How was job righteous?

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Nov 26, 2011
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#41
Originally Posted by Elin

Originally Posted by Skinski7

There it is right there
. You cannot get around that so you dance all over the place implying this and implying that.
Well, let's look at the whole counsel of God.

The righteousness of Jesus Christ comes through faith (Ro 3:22),
which is a gift of God (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3)
and not the doing of man.

Here you prooftexting again in an attempt to undermine the fact the men have to do anything. To you everything is automatic. In essence you believe that human beings are sin robots and God has elected some of the sin robots to salvation and then reprograms them apart from anything they could do because they were all originally programmed to sin. That is what you believe. So you isolate select verses in the Bible out of their context in an attempt to prove it.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Php 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
Act 18:27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.


I would challenge anyone to go and read all the above verses in their context and really see if they negate any responsibility of man to "do something" in response to the grace of God.

Jesus said...

Luk 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Why would Jesus say such a thing if Reformed Theology was correct and God "makes people doers" apart from any choice they have in the matter? Not withstanding that Reformed Theology teaches that inward depravity remains in those regenerated thus causing them to keep on working iniquity anyway. That is another contradiction, on the one hand they teach God will make you obey but then on the other they teach you will never truly obey. Which is it? It amazes me that learned people can believe this stuff.


Strive means...

G75 - agōnizomai
From G73; to struggle, literally (to compete for a prize), figuratively (to contend with an adversary), or generally (to endeavor to accomplish something): - fight, labor fervently, strive.

Instead of "repent, believe, strive, do, keep my commandments. remain steadfast" etc. it is "confess, trust and recieve" today. It is awful. Modern theology utterly rejects what the Bible actually teaches and sticks to proof texting various verses out of context to teach a message which has a "form of godliness" but actually denied the power thereof because they never have victory over sin. The old man is never crucified like Paul teaches and thus there is never any true raising up to newness of life where old things are passed away and all things are made new. It simply doesn't happen, instead people are left with a "notion" they are saved because they "believe in Jesus." They have no clue as to what "believe in Jesus" really means.




And the righteousness which comes through faith is also a gift of God
(Ro 1:17, 3:21), and not the doing of man.

A gift wrought through a faith that works by love resultant of abiding in the grace of God. Not an unconditional gift where we do nothing. That is the error here. Reformed Theology rejects men having to do anything for in their mind that would infringe on the sovereignty of God. Yet the Bible teaches...

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. The gift of God being eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ (Rom 6:23) only becomes an effectual reality to an individual who "works together with God." Thus the grace of God which brings salvation is not recieved to no working effect (in vain).

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
It is disingenious to quote various verses out of context completely ignoring what else the Bible says on the matter. The Bible is not a book of proof texts, the Bible is a book that paints a harmonious picture of the truth of God here a little and there a little.

The gift
of the righteousness (Ro 1:17, 3:21) of Jesus Christ (Ro 5:19)
is reckoned, accounted (credited) to many by the gift of faith (Ro 4:3, 5, 9, 22)

Yes by faithfully abiding in the grace of God which teaches us the way we ought to go (Tit 2:11-12). Thus we are to lay aside ALL filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness and receive the word within and through abiding in that word our souls are saved because we are made clean within, our hearts being made pure.


Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.


1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


Reformed theology denies the above verses because they teach that you CANNOT lay aside all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness because you are born depraved. Thus they have redefined repentance to be a mere "confession of sinfulness" and they have redefined "recieving" to be simply "trust." Under this delusion a sinner never comes clean with God in confessing and forsaking their rebellion and thus they never walk in the light as He is in the light (1Joh 1:7) and the blood therefore never cleanses them of all sin.

Recieving the implanted word means to be led of it. We are to abide in the vine and through doing that the grace of God which guides our hearts brings an inward transformation to us through the energy of God. Hence...

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Under the false Gospel of the Reformers this quickening never happens because the converts never experience the circumcision of heart. They never lay aside their rebellion because they are taught that they cannot lay it aside for it is necessitated by an inward corruption due to a birth defect inherited from Adam (ie. Original Sin).

Christ's righteousness is credited to those who believe in him.

Yet you cannot quote a single verse in the entire Bible which says "the righteousness of Jesus is credited to the believer." Not a single verse anywhere. Instead you have to use rhetoric which you attempt to substatinate by isolating and proof texting Bible verses.

Originally Posted by Skinski7

Likewise nowhere does the Bible teach that you are "born guilty and already condemned" because of Adam. You appeal to Rom 5:19 as a proof text for this but it does not say that.
Previously addressed in post #29, at my last response.

Each will have to decide for himself regarding these matters.

Indeed.

2Co_13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Act 20:26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
Act 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
Yes it is a long post but my intention is to be clear and concise. Bullet points generally don't work because due to how many people respond with a canned response. For those who think it is to long they don't have to read it.

Thanks for reading.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#42
The bible doesn't say that faith is credited as righteousness, but that
faith is credited into [eis, εἰς] the righteousness of GOD.
However, eis also means against, among, at, for, in, into, that, on, to, toward, unto, upon.

If he believed God's promise, why would faith be "credited" to him.
He already had it, was in possession of it, he didn't need crediting of it.


The idea that faith is credited as righteousness regards faith as a meritorious work that makes man righteous.
Except that faith is a work of God, a gift (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3),
and not a meritorious work of our own.

The belief that faith is credited into righteousness regards faith as a non-meritorious work that imputes to man the righteousness of GOD.

In the former case, man gets the glory; in the latter, GOD gets the glory.
It just shifts the meritorious work from faith to righteousness.
How did they get righteous?
So man gets the glory for righteousness instead of faith.
 
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Nov 26, 2011
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#43
It just shifts the meritorious work from faith to righteousness.
How did they get righteous?
So man gets the glory for righteousness instead of faith.
How can man get the glory for righteousness when the source of righteousness flows from God? Can a light globe boast in its light when it depends on electricity?

A grape branch is utterly dependent on the vine. Likewise the fruit of the branch is only wrought because the branch is attached to the vine.

Likewise the manifest righteousness of those born of God has its source with God.

So to teach that men have the "responsibility" of "exercising free agency" to "abide in the vine" somehow deifies man in your mind? Somehow it takes the glory away from God?

That is a very messed up view.

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
 
R

reject-tech

Guest
#44
First, some word technicalities. Everyone loves those right?
Job claimed righteous-ness, which is to claim a similarity to something, but not the thing itself.
In all cases where he actually thought he was righteous, he was corrected and reoriented.
God attributed righteousness to Job, in his face, though Job had a problem accepting it - all of Job chapter 2
In reading the entire book, I believe it's obvious that Job felt like the verses that the OP posts, partly from humility, and partly from beating himself up over the issue.

As to why he was "perfect and upright" on the other hand, and claimed righteousness, that is, the journey rather than the destination -

Job Chapter 1
verse 1 - his name means "afflicted" and he lives in "contemplation"
verse 2 - he kept commandments 4-10 as his personal legacy, and commandments 1-3 as things that he wanted to give to other men.
verse 3 part 1 - commandments 4-10 were carefully tended to, 1-3 were swiftly and richly gifted, and more than a child cares to manually count.
verse 3 part 2 - he studied the commandments dilegently with half of his intent, and with the other half, he used them to carry others.
verse 3 part 3 - he was really really ace at keeping the commandments.

They are - Love God and Love other people. "Do NO harm" as the doctors say.
Doesn't matter what earthly language the bible is written or read in, the preserved metaphor is a different and unique type of heavenly language altogether. Interpreted only by the Spirit of compassionate love towards God and all of mankind.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#45
Elin said:
Skinski17 said:
My comments in purple.

Nowhere does the Bible teach that the "righteousness of Christ" is credited to the believers account.
It does in Ro 5:19.

"Through the obedience of one man, the many were made righteous." (Ro 5:19)
Through the obedience of Jesus we are literally made righteous when we abide in Him.
We are justified (declared righteous) through the gift of faith (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3)
by free grace (Eph 2:8-9), which applies Jesus' saving work to our sin for its forgiveness,
giving us salvation from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) on our sin.

We are then sanctified (character made righteous) through obedience, which is abiding in Christ.


It is not a forensic credit but an actual transformation that takes place.
In the NT, both take place, in a two-part transaction:

justification (declared righteous, right standing before God by forgiveness of sin), then
sanctification (character made righteous through obedience).


The Bible plainly states that it is faith itself that God reckons as righteousness.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly,
his faith is counted for righteousness.
The Greek word for "counted" here is logizomai, which is "to reckon (to attribute, impute),"
"to number," "to account (to debit/credit)."

His faith is accounted (credited) to him as righteousness. (Ge 15:6)
Yes the "faith" of Abraham was credited to him as righteousness EXACTLY as the text states.
The text does not teach that the "obedience of Jesus" is judicially transferred to your account
Addressed above.

which is what Reformed Theology teaches.
What does Reformed Theology have to do with it?

Scripture is our authority.

 
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Jan 19, 2013
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#46
Yes it is a long post but my intention is to be clear and concise. . .

For those who think it is to long they don't have to read it.

Thanks for reading.
Here, I've shortened it up for you for those who think it is too long.

Elin said:
Skinski17 said:
There it is right there. You cannot get around that so you dance all over the place implying this and implying that.
Well, let's look at the whole counsel of God.

The righteousness of Jesus Christ comes through faith (Ro 3:22),
which is a gift of God (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3)
and not the doing of man.

And the righteousness which comes through faith is also a gift of God
(Ro 1:17, 3:21), and not the doing of man.

The gift of the righteousness (Ro 1:17, 3:21) of Jesus Christ (Ro 5:19)
is reckoned, accounted (credited) to many by the gift of faith (Ro 4:3, 5, 9, 22)

Christ's righteousness is credited to those who believe in him.
Likewise nowhere does the Bible teach that you are "born guilty and already condemned" because of Adam. You appeal to Rom 5:19 as a proof text for this but it does not say that.
Previously addressed in post #29, (here), at my last response.

Each will have to decide for himself regarding these matters.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#48
How can man get the glory for righteousness when the source of righteousness flows from God?
So righteousness is a gift from God through faith (Ro 1:17, 3:21).
And faith is likewise a gift of God (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3).
We are in agreement.

And this righteousness (obedience) of Christ, through which we are made righteous (Ro 5:19)
in this gift from God, has to be credited to us, because we certainly don't have it, nor
can we get it in any way.


Christ's righteousness is credited to us (Ro 5:19).
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#51
Your eis is #6, which also means "for."

Is there a problem?

"Faith was credited for righteousness."
My original point is that man is credited with GOD's righteousness through faith. Faith is the means for believing and trusting in GOD's mercy and grace through which he credits his perfect righteousness to a sinner's account.

Faith does not make a person righteous. The bible doesn't say that Abraham believed GOD and became, or was made, righteous; it says that [God's] righteousness was credited to his account.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#52
My original point is that man is credited with GOD's righteousness through faith. Faith is the means for believing and trusting in GOD's mercy and grace through which he credits his perfect righteousness to a sinner's account.
Okay, so when you say faith is "credited into righteousness," you mean God turns his faith into righteousness, he is counted as having God's righteousness.

The "into" was confusing me.
We are in agreement.

Faith does not make a person righteous. The bible doesn't say that Abraham believed GOD and became, or was made, righteous; it says that [God's] righteousness was credited to his account.
Yea and amen.
 
Aug 5, 2013
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#53
There is much to learn from through the story of Job.

What is in your heart is being portrayed here; "DOUBT"

May the day come when you believe.
Doubt is generally considered to be a good thing. When you get an e-mail from a Nigerian prince who wants money from you so that he can help move his fabulous riches from one place to another (with promises of payback with interest for you), a moment of doubt is seen as "intelligent" and "wise". Lacking doubt makes one credulous and thus open to scams and cons of every sort... including religion. While I'm sure you protest on behalf of Christianity, just frame that last sentence as "everyone else's religion", because all those pagans would surely doubt their own religious views if they were allowed to doubt, wouldn't they? ...Because you and I equally agree that all those other religions are wrong and ought to be doubted.

So when faced with a biblical contradiction such as the one posted here, doubt would save you from a scam as surely as it would save those who believe false holy books (such as the Qur'an) with equally contradictory scripture.

In fact, if we also delve into the scripture that you don't doubt, you'll find that "doubting Thomas" was not met with ridicule or condescension when showing doubt towards Jesus. Nor is doubt a sin. These facts should keep you wary about attacking doubt, even if you persist to led the bible guide your decisions about it.
 
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Jan 19, 2013
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#54


In my shortening it up for you, following. . .


Skinski7 said:
Skinski said:
Elin said:
Well, let's look at the whole counsel of God.

The righteousness of Jesus Christ comes through faith (Ro 3:22),
which is a gift of God (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3)
and not the doing of man.

And the righteousness which comes through faith is also a gift of God
(Ro 1:17, 3:21), and not the doing of man.

The gift of the righteousness (Ro 1:17, 3:21) of Jesus Christ (Ro 5:19)
is reckoned, accounted (credited) to many by the gift of faith (Ro 4:3, 5, 9, 22)

Christ's righteousness is credited to those who believe in him (Ro 5:19).
Likewise nowhere does the Bible teach that you are "born guilty and already condemned" because of Adam. You appeal to Rom 5:19 as a proof text for this but it does not say that.
Previously addressed in post #29, (here), at my last response.

. . .I missed the part following:


Elin said:
And the righteousness which comes through faith is also a gift of God
(Ro 1:17, 3:21), and not the doing of man.
A gift wrought through
"A gift wrought" (worked) is not a gift, it is wages.

Faith is a gift, not wages earned by work.

The gift of the righteousness (Ro 1:17, 3:21) of Jesus Christ (Ro 5:19)
is reckoned, accounted (credited) to many by the gift of faith (Ro 4:3, 5, 9, 22)
Yes by faithfully abiding in the grace of God

That's step 2, the process of sanctification, which is the result

of step 1,
the free gift of righteousness (justification),

which is based on nothing but
faith (Ro 1:17, 3:21)
which is also
a free gift (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18;27; Ro 12:3).

We don't "wrought" righteousness by faith (Ro 1:17, 3:21).

Christ's righteousness is credited to those who believe in him.
Yet you cannot quote a single verse in the entire Bible which says "the righteousness of Jesus is credited to the believer."

Addressed above.
 
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