If Perchance Catholicism Is Mistaken

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Mar 28, 2016
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When you talk about rightly dividing the word, it seems to me that being able to say what is scripture and what is not would be part of that.
Yes he would not command us if it was not his word we are to divide that he uses to show we do have his approval . We are his workmanship he forms His Spirit in us not of us . Lest any boast he has not received it freely with no cost on our behalf ?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Again, I'm not sure what situation you're talking about with the Pope bowing down to something.

I have seen Protestants bow down in front of a cross, I think I've probably done that myself.

If it is the use of three-dimensional objects in worship that you are concerned about, well, you probably already know that different Church groups throughout history have had different ideas about it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aniconism_in_Christianity
It doesn't matter who did, the Bible prohibit bow in front of statue.
When I did then I ignore the word of God.
And it is easy not to bow and pray in front statue. So pope do it in purpose to tell God, he is worship different God. He tell God he is satanic, that why he promote satanic Government, one world government.

We have to love catholic and open their eyes. Let them know lucifer direct them to worship Him, and one world government is nothing but the antichrist government

Leviticus 26:1 King James Version (KJV)

26 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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I do not argue scripture. All of the bible is Gods word. It is divinely inspired and divinely preserved for us. It is able to make us wise unto salvation. The Holy Spirit has been using the word of God to bring men to a saving knowledge of Christ longer than there has been an English translation.

The Roman catholic church endeavored to keep the bible from the masses by first translating it into Latin from the Hebrew and Greek. No one in the pews save a very small minority could understand Latin. I say let the textual critics argue among themselves. The bible has a practical and vital role to exercise in bringing men to Christ. Everything in the bible points to Christ and the need of every man to be saved from his sin or perish in the lake of fire for all eternity.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
When you say that you do not argue scripture, what is the definitive text of the scripture that you do not argue? The King James version? The Codex Sinaiticus? The lxx? The Masoretic text?

Which text was divinely preserved?

They don't all say the same thing, sometimes not even close.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Yes he would not command us if it was not his word we are to divide that he uses to show we do have his approval . We are his workmanship he forms His Spirit in us not of us . Lest any boast he has not received it freely with no cost on our behalf ?
Well that brings us back around to my earlier question
If the holy Spirit tells you what is scripture, then can you settle the question of how Mark ends?

https://mobile.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+16&version=NASB

I think two of the notes at the bottom of that webpage are interesting
Mark 16:9 Later mss add vv 9-20
Mark 16:20 A few late mss and versions contain this paragraph, usually after v 8; a few have it at the end of ch
The reason I keep talking about this is that there is an inherent circularity to the idea of using scripture only when it comes to deciding whether a document is scripture or not.

Before one can decide if a document is scripture, one needs to have a complete set of the scriptures. But before one can have a complete set of scriptures, one needs to know if the document in question is scripture.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
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It doesn't matter who did, the Bible prohibit bow in front of statue.
When I did then I ignore the word of God.
And it is easy not to bow and pray in front statue. So pope do it in purpose to tell God, he is worship different God. He tell God he is satanic, that why he promote satanic Government, one world government.

We have to love catholic and open their eyes. Let them know lucifer direct them to worship Him, and one world government is nothing but the antichrist government

Leviticus 26:1 King James Version (KJV)

26 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God.
Again, it sounds to me like a matter of personal Bible interpretation. And whether the Bible is to be interpreted by each individual alone.

Here is a passage which seems to me to be talking about bowing before a three dimensional object as part of one's worship of God
Psalm 5: 7. But as for me, in the abundance of your loving kindness I will come into your house. I will bow toward your holy temple in reverence of you.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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When you say that you do not argue scripture, what is the definitive text of the scripture that you do not argue? The King James version? The Codex Sinaiticus? The lxx? The Masoretic text?

Which text was divinely preserved?

They don't all say the same thing, sometimes not even close.
Do they all declare man to be a sinner and without hope of self redemption? Do all declare Christ as the only Savior able to save? Do they all declare salvation by grace through faith?

I cannot and will not discuss textual criticism with someone who is not a genuine born again Christian. Any discussion must begin with a mutually agreed foundation and that is the bible as the inerrant word of God. Divinely given to the prophets and apostles confirmed by Christ and preserved for us to use today.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Again, it sounds to me like a matter of personal Bible interpretation. And whether the Bible is to be interpreted by each individual alone.

Here is a passage which seems to me to be talking about bowing before a three dimensional object as part of one's worship of God
Psalm 5: 7. But as for me, in the abundance of your loving kindness I will come into your house. I will bow toward your holy temple in reverence of you.
7 But as for me, I will come into thy house in the multitude of thy mercy: and in thy fear will I worship toward thy holy temple.

This is figurative speech for worship God. I do not think God tell us to worship temple.

God not liar, He say not to bow to statue and than bow to temp,e

Leviticus 26:1 King James Version (KJV)

26 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Do they all declare man to be a sinner and without hope of self redemption? Do all declare Christ as the only Savior able to save? Do they all declare salvation by grace through faith?

I cannot and will not discuss textual criticism with someone who is not a genuine born again Christian. Any discussion must begin with a mutually agreed foundation and that is the bible as the inerrant word of God. Divinely given to the prophets and apostles confirmed by Christ and preserved for us to use today.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
"Do they all declare man to be a sinner and without hope of self redemption? Do all declare Christ as the only Savior able to save? Do they all declare salvation by grace through faith?"

I think they all declare that, of course again, there may be some issues of interpretation.

Which Bible, which manuscript, is the inerrant word of God, in your view?
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Do they all declare man to be a sinner and without hope of self redemption? Do all declare Christ as the only Savior able to save? Do they all declare salvation by grace through faith?

I cannot and will not discuss textual criticism with someone who is not a genuine born again Christian. Any discussion must begin with a mutually agreed foundation and that is the bible as the inerrant word of God. Divinely given to the prophets and apostles confirmed by Christ and preserved for us to use today.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Will you discuss the Canon of scripture with someone who was not born again? That is, which documents are scripture and which are not?

The list of documents that you say are scripture, did you choose it for yourself, or did someone else choose it for you? If it was someone else, were they a born again Christian?
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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7 But as for me, I will come into thy house in the multitude of thy mercy: and in thy fear will I worship toward thy holy temple.

This is figurative speech for worship God. I do not think God tell us to worship temple.

God not liar, He say not to bow to statue and than bow to temp,e

Leviticus 26:1 King James Version (KJV)

26 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God.
I don't think it's a figure of speech, I think the writer did literally bow in the direction of the Temple.

But of course, it's a matter of interpretation!
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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I don't think it's a figure of speech, I think the writer did literally bow in the direction of the Temple.

But of course, it's a matter of interpretation!
It may, but in direction of temple do not mean worship temple.

Bow infront of statue is prohibit

Leviticus 26:1 King James Version (KJV)

26 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
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It may, but in direction of temple do not mean worship temple.

Bow infront of statue is prohibit

Leviticus 26:1 King James Version (KJV)

26 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God.
Again, I would see it as a matter of interpretation, or even translation.

Some translations have
Bow toward
the temple
 

stillness

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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Walk trough the valley
One sentence of Jesus puts your worries to rest. "Behold I come quickly and my reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work." Another for good measure, "The end of the commandment is Love out of a pure heart and sincere Faith and a good conscience; from witch some have turned aside to vain conversation."
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Again, I would see it as a matter of interpretation, or even translation.

Some translations have
Bow toward
the temple
◄ Leviticus 26:1 ►
Leviticus 26 - Click for Chapter
3808 [e] 1
lō- 1
לֹֽא־ 1
Not 1
Adv‑NegPrt 1
6213 [e]
ṯa·‘ă·śū
תַעֲשׂ֨וּ
You shall make
V‑Qal‑Imperf‑2mp

lā·ḵem
לָכֶ֜ם
for yourselves
Prep | 2mp
457 [e]
’ĕ·lî·lim,
אֱלִילִ֗ם
idols
N‑mp




6459 [e]
ū·p̄e·sel
וּפֶ֤סֶל
and neither a carved image
Conj‑w | N‑ms




4676 [e]
ū·maṣ·ṣê·ḇāh
וּמַצֵּבָה֙
and a [sacred] pillar
Conj‑w | N‑fs
3808 [e]
lō-
לֹֽא־
nor
Adv‑NegPrt
6965 [e]
ṯā·qî·mū
תָקִ֣ימוּ
shall you rear up
V‑Hifil‑Imperf‑2mp

lā·ḵem,
לָכֶ֔ם
for yourselves
Prep | 2mp
68 [e]
wə·’e·ḇen
וְאֶ֣בֶן
and an stone
Conj‑w | N‑fsc




4906 [e]
maś·kîṯ,
מַשְׂכִּ֗ית
engraved
N‑fs
3808 [e]

לֹ֤א
nor
Adv‑NegPrt
5414 [e]
ṯit·tə·nū
תִתְּנוּ֙
shall you set up
V‑Qal‑Imperf‑2mp




776 [e]
bə·’ar·ṣə·ḵem,
בְּאַרְצְכֶ֔ם
in your land
Prep‑b | N‑fsc | 2mp
7812 [e]
lə·hiš·ta·ḥă·wōṯ
לְהִֽשְׁתַּחֲוֺ֖ת
to bow down
Prep‑l | V‑Hitpael‑Inf




5921 [e]
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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Again, I would see it as a matter of interpretation, or even translation.

Some translations have
Bow toward
the temple
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/psalms/5-6.htm

If you go to interlinear It say

◄ Psalm 5:7 ►
Text Analysis
Go to Parallel Hebrew
Strong's Hebrew English Morphology
589 [e] וַאֲנִ֗י
wa-’ă-nî, But I Conj-w | Pro-1cs
7230 [e] בְּרֹ֣ב
bə-rōḇ in the multitude Prep-b | N-msc
2617 [e] חַ֭סְדְּךָ
ḥas-də-ḵā of Your mercy N-msc | 2ms
935 [e] אָב֣וֹא
’ā-ḇō-w will come V-Qal-Imperf.h-1cs
1004 [e] בֵיתֶ֑ךָ
ḇê-ṯe-ḵā; into Your house N-msc | 2ms
7812 [e] אֶשְׁתַּחֲוֶ֥ה
’eš-ta-ḥă-weh I will worship V-Hitpael-Imperf.h-1cs
413 [e] אֶל־
’el- toward Prep
1964 [e] הֵֽיכַל־
hê-ḵal- temple N-msc
6944 [e] קָ֝דְשְׁךָ֗
qāḏ-šə-ḵā Your holy N-msc | 2ms
3374 [e] בְּיִרְאָתֶֽךָ׃
bə-yir-’ā-ṯe-ḵā. in fear of You Prep-b | N-fsc | 2ms



I Will go to Your house, I Will worship toward temple


Not worship temple.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/psalms/5-6.htm

If you go to interlinear It say

◄ Psalm 5:7 ►
Text Analysis
Go to Parallel Hebrew
Strong's Hebrew English Morphology
589 [e] וַאֲנִ֗י
wa-’ă-nî, But I Conj-w | Pro-1cs
7230 [e] בְּרֹ֣ב
bə-rōḇ in the multitude Prep-b | N-msc
2617 [e] חַ֭סְדְּךָ
ḥas-də-ḵā of Your mercy N-msc | 2ms
935 [e] אָב֣וֹא
’ā-ḇō-w will come V-Qal-Imperf.h-1cs
1004 [e] בֵיתֶ֑ךָ
ḇê-ṯe-ḵā; into Your house N-msc | 2ms
7812 [e] אֶשְׁתַּחֲוֶ֥ה
’eš-ta-ḥă-weh I will worship V-Hitpael-Imperf.h-1cs
413 [e] אֶל־
’el- toward Prep
1964 [e] הֵֽיכַל־
hê-ḵal- temple N-msc
6944 [e] קָ֝דְשְׁךָ֗
qāḏ-šə-ḵā Your holy N-msc | 2ms
3374 [e] בְּיִרְאָתֶֽךָ׃
bə-yir-’ā-ṯe-ḵā. in fear of You Prep-b | N-fsc | 2ms



I Will go to Your house, I Will worship toward temple


Not worship temple.

Sorry I am not copy It completly

But I, in the Multitude of your Merry Will come into your house, I Will worship toward temple your Holy in fear of you.


It was in OT people worship God in temple.

After Jesus teach that there is a time people worship not in jerusalem or mountain but in spirit and thruth.

Jesus want us to be smart, worship not depend oN where but what is in your heart

John 4

21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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Will you discuss the Canon of scripture with someone who was not born again? That is, which documents are scripture and which are not?

The list of documents that you say are scripture, did you choose it for yourself, or did someone else choose it for you? If it was someone else, were they a born again Christian?
Why discuss anything about the canon of scripture with an unsaved person? Why not focus on the person of Christ that will move them toward salvation?

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Mar 28, 2016
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1,528
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Well that brings us back around to my earlier question


The reason I keep talking about this is that there is an inherent circularity to the idea of using scripture only when it comes to deciding whether a document is scripture or not.

Before one can decide if a document is scripture, one needs to have a complete set of the scriptures. But before one can have a complete set of scriptures, one needs to know if the document in question is scripture.
Scripture alone (sola scriptura) is inspired by God and interpreted, signified according to his hearing prescriptions. God moved men to record his interpretation one word at a time and therefore the whole or perfect. He is not served by human hands of a corrupted creation. His wrath is being revealed from the moment he corrupted it His glory departed..

It’s not like scripture is inspired by God, and the cannon by men that looked to be venerated. A form of worship. Puffing up each other after the flesh above sola scriptura all things written in the law and the prophets ) venerating men by seeking what the eyes see above that as it is written That’s a Catholic format They either forget or ignore that all such false boasting seeking the approval of men shows their goal to venerate the things seen as if the kingdom of God came by observation.

1 Corinthians 4:6-7 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

Can you see the difference? You must hold on to the ideas of puffing up venerating men above that which is written. The Catholic call it according to their book of the law of the fathers CCC the same Divine source of faith.

No man can serve two teaching masters even though a law of the Catholics fathers called after a succession of men seen apostolic succession. Destroying the meaning of the word apostle.

All things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura) is the restoring authority of the government of God in any time period.

It effectively worked in the first century as a carbon copy of the 15 the century. It does its promised work to teach guide comfort and last but not least bring to our minds the things he has taught us as to waking by one faith .Our daily bread working in us daily. As a hope we are doing his will our living hope that does not disappoint what God has appointed. It is he
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Scripture alone (sola scriptura) is inspired by God and interpreted, signified according to his hearing prescriptions.
Had you ended that after "God" it would be unassailable. With the extra words, it's incomprehensible.

God moved men to record his interpretation one word at a time and therefore the whole or perfect.
That is an assumption not supported by Scripture.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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It may, but in direction of temple do not mean worship temple.

Bow infront of statue is prohibit

Leviticus 26:1 King James Version (KJV)

26 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God.
yes there can be a difference between bowing in front of something and worshipping something.

so we would probably need to know what is in the heart of the Pope to know whether he was just bowing or actually worshipping.