At a seminar many years ago I was sent out with a list of questions to ask random people on the street. This question was at the end of the list and the idea was that people would say yes and then we would share the gospel with them. I honestly never thought I’d have to face this question myself.
I grew up in pretty much your typical small Bible based church. I learned my Bible stories in Sunday school, memory verses in an AWANA club, went to VBS, etc. During my high school years the church I was attending slowly started splitting into two factions: a more traditional faction and a charismatic faction. So in my high school years I started being exposed to the idea that God still interacts personally with people today. When I started college I started attending a Vineyard church and learning a lot about hearing from God and the prophetic, which is basically a catch all term for receiving information directly from God and moving in obedience to it. That church has now become part of Global Legacy affiliated with Bethel church in Redding, California. I’ve been involved with charismatic churches and organizations (most notably YWAM) since then. Ok I think that is enough to let people know where I’m coming from.
This crisis of faith started when I came across this video about yoga by a former yoga instructor in the CC forums last week. (the relevant part starts at about the 8 min mark so you can skip to there if you want)
[video=youtube_share;wKwEkXcmEUQ]http://youtu.be/wKwEkXcmEUQ?t=8m8s[/video]
So I’m sitting there watching this and thinking hey, it looks like those guys getting shaktipa are getting slain in the spirit. The list of manifestations sounded a whole lot like the ones I had heard about and sometimes seen in church. This was a pretty big theological problem: either people were getting the Holy Spirit without going through Jesus, the effect of the Holy Spirit on a person’s physical behavior is exactly the same as an evil spirit, or this guy is right and some of what I have seen and thought was God might not be God at all. So I found this documentary that gives a good history of how these manifestations got started (which I’ve linked because it is about 30 min long)
After that, there were a couple rough days of initial panic and wondering if everything I know and everything I’ve been taught for the last decade was just flat out wrong and some kind of demonic deception. I’ve regained my equilibrium now and I see really only one thing to do: Look at what I’ve been taught, look at the criticisms of it, comb through the Bible to see exactly what is in there and what is not and whether all the ways teachings have been tied together hold up to such scrutiny.
So why blog such a personal journey? First because most of what is out there on either side of the debate is complete crap when it comes to helping people make an informed decision. Judgement, mockery, and a lack of love seem to predominate both sides of the debate with names like legalist, religious, pharisee, cult, demonic, false teacher being thrown around with very little support given for these accusations. I plan to keep my criticisms focused on teaching and avoid judging individuals I do not know personally. I do want to say at the outset that many of the people I know who have been influenced by the same things I have are people who love Jesus and want to know and honor him. And I hope that this blog can become a well reasoned source of information for anyone who starts asking the same questions I am.
Second. I share because I value the accountability and impartiality of a wide range of the body of Christ. I expect that buried in the negative comments that are sure to come will be some good thoughts that because of my own perspective I will not have thought of. And if I think people are expecting to read something from me it will motivate me to keep digging even when things become uncomfortable.
God promises that those who seek with all their heart will find him ( Jer 29: 13) and Jesus knew that eternal life is knowing the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he sent (John 17:3). So let’s get started on this journey of knowing God better.
I grew up in pretty much your typical small Bible based church. I learned my Bible stories in Sunday school, memory verses in an AWANA club, went to VBS, etc. During my high school years the church I was attending slowly started splitting into two factions: a more traditional faction and a charismatic faction. So in my high school years I started being exposed to the idea that God still interacts personally with people today. When I started college I started attending a Vineyard church and learning a lot about hearing from God and the prophetic, which is basically a catch all term for receiving information directly from God and moving in obedience to it. That church has now become part of Global Legacy affiliated with Bethel church in Redding, California. I’ve been involved with charismatic churches and organizations (most notably YWAM) since then. Ok I think that is enough to let people know where I’m coming from.
This crisis of faith started when I came across this video about yoga by a former yoga instructor in the CC forums last week. (the relevant part starts at about the 8 min mark so you can skip to there if you want)
[video=youtube_share;wKwEkXcmEUQ]http://youtu.be/wKwEkXcmEUQ?t=8m8s[/video]
So I’m sitting there watching this and thinking hey, it looks like those guys getting shaktipa are getting slain in the spirit. The list of manifestations sounded a whole lot like the ones I had heard about and sometimes seen in church. This was a pretty big theological problem: either people were getting the Holy Spirit without going through Jesus, the effect of the Holy Spirit on a person’s physical behavior is exactly the same as an evil spirit, or this guy is right and some of what I have seen and thought was God might not be God at all. So I found this documentary that gives a good history of how these manifestations got started (which I’ve linked because it is about 30 min long)
After that, there were a couple rough days of initial panic and wondering if everything I know and everything I’ve been taught for the last decade was just flat out wrong and some kind of demonic deception. I’ve regained my equilibrium now and I see really only one thing to do: Look at what I’ve been taught, look at the criticisms of it, comb through the Bible to see exactly what is in there and what is not and whether all the ways teachings have been tied together hold up to such scrutiny.
So why blog such a personal journey? First because most of what is out there on either side of the debate is complete crap when it comes to helping people make an informed decision. Judgement, mockery, and a lack of love seem to predominate both sides of the debate with names like legalist, religious, pharisee, cult, demonic, false teacher being thrown around with very little support given for these accusations. I plan to keep my criticisms focused on teaching and avoid judging individuals I do not know personally. I do want to say at the outset that many of the people I know who have been influenced by the same things I have are people who love Jesus and want to know and honor him. And I hope that this blog can become a well reasoned source of information for anyone who starts asking the same questions I am.
Second. I share because I value the accountability and impartiality of a wide range of the body of Christ. I expect that buried in the negative comments that are sure to come will be some good thoughts that because of my own perspective I will not have thought of. And if I think people are expecting to read something from me it will motivate me to keep digging even when things become uncomfortable.
God promises that those who seek with all their heart will find him ( Jer 29: 13) and Jesus knew that eternal life is knowing the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he sent (John 17:3). So let’s get started on this journey of knowing God better.
! I'll get right to the point here: sometimes it's real and sometimes it's faked. There are also evil forces at work that can imitate some physical things that happen in believers by manifesting "signs" in non-believers. In the church, being slain in the Spirit is very often "forced" out of a desire to produce a manifestation of the Holy Spirit in order to show off to other believers, which is TOTALLY against the Bible. It's one of the easiest things to either fake or sort of force on one's self, as when in a group setting where the Lord's praises are sung and He is being worshiped freely, people often feel very emotional and sort of light-headed anyway. Jesus said to beware of false prophets, so it's nothing new for sure. The Bible also says to not despise prophesying, but to still "prove all things". We're supposed to get a TON of peace from the Holy Spirit before acting on a prophesy rather than believing that something is from God just because someone in a church said it was. I honestly wouldn't recommend attending a church in which you didn't feel peaceful about the majority of the "prophesies". People make mistakes, and do things to get attention sometimes, but if the leaders are ENCOURAGING/COACHING physical things such as being slain in the Spirit, it's likely a group of people that simply enjoys attention and uses God's people to attempt to get it. It helps to ask in prayer for the full indwelling of the Holy Spirit in our lives in order to discern the true from the pretended and know when someone wants the glory and attention for themselves instead of the Lord 