If you believe in OSAS, please answer a few questions for me.

[elf3]

Belief or unbelief in OSAS is not a do all end all for salvation. If you believe it is then there is way more you need to study in God's Word.

 

[Budman]

I do not claim to be without sin and that scripture in 1 John is not talking about nor does it say a person will sin everyday !!!

That is a misuse of that scripture as what it actually says if we claim to of had no sin in our lives, or that we have not (past tense) sinned then we are a liar. We have to admit that we are sinners that need a savior as that is part of the clear conscious, but then you have to take into account 1 John 2:1-2 where John says he writes to us to show us how to abstain from sinning.

But if we do sin again we have an advocate in Jesus that when we confess those sins He will forgive us for them, and notice how it says "if" and not "when" showing that abstaining from sin on a day to day basis is possible thanks to the Holy Spirit who is in us.

Even Jesus says do fruits/works kept with repentance (Matthew 3:8), which means if you turn away and no longer do that sin your repentance was true but if you continue to obey it and do it then your repentance was not true.

So once again the claiming to be without sin is in response to those who say they have never ever sinned, not to those who have learned by the Spirit to abstain from committing sin on an everyday basis that may stumble at times. Even Apostle Peter says if you walk by adding the fruits of the Spirit to your life you will never stumble (2 Peter 1:5-11).

Wrong, Ken. It means exactly what it says. You can not claim to be sinless by any effort of your own. You claim, by your personal obedience, that you have gone days without committing a single sin. The Bible condemns such notions.

I have a question for you, Ken. You said the Holy Spirit would never lead you in doctrinal error. So, why should we ever read our bibles - since we can just ask you what to believe?

 

[WoundedWarrior]

Wow. Just.....wow.

You are basically claiming that the Holy Spirit only speaks the truth to you, and if anyone disagrees with you, in regard to OSAS, (or anything else, for that matter) then they are not led by the Spirit.

It's good to know that you have exclusive rights to the Holy Spirit and the truth. I guess we don't need to ever read the Bible - as you can tell us what the truth is - as you are the one "led by the Spirit."

After all, your answers to everything must be the right ones because the Holy Spirit would never lead you wrong.

Have you ever considered that the Holy Spirit is actually speaking the truth to those who believe in OSAS, and you are the one who is actually in error?

You are sounding more and more like a cult leader.

“…out of the belly of hell (i.e. “sheol,” the place of departed spirits) cried I, and thou heardest my voice” (Jonah 2:2).

Now I wonder, was Jonah actually swallowed by a great fish, or is this figurative speech? I assume KennethC and Jason0047 [think they] know the answer -- which is why I posted this; both seem to think their understandings of scriptural texts are the absolute truth. Neither seem to be willing to consider alternative possible interpretations. I've said this previously, but it seems that drunken high school dropouts are a more credible resource (Jason00047's repeated references to Alan Ballou: Who is Alan P. Ballou) for biblical interpretation than historians, theologians, and biblical scholars who have been highly regarded and respected throughout history.

How often have we heard these guys use the statement: "Your problem is not with me but it is with what Scriptures says..." -- No, dudes, our problem is with you; we cannot discuss alternate or conflicting views with you, because you refuse to understand our point(s) of view. You already consider your view(s) to be the Absolute Truth, and so you instantly lump all those who have alternate views (or challenge your views) into your category of "OSAS proponents" (while most of us aren't even advocating OSAS -- we're simply stating that we do not 100% agree with your stance) and commence the condemning of our misled, dark, evil, immoral selves.

Side note:
When I have a headache, I usually bang my head against a brick wall.

 

[KennethC]

Like you just did Kenny, by claiming exclusive rights to the truth? Thus, belittling and condemning all who believe in OSAS.

False allegations again !!!

I have never claimed exclusive rights to the truth, and I have never belittled or condemned any from the OSAS doctrine.

Before making this assumptions about others you need to study the difference in judging and reproving and rebuking of others, as there is a difference. People so often confuse these two things and try to blur them together as one, but the reproving and rebuking is to be done by using the scriptures themselves which is what I do.

Making a judgment call on another is when you use very little to no scripture at all and tell others they are condemned, or say they are following their father satan, or tell them they are going to burn for what they said.

I have never condemned another by what I have said as I have used scripture to show them how they are walking improperly in the faith and then show them by scripture how to properly walk to exhort them. This is allowed in the bible to do this, but some take that wrongly as being judgmental when it is not.

Apostle Paul whenever he came acrossed believers that were walking, talking, acting improperly he did not sit back and allow them to do it. Instead he called them out on it to correct them in their walk, and that is what I do as well, show by the scriptures how they are walking improperly to correct them.

Judging another has no thought of correcting behind it !!!

this is correct. so therefore you and others should stop saying " you think this, you believe that" when as you said above, most of us do not know each other personally. it swings both ways. you know, judge not you shall not be judged.

If you ever actual read what I say then you will see I always pose it as a question.

I do not come and flat out say you believe this or you think that, or I say it is probably from the studies you have endured.
Whenever I say something to another about their doctrine I ask them a question, and do not flat out make assumption calls on others as some have done on here to me.

Trying to tell me I sin everyday, that I believe in a works to earn salvation, or a works to maintain salvation gospel which I have never said any one of those three.

What I have done and constantly repeated is that works are proof of one who is saved and not what does the actual saving.
For the bible constantly shows a true faith is an active faith full of the fruits of the Spirit, as how many times does the bible have to say or show those who do not have or produce those fruits from the Spirit are not saved ?

 

[WoundedWarrior]

Before making this assumptions about others you need to study the difference in judging and reproving and rebuking of others, as there is a difference. People so often confuse these two things and try to blur them together as one, but the reproving and rebuking is to be done by using the scriptures themselves which is what I do.

Making a judgment call on another is when you use very little to no scripture at all and tell others they are condemned, or say they are following their father satan, or tell them they are going to burn for what they said.

In order to "rebuke/reprove" one must first make a judgement.

It seems fitting to remind people to "rebuke" those in their home churches and congregations, rather than strangers (whom they've just met) on the internet.

Matthew 7:3-5 King James Version (KJV)


3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?


4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?


5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

 

[jsr1221]

You all do realize there are two other threads that are going at it on this same subject simultaneously, right? I just hope you know how ridiculous your banting back and forth looks right now.

 

[KennethC]

Wow. Just.....wow.

You are basically claiming that the Holy Spirit only speaks the truth to you, and if anyone disagrees with you, in regard to OSAS, (or anything else, for that matter) then they are not led by the Spirit.

It's good to know that you have exclusive rights to the Holy Spirit and the truth. I guess we don't need to ever read the Bible - as you can tell us what the truth is - as you are the one "led by the Spirit."

After all, your answers to everything must be the right ones because the Holy Spirit would never lead you wrong.

Have you ever considered that the Holy Spirit is actually speaking the truth to those who believe in OSAS, and you are the one who is actually in error?

You are sounding more and more like a cult leader.

See this is exactly the type of behavior I am talking about because nowhere did I say the Holy Spirit gives the truth only to me, that is making an assumption and claim on me that I never said.

What I said is the Holy Spirit is not going to tell one person one thing and then tell another thing that contradicts what he told the other. So if the Holy Spirit shows this group of people the false teachings within a man made doctrine, then He will not tell another group they are true.

The Holy Spirit can not deny Himself, so if what is being said is contradictory to what is in the written word of God then it is not from the Holy Spirit. So if a person says a believer can not fall away from the faith, then that is not from the Holy Spirit because HE clearly says in the word that many will.

It has nothing to do with me being the only one with the truth which I am not, but what it does have to do with is testing the spirits and if they contradict what was already previously said in the word it is not from God.

Wrong, Ken. It means exactly what it says. You can not claim to be sinless by any effort of your own. You claim, by your personal obedience, that you have gone days without committing a single sin. The Bible condemns such notions.

I have a question for you, Ken. You said the Holy Spirit would never lead you in doctrinal error. So, why should we ever read our bibles - since we can just ask you what to believe?

Another false accusation because where did I ever say I have abstained from sinning on my own ???

I said thanks be to the Holy Spirit who is in me that has guided me to abstain from sins.

Then also by following the guidance of the Holy Spirit and walking in His fruits will lead one in obedience out of love and will uphold the teachings and commandments of the Lord. By keeping those teachings and commandments is not of our own doing, for it is the God Himself who showed us a better way to walk.

The Holy Spirits fruits show out in our actions, speech, and treatment of others.
It is not some invisible action that only takes place within our hearts and minds, but comes out in our outer actions as well.

We read our bibles because the Holy Spirit will guide us in the truth of what is being said, so that no private interpretations arise. The differing of doctrines come from man who place their own knowledge and man made systems above God Himself for understanding.

1 John 2:27 says that we have no need that any man should teach us, because the anointing of the Holy Spirit we have received will guide us in all truth. I have noticed from some that have gone to bible colleges that they have been taught to over complicate the word and make some scriptures pit against others.

Look on History and Discovery channels for example when they do a show about the bible, as those on those shows have gone to bible college and I would say from what I have seen 9 times out of 10 they are way off the actual teachings in the bible.

I believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior that died for my sins and rose on the third day giving me a way to be reconciled to God, and giving me the Holy Spirit to help guide me in my walk so that I will not fall away from the faith. Leading me to the promise of eternal life to those of us who continue to fight the good fight in the faith. In turn because of my faith in Him trusting in Him by love obey and defend all of His teachings and commands !!!

Apostle Paul tells us to imitate him because he imitates Christ, but that would not be possible for Paul to imitate Christ if he continued to be carnally minded and sin every single day...........

 

[KennethC]

In order to "rebuke/reprove" one must first make a judgement.

It seems fitting to remind people to "rebuke" those in their home churches and congregations, rather than strangers (whom they've just met) on the internet.

Matthew 7:3-5 King James Version (KJV)


3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?


4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?


5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

No you do not have to make a judgment on another before rebuking or reproving them, as Apostle Paul never pointed out anybody directly and said they were condemned.

He told them how to walk in the faith and how they could not walk in the faith, and if they continued down the road they are on then they would face an ending they do not want to face. He warned them without judging them, and Galatians is a clear example of this.

For he did not tell the Galatians they are condemned and going to hell, no he said who has bewitched/fooled them to no longer obey the truth and then told them the proper way to be in the faith. That is what I do !!!

And as from Matthew 7:3-5 that is only speaking to those who have not admitted their own sins and faced the fact that they are a sinner to. I have done that and when I do sin again I confuse that sin to the Lord and turn away from it, and like I said do I still struggle here or there when it comes to sin, yes I do. But once again the bible gives nowhere an excuse for everyday sinful behavior to continue, as all the teachings are to help lead us to abstain from sinning constantly like that.

 

[Budman]

What I said is the Holy Spirit is not going to tell one person one thing and then tell another thing that contradicts what he told the other. So if the Holy Spirit shows this group of people the false teachings within a man made doctrine, then He will not tell another group they are true.

You just don't get it, do you? We say OSAS is true based on the direction of the Holy Spirit, yet you claim we are in error because the Holy Spirit revealed to YOU that it is false. You ARE claiming exclusive rights to the Holy Spirit because He would never lead YOU wrong.

Along with Jason, everything centers on you, you, you.

We read our bibles because the Holy Spirit will guide us in the truth of what is being said

There is no "us" in your belief system. You are the repository of the truth because you can not be led into error. You said so. Thus, it's not a false accusation to say, as far as what you've claimed, that we should simply ask you what to believe and abandon our bibles.

YOU have the truth. YOU can't be led wrong.


Now, isn't it about time you got all "offended" and report me to the mods once again?

 

[KennethC]

Belief or unbelief in OSAS is not a do all end all for salvation. If you believe it is then there is way more you need to study in God's Word.

You are right and I do not believe that following that doctrine or not will be a salvation issue as some have done.

However with that being said it all depends on what adaptation of that doctrine you are following, because I have had some very good respectful friendly debates with others from that doctrine on here. But others are borderline and walking a form of hatred in their ways and automatically condemn others who do not agree with osas.

God's word says we are to stay in sound doctrine and that there is only one faith, one baptism, and one hope of receiving eternal life. There is not multiple paths that lead to salvation, there is only one and that faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.

Those that have this faith the bible says we will clearly know them by their actions because the fruits of the Spirit will be evident in their lives. Those that do not have those fruits it says are not His, and also teaches that those who are continuously disobedient to His teachings and commands are not His as well.

I have seen to many times people say we will not be able to tell those who are truly saved from those who are not, but that contradicts what the bible says !!!

 

[KennethC]

You just don't get it, do you? We say OSAS is true based on the direction of the Holy Spirit, yet you claim we are in error because the Holy Spirit revealed to YOU that it is false. You ARE claiming exclusive rights to the Holy Spirit because He would never lead YOU wrong.

Along with Jason, everything centers on you, you, you.



There is no "us" in your belief system. You are the repository of the truth because you can not be led into error. You said so. Thus, it's not a false accusation to say, as far as what you've claimed, that we should simply ask you what to believe and abandon our bibles.

YOU have the truth. YOU can't be led wrong.


Now, isn't it about time you got all "offended" and report me to the mods once again?

I have never claimed exclusives rights to the Holy Spirit, as there are a number of people who are guided by Him who instruct others the same way that I have done on here, as we are imitating how Paul said we are to instruct others in the faith.

What I am saying is testing the spirit needs to be done, because just one claims they are lead by the spirit it may not be the Holy Spirit. As there is another spirit in the world that is affecting the Truth of God's word and is defiling His words by adding or taking away from it, and flip flopping the scriptures around to put the teachings in reverse order.

Yes their is a us because all who have the Holy Spirit in them will be of one accord in the truth in His word, not many differing doctrines as there are now. Their is only one true doctrine in Christ and not many, and Jesus Himself in Matthew 25 showed two groups that believe in Him but He sent one to eternal death because He told them because they have denied to help others in need they have denied Him.

The bible makes it clear that you can deny the Lord by your actions, and that it is not just as simple as unbelief or belief.
For there are those who profess to know God but in works they deny Him........Titus 1:16

Can I be wrong at times....Yes I can, but can I be lead wrong............No, since it is the Holy Spirit leading who speaks nothing but the truth.

 

[Budman]

Can I be wrong at times....Yes I can, but can I be lead wrong............No, since it is the Holy Spirit leading who speaks nothing but the truth.

Well, I believe I am led by the Holy Spirit as well. And OSAS is true and biblical.

Is the Holy Spirit leading me, Ken?


Or, since I disagree with you and your Holy Spirit leading - I must be wrong?

 

[passing_through]

Here is your Eternal Security, God is satisfied with Jesus' atonement. "God saw the travail of Jesus soul and was satisfied", and was satisfied, we don't have to please God to obtain and keep our salvation. It's not work, it' not performance, it's Jesus. Praise God, Jesus save to the uttermost.

King James Bible
The Suffering Servant

(Matthew 26:57-68; Mark 14:53-65; John 18:19-24; 1 Peter 2:21-25)
1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living.

The Suffering Servant

(Matthew 26:57-68; Mark 14:53-65; John 18:19-24; 1 Peter 2:21-25)
1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
A Grave Assigned

(Matthew 27:57-61; Mark 15:42-47; Luke 23:50-56; John 19:38-42)
9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.ing: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

A Grave Assigned

(Matthew 27:57-61; Mark 15:42-47; Luke 23:50-56; John 19:38-42)
9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11He (God) shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. [Parenthesis added]

 

[WoundedWarrior]

No you do not have to make a judgment on another before rebuking or reproving them, as Apostle Paul never pointed out anybody directly and said they were condemned.

He told them how to walk in the faith and how they could not walk in the faith, and if they continued down the road they are on then they would face an ending they do not want to face. He warned them without judging them, and Galatians is a clear example of this.

For he did not tell the Galatians they are condemned and going to hell, no he said who has bewitched/fooled them to no longer obey the truth and then told them the proper way to be in the faith. That is what I do !!!

And as from Matthew 7:3-5 that is only speaking to those who have not admitted their own sins and faced the fact that they are a sinner to. I have done that and when I do sin again I confuse that sin to the Lord and turn away from it, and like I said do I still struggle here or there when it comes to sin, yes I do. But once again the bible gives nowhere an excuse for everyday sinful behavior to continue, as all the teachings are to help lead us to abstain from sinning constantly like that.

I do not consider myself to be an Apostle or "on par" with Paul, you should probably not consider yourself to be either.

My goal is to be like Jesus, not like Paul.

Edit: Besides, Paul DID make a judgement about these people -- why warn someone, if he did not see something worth warning?

 

[elf3]

You are right and I do not believe that following that doctrine or not will be a salvation issue as some have done.

However with that being said it all depends on what adaptation of that doctrine you are following, because I have had some very good respectful friendly debates with others from that doctrine on here. But others are borderline and walking a form of hatred in their ways and automatically condemn others who do not agree with osas.

God's word says we are to stay in sound doctrine and that there is only one faith, one baptism, and one hope of receiving eternal life. There is not multiple paths that lead to salvation, there is only one and that faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.

Those that have this faith the bible says we will clearly know them by their actions because the fruits of the Spirit will be evident in their lives. Those that do not have those fruits it says are not His, and also teaches that those who are continuously disobedient to His teachings and commands are not His as well.

I have seen to many times people say we will not be able to tell those who are truly saved from those who are not, but that contradicts what the bible says !!!

Why? Why could you not just leave a true statement alone instead of turning it into an argument? And yes you did as you used the word "however". It is a true statement but you need to add "however" to create an argument out of it. All you had to say was your first paragraph and leave it at that.

 

[passing_through]

Of course, we are called to please God, but not in regards of salvation.

 

[WoundedWarrior]

Why? Why could you not just leave a true statement alone instead of turning it into an argument? And yes you did as you used the word "however". It is a true statement but you need to add "however" to create an argument out of it. All you had to say was your first paragraph and leave it at that.

"I agree with you. However, I enjoy arguing and so I cannot completely agree with you."

 

[KennethC]

I do not consider myself to be an Apostle or "on par" with Paul, you should probably not consider yourself to be either.

My goal is to be like Jesus, not like Paul.

Edit: Besides, Paul DID make a judgement about these people -- why warn someone, if he did not see something worth warning?

Well the word of God tells us by Jesus and Paul's own words that we are to be as they are, and walk as they walked.
Apostle Paul even said imitate me as I imitate Christ (1 Corinthians 4:16, 11:1), as it does not state nowhere in the bible for us to thank we are lower then the Apostles.

The only thing it does say is not to place ourselves above Christ, for we are not above our Lord and Master.
We will be persecuted for our faith in Him just as He was persecuted, and we are to count it as joy when others persecute us for standing up for His teachings and commandments.

Judging a person means there is no attempt behind what you are doing to help them see the truth, and Paul did show them the truth after reproving and rebuking them. If Paul went around judging people as you say then he would not have made this statement:

"Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God." (1 Corinthians 4:5)

Why? Why could you not just leave a true statement alone instead of turning it into an argument? And yes you did as you used the word "however". It is a true statement but you need to add "however" to create an argument out of it. All you had to say was your first paragraph and leave it at that.

Why because both parts are true statements, and I did not turn it into an argument by how I presented it.
If you take it as such then you are misreading into what I had said, because both points are very true statements !!!

Of course, we are called to please God, but not in regards of salvation.

Fruits/works are proof of one who is saved, not what does the saving !!!

Without those fruits Jesus, Paul, and John all three say and show that these are not His and are not saved, because if they were they would by the Holy Spirit do what He said and walk by those fruits.

 

[WoundedWarrior]

Again with the false accusations. Where did I say I would save someone of my own power? Please go back and read what I wrote and get clarity on what I actually said.

This is everyone's first thought when you reply to them.

Would be nice, if you would heed your own advice.

 

[WoundedWarrior]

Can a person do evil and still be saved? Many here believe that. And it is wrong.

The answer to your question is: Yes.
You know this, yet disagree.
So what, then, is your purpose here if it is not to troll?

You defend your position with YOUR PERSONAL UNDERSTANDING of scripture, while telling us and those before us (theologians, historians, biblical scholars) that we're reading "out of context" or warn us to "beware the scribes" (which is out of context, but whatever).

Here's more evidence of you ignoring the wisdom of those who came before you:

Guys, I have been reading various OSAS threads here almost continuously since I first joined CC. The argument will never be won because people's own perception of God's word varies. People quote what they want to read into it both from the OT and NT and so it goes on...and on...and on...and on.


Give it up guys, there are so many other topics of equal importance! Jesus said "love one another as I have loved you". Amen to that.

But you disagree. You think you are somehow doing us a favor, because you see something so clearly -- something that we are somehow miraculously blind to.