!!

Thank you so much for sharing.

I have often thought this myself (that people who are going to judge should then be required to contribute to the solution with their own time and money,) but that would just be crazy talk.

This includes me, as I have felt God tap me on the shoulder many times, saying, "If you don't like it, then here's what I want you to start doing about it..."

9.5 times out of 10, I know it's going to cost me time and money.

It's too easy to shove people into a home and forget them. We were still traveling in ministry when my grandmother took sick. Now my father had brothers that were able to help out, but as far as her physical care, we looked after her. And that was no easy task after she had a brain tumor removed. She never really recovered but we couldn't bear to put her in a home.So we did the work and changed what we could for her comfort. Christians tend to be good at judging, terrible at solutions that involve their help or money. I call that hypocritical.

 

[Godsgirl1983]

I understand, and I'm glad you brought this up.

I'm almost finished going through my time of reading the Bible all the way through (I'm currently in the middle of Revelation -- I just have to finish that and the discussion topics at the end,) but I'm writing down Romans to go back to next. This will be my 8th time reading the Bible through, but of course, it's a lifetime learning process.

I know that many here have said no true Christian willfully sins.

I tend to question that.

When the multiple people come here ask for help with pornography, they're willingly opening their phones and computers, purposefully looking up the material they are seeking.

If someone sees someone attractive, they might choose to willingly have the wrong thoughts about them.

When the ladies at church gather, the honest ones will admit that part of the willful purpose of gathering is to "catch up" -- on other people's business that's not meant to be shared -- in the name of fellowship.

When the person who knows they need to lose weight eats donuts and fast food, they're willfully choosing to do so -- even though they knew it was killing them.

I don't say this in criticism of anyone, or any particular sin. But yes, I believe there are times when even the most devout of Christians willfully choose to sin.


I once read the story of a grown man in his mid-40's who was struggling because he had been sexually abused by a neighbor in his youth. No matter how much he tried or how much counseling he went to, he couldn't get past it. The Christian counselor who saw him through his breakthrough (and wrote the book) said that God told him the reason he wasn't healing was because, it started out as abuse.

But somewhere along the way, he grew to like it, and would willingly, purposefully go to the neighbor's house -- fully knowing and seeking what was going to happen.


Medically, I am supposed to avoid certain foods, like carbs.

But yet I willingly choose to overindulge in them every day.

And I personally believe God sees this as sin.

Sometimes I think about situations like this, where someone knows the right thing to do, or the better choice to make but willfully chooses not to do it. And then this verse comes to mind:

James 4:17
If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.