How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[lamad]

The LORD's Ministry was for 3.5 Years - 'coincidence' = NOPE = Right on TARGET

There is no clear verse showing how long Jesus' ministry was. It could have been for 3.5 years. Was it? Since no scripture tells us, it is only a guess.

 

[ewq1938]

Do you agree then that HERE: at the 6th seal, is where God's wrath begins?

Where is Jesus at when 7th seal is opened? Is he at Earth pouring his wrath upon the unsaved?

 

[DavidTree]

There is no clear verse showing how long Jesus' ministry was. It could have been for 3.5 years. Was it? Since no scripture tells us, it is only a guess.

And there is no verse in Revelation showing 7 years either - go figure.

 

[ewq1938]

In other words, your math is off. Your interpretation of a pre-trib rapture and a 7 year GT is impossible.

I agree but there is a small snag in thinking the length of GT has always been the same:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Let me add in what you are saying and see if this makes any sense:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation for three and a half years, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened down to three and a half years , there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened down to three and a half years.

That isn't a shortening of "those days" of "great tribulation". Therefore, it had to have been longer than 3.5 years so it could be shortened to less amount of time.

Comment?

@Runningman

 

[lawrence101]

Where is the scripture that expressly states the church will go through the Great Tribulation?

The church will not go thru the GT but many will be saved out of it ( REV. 7:14 )

 

[DavidTree]

The church will not go thru the GT but many will be saved out of it ( REV. 7:14 )

Now, if Rev 7:14 says His Saints/His Church/His Elect are in the GT, why do people insist on error an dfalsehood by saying the Church will not be where the Lord says they are................

ALSO - no one has yet to bring forth a single scripture where the Lord, the Apostles or the Prophets say: the Elect will not be in the GT.

Have you read Matthew ch24 and Daniel ch7 and 1 thess and 2 Thess and 1 John ch2

All these Scripture say His Elect will go thru the GT.

Is it a good thing to argue against Scripture with no evidence but mere words of man...............

 

[Runningman]

I agree but there is a small snag in thinking the length of GT has always been the same:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Let me add in what you are saying and see if this makes any sense:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation for three and a half years, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened down to three and a half years , there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened down to three and a half years.

That isn't a shortening of "those days" of "great tribulation". Therefore, it had to have been longer than 3.5 years so it could be shortened to less amount of time.

Comment?

@Runningman

I see what you're saying. 1. I always interpreted that to mean that the great tribulation would last longer than 3.5 years unless God intervened to shorten it. 2. I see it's also possible to interpret it that the great tribulation was going to be allowed to go on longer than 3.5 years, but God sees that "there should no flesh be saved" unless it's shortened. That's interesting, but I tend to prefer interpretation 1 because I can't find a verse that says how long the great tribulation could have been or how long it was going to be. So we don't know how long it was shortened by.

I think the important part is that God does not want the church to be completely wiped out during the great tribulation. This is necessary for the post-trib rapture.

I interpret 1 Thess. 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up " to refer to those who survived the great trib. In English, when we refer to "the remaining" it has the nuance of referring to those who continue to exist, especially after other similar or related people or things have ceased to exist. Basically, God is keeping some tribulation saints around for the rapture, they are "the elect" gathered by angels in Matt. 24:31.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I interpret 1 Thess. 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up " to refer to those who survived the great trib. In English, when we refer to "the remaining" it has the nuance of referring to those who continue to exist, especially after other similar or related people or things have ceased to exist. Basically, God is keeping some tribulation saints around for the rapture, they are "the elect" gathered by angels in Matt. 24:31.

I can understand why you might think this.

But I would suggest that the word "remaining [present participle]" ["ALIVE and remaining"] is being contrasted with "the DEAD in Christ" (who've died beforehand--and which would therefore include ALL the saints who've DIED "in this present age"--up until the event being referenced in v.17 [i.e. the "SNATCH" point in time])... So what I'm saying is that it is SIMILAR to our English phrasing (when a loved one DIES): they say, "he [the deceased] is SURVIVED by his wife of 43 years"... the term has nothing to do with the "remaining" person experiencing some form of external attacks and so forth.


Here's the word for "remaining [G4035 - perileipomai ]" -

[quoting from BibleHub]

Word Origin
from peri and leipó
Definition
to be left remaining


[and]

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 4035: περιλείπω

περιλείπω: present passive participle περιλειπόμενος (cf. περί, III. 2); to leave over; passive, to remain over, to survive: 1 Thessalonians 4:15, 17. (Aristophanes, Plato, Euripides, Polybius, Herodian; 2 Macc. 1:31.)


[and]

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
remain.
From peri and leipo; to leave all around, i.e. (passively) survive -- remain.
see GREEK peri
see GREEK leipo


-- https://biblehub.com/greek/4035.htm



[end quoting]



In the context, contrasted with "the DEAD in Christ," the "remaining" means the ones "still-living" (who haven't "died" by contrast); the word does NOT necessitate that the still-living ones "went through the Trib" (as though suggesting, so did the "DEAD in Christ" except they DIED in the midst of it at some point... which is not the case, we know, because it includes saints who died in the first century too).

 

[Runningman]

I can understand why you might think this.

But I would suggest that the word "remaining [present participle]" ["ALIVE and remaining"] is being contrasted with "the DEAD in Christ" (who've died beforehand--and which would therefore include ALL the saints who've DIED "in this present age"--up until the event being referenced in v.17 [i.e. the "SNATCH" point in time])... So what I'm saying is that it is SIMILAR to our English phrasing (when a loved one DIES): they say, "he [the deceased] is SURVIVED by his wife of 43 years"... the term has nothing to do with the "remaining" person experiencing some form of external attacks and so forth.


Here's the word for "remaining [G4035 - perileipomai ]" -

[quoting from BibleHub]

Word Origin
from peri and leipó
Definition
to be left remaining


[and]

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 4035: περιλείπω

περιλείπω: present passive participle περιλειπόμενος (cf. περί, III. 2); to leave over; passive, to remain over, to survive: 1 Thessalonians 4:15, 17. (Aristophanes, Plato, Euripides, Polybius, Herodian; 2 Macc. 1:31.)


[and]

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
remain.
From peri and leipo; to leave all around, i.e. (passively) survive -- remain.
see GREEK peri
see GREEK leipo


-- https://biblehub.com/greek/4035.htm



[end quoting]



In the context, contrasted with "the DEAD in Christ," the "remaining" means the ones "still-living" (who haven't "died" by contrast); the word does NOT necessitate that the still-living ones "went through the Trib" (as though suggesting, so did the "DEAD in Christ" except they DIED in the midst of it at some point... which is not the case, we know, because it includes saints who died in the first century too).

They're "alive and remain" meaning that they are still living and have survived something that would have otherwise made them not alive. The only Biblical thing that fits the context of the rapture would be they have survived the great tribulation and are ready for their post-tribulation rapture.

1 Thess. 4:17 is consistent with what Jesus said in Matt. 24:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved"

 

[ewq1938]

I see what you're saying. 1. I always interpreted that to mean that the great tribulation would last longer than 3.5 years unless God intervened to shorten it.

And that's my point. The GT had to have once been longer than 3.5 years for it to be shortened down to the most recent length told by Revelation 13 to be 3.5 years. I find that it could have originally been 7 years to make sense with God deciding to change it to make sure some saints would survive.

What this means is the GT originally was longer than 3.5 years and no flesh of the saints were intended to survive. God decided to change those things and make it shorter and allow some to survive. This proves prophecy can be changed if God wants a new outcome.

 

[DavidTree]

I can understand why you might think this.

But I would suggest that the word "remaining [present participle]" ["ALIVE and remaining"] is being contrasted with "the DEAD in Christ" (who've died beforehand--and which would therefore include ALL the saints who've DIED "in this present age"--up until the event being referenced in v.17 [i.e. the "SNATCH" point in time])... So what I'm saying is that it is SIMILAR to our English phrasing (when a loved one DIES): they say, "he [the deceased] is SURVIVED by his wife of 43 years"... the term has nothing to do with the "remaining" person experiencing some form of external attacks and so forth.


Here's the word for "remaining [G4035 - perileipomai ]" -

[quoting from BibleHub]

Word Origin
from peri and leipó
Definition
to be left remaining

[and]

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 4035: περιλείπω

περιλείπω: present passive participle περιλειπόμενος (cf. περί, III. 2); to leave over; passive, to remain over, to survive: 1 Thessalonians 4:15, 17. (Aristophanes, Plato, Euripides, Polybius, Herodian; 2 Macc. 1:31.)

[and]

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
remain.
From peri and leipo; to leave all around, i.e. (passively) survive -- remain.
see GREEK peri
see GREEK leipo

-- https://biblehub.com/greek/4035.htm

[end quoting]

In the context, contrasted with "the DEAD in Christ," the "remaining" means the ones "still-living" (who haven't "died" by contrast); the word does NOT necessitate that the still-living ones "went through the Trib" (as though suggesting, so did the "DEAD in Christ" except they DIED in the midst of it at some point... which is not the case, we know, because it includes saints who died in the first century too).

Dancing and prancing around scripture will only make you go in circles.

It was made crystal clear that these Saints in Thessalonica were in tribulation greatly being persecuted unto death.

Not only that but since the Apostle Paul understood OT Prophecy, he wrote these words to Thessolinica:

So when we could bear it no longer, we were willing to be left on our own in Athens.
2We sent Timothy, our brother and fellow worker for God in the gospel of Christ, to strengthen and encourage you in your faith,
3so that none of you would be shaken by these trials. For you know that we are destined for this.
4Indeed, when we were with you, we kept warning you that we would suffer persecution;

and as you know, it has come to pass.

5For this reason, when I could bear it no longer, I sent to find out about your faith, for fear that the tempter had somehow tempted you and caused our labor to be in vain.

Which brings us to chapter 4 where the Apostle FIRMLY & FOREVER gives the exact ORDER of the Coming of the LORD.

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope.
For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep/died in Him.

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain
until the coming of the Lord
will by no means precede those who have died/fallen asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

No pre-trib rapture for anyone = PERIOD

Resurrection FIRST at His Coming = exactly what our LORD says in the Gospels and in Revelation

SEE here: Revelation 6:9-11

And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”

11Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer,
until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

No one will understand Revelation if you "add to and take away" from God's words with pre-trib or any other falsehood.

 

[Runningman]

And that's my point. The GT had to have once been longer than 3.5 years for it to be shortened down to the most recent length told by Revelation 13 to be 3.5 years. I find that it could have originally been 7 years to make sense with God deciding to change it to make sure some saints would survive.

What this means is the GT originally was longer than 3.5 years and no flesh of the saints were intended to survive. God decided to change those things and make it shorter and allow some to survive. This proves prophecy can be changed if God wants a new outcome.

Very interesting point. Yes and I agree that it is scriptural that God can change His mind on occasion.

 

[Runningman]

Dancing and prancing around scripture will only make you go in circles.

It was made crystal clear that these Saints in Thessalonica were in tribulation greatly being persecuted unto death.

Not only that but since the Apostle Paul understood OT Prophecy, he wrote these words to Thessolinica:

So when we could bear it no longer, we were willing to be left on our own in Athens.
2We sent Timothy, our brother and fellow worker for God in the gospel of Christ, to strengthen and encourage you in your faith,
3so that none of you would be shaken by these trials. For you know that we are destined for this.
4Indeed, when we were with you, we kept warning you that we would suffer persecution;

and as you know, it has come to pass.

5For this reason, when I could bear it no longer, I sent to find out about your faith, for fear that the tempter had somehow tempted you and caused our labor to be in vain.

Which brings us to chapter 4 where the Apostle FIRMLY & FOREVER gives the exact ORDER of the Coming of the LORD.

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope.
For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep/died in Him.

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain
until the coming of the Lord
will by no means precede those who have died/fallen asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

No pre-trib rapture for anyone = PERIOD

Resurrection FIRST at His Coming = exactly what our LORD says in the Gospels and in Revelation

SEE here: Revelation 6:9-11

And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”

11Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer,
until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

No one will understand Revelation if you "add to and take away" from God's words with pre-trib or any other falsehood.

I didn't think of Revelation 6:9-11, it seems to fit well with 1 Thess. 4:17 and Matt. 24:22. I think this because it says "the full number of," meaning there is an unspecified number fellow servants (their brothers) that will be killed. To me this suggests that not all of their brothers will be killed, but only a "number of" (a fraction of) the total amount brothers available in a set.

 

[Runningman]

Definition of a number of

: more than two but fewer than many : several
There are a number of different options to choose from.
source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/

 

[ewq1938]

Definition of a number of

: more than two but fewer than many : several
There are a number of different options to choose from.
source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled .

There is no amount listed in the passage.

 

[DavidTree]

I didn't think of Revelation 6:9-11, it seems to fit well with 1 Thess. 4:17 and Matt. 24:22. I think this because it says "the full number of," meaning there is an unspecified number fellow servants (their brothers) that will be killed. To me this suggests that not all of their brothers will be killed, but only a "number of" (a fraction of) the total amount brothers available in a set.

HARMONY of Scripture = God is not the author of confusion.

The LORD knows the End from the Beginning and always communicates this way to us - therefore we are to trust His word.

In the mouth of Two or Three Witnesses shall every word be established.
This was fulfilled concerning His First Coming and has been fulfilled concerning the events leading to His Second Coming.

Therefore we are not left with a task to decide how these thing take place, but to adhere to what is written, where our Faith stands.

For this reason I will not be negligent to remind you always of these things, though you know and are established in the present truth. 13Yes, I think it is right, as long as I am in this tent, to stir you up by reminding you, 14knowing that shortly I must put off my tent, just as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. 15Moreover I will be careful to ensure that you always have a reminder of these things after my decease.

16For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” 18And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.

19And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
21for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
2 Peter ch1

 

[Runningman]

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled .

There is no amount listed in the passage.

Oh I missed that. The KJV doesn't say "the full number of."

 

[DavidTree]

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled .

There is no amount listed in the passage.

God knows the number but not us, and there is no reason for Him to tell us.

Praise the Lord!
For it is good to sing praises to our God;
For it is pleasant, and praise is beautiful.

The Lord builds up Jerusalem;
He gathers together the outcasts of Israel.
He heals the brokenhearted
And binds up their wounds.
He counts the number of the stars;
He calls them all by name.
Psalm 147

 

[DavidTree]

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled .

There is no amount listed in the passage.

Oh I missed that. The KJV doesn't say "the full number of."

the full number
πληρωθῶσιν (plērōthōsin)
Verb - Aorist Subjunctive Passive - 3rd Person Plural
Strong's Greek 4137: From pleres; to make replete, i.e. to cram, level up, or to furnish, satisfy, execute, finish, verify, etc.

 

[DavidTree]

Oh I missed that. The KJV doesn't say "the full number of."

the full number
πληρωθῶσιν (plērōthōsin)
Verb - Aorist Subjunctive Passive - 3rd Person Plural
Strong's Greek 4137: From pleres; to make replete, i.e. to cram, level up, or to furnish, satisfy, execute, finish, verify, etc.